The gods behind abortion

[kiwimac]

So life begins at breathe? Are unborns just dead clumps of cells?

The Jews describe a zef as a potential human until they are born.

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[Andrew]

The Jews describe a zef as a potential human until they are born.

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I searched for the word and got nothing, the only thing close was a name meaning "I have no child"... help me out here please

 

[kiwimac]

I searched for the word and got nothing, the only thing close was a name meaning "I have no child"... help me out here please

Zef= the three stages of growth, zygote, elastoblast, foetus. It's just an acronym.

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[Michael]

Any attempt to justify the murder of children in the womb is an abomination to God. Period.

You can dig into languages all you want and play with words, and come to a point where you satisfy your carnal selfish nature... but it will never change the FACT that abortion is the heartless slaughter of a baby in the womb.

Let's see how one struggles & fumbles trying to get around this passage -

"At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40 where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45 Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!” - Luke 1:39-45

Sorry, even if every Jewish Rabbi & Greek scholar were to be deceived and proclaim that a baby in the womb is not technically a child until it can breathe their own air, it still wouldn't cancel out the Truth of God that aborting that life in the womb is murder.

"For You fashioned my inmost being,
You knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I thank You because I am awesomely made,
wonderfully; Your works are wonders —
I know this very well.
15 My bones were not hidden from You
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes could see me as an embryo,
but in Your book all my days were already written;
my days had been shaped
before any of them existed."
- Psalm 139:13-16 CJB (Complete Jewish Bible)

If God has days planned for the baby in the womb, then obviously He doesn't view the child as a lump of cells that can be ripped apart and tossed away as garbage.
And that's good enough for me.

I stand with what God says. Where will you stand?

 

[Andrew]

Any attempt to justify the murder of children in the womb is an abomination to God. Period.

You can dig into languages all you want and play with words, and come to a point where you satisfy your carnal selfish nature... but it will never change the FACT that abortion is the heartless slaughter of a baby in the womb.

Let's see how one struggles & fumbles trying to get around this passage -

"At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40 where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45 Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!” - Luke 1:39-45

Sorry, even if every Jewish Rabbi & Greek scholar were to be deceived and proclaim that a baby in the womb is not technically a child until it can breathe their own air, it still wouldn't cancel out the Truth of God that aborting that life in the womb is murder.

"For You fashioned my inmost being,
You knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I thank You because I am awesomely made,
wonderfully; Your works are wonders —
I know this very well.
15 My bones were not hidden from You
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes could see me as an embryo,
but in Your book all my days were already written;
my days had been shaped
before any of them existed."
- Psalm 139:13-16 CJB (Complete Jewish Bible)

If God has days planned for the baby in the womb, then obviously He doesn't view the child as a lump of cells that can be ripped apart and tossed away as garbage.
And that's good enough for me.

I stand with what God says. Where will you stand?

I was thinking about those scriptures, thank you for posting them.

 

[Josiah]

Something that bothers me.....


In this thread too, we find a GREAT majority of Christians very clearly, boldly and passionately pro-life and against abortion. This is true not only at CH but at every Christian discussion forum I've ever pariticipated in. I think of my family (virtually all Catholics) and they are all pro-life (and quite open about that). And yet, in every national election in the USA for nearly 50 years, most Christians (including a large majority of Catholics) vote for RADICALLY pro-abortion politicians. They VOTE pro-abortion. They VOTE to support a policy so radically pro-abortion that it's shared only by Cuba, North Korea and China.... There was even some Democrat (sorry, don't remember the name) a few months ago arguing that abortion should be legal AFTER the child is born, a policy that would be more radical than that in North Korea, Cuba and China (where that is clearly not allowed). American Christians SAY they are very pro-life but VOTE extremely pro-abortion.

I realize they are not necessarily identical (one might hold that capitol punishment is sinful yet vote to permit it) but I see a moral conflict that bothers me - every election year.



Well, back to the topic.




.

 

[psalms 91]

Something that bothers me.....


In this thread too, we find a GREAT majority of Christians very clearly, boldly and passionately pro-life and against abortion. This is true not only at CH but at every Christian discussion forum I've ever pariticipated in. I think of my family (virtually all Catholics) and they are all pro-life (and quite open about that). And yet, in every national election in the USA for nearly 50 years, most Christians (including a large majority of Catholics) vote for RADICALLY pro-abortion politicians. They VOTE pro-abortion. They VOTE to support a policy so radically pro-abortion that it's shared only by Cuba, North Korea and China.... There was even some Democrat (sorry, don't remember the name) a few months ago arguing that abortion should be legal AFTER the child is born, a policy that would be more radical than that in North Korea, Cuba and China (where that is clearly not allowed). American Christians SAY they are very pro-life but VOTE extremely pro-abortion.

I realize they are not necessarily identical (one might hold that capitol punishment is sinful yet vote to permit it) but I see a moral conflict that bothers me - every election year.



Well, back to the topic.




.

A conflict yes, but that is not the only issue as you well know, an infomed voter will vote their best according to the whole picture although I think most vote their pocketbooks. In this area the Democrats are much better unless you are rich.

 

[hedrick]

Something that bothers me.....


In this thread too, we find a GREAT majority of Christians very clearly, boldly and passionately pro-life and against abortion.

The reason for the apparent inconsistency is that a great majority of Christians actually don't oppose abortion. The only Christian groups where a plurality think it should be illegal are evangelicals, Mormons and JWs. These evangelicals are passionately convinced that the Bible prohibits it, but many of the rest of us know it actually doesn't, and that the biological arguments aren't as strong as you think they are.

https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/views-about-abortion/

 

[MennoSota]

The reason for the apparent inconsistency is that a great majority of Christians actually don't oppose abortion. The only Christian groups where a plurality think it should be illegal are evangelicals, Mormons and JWs. These evangelicals are passionately convinced that the Bible prohibits it, but many of the rest of us know it actually doesn't, and that the biological arguments aren't as strong as you think they are.

https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/views-about-abortion/

The biological arguments support a new human being at conception with a uniquely created wiring system.
Ultimately abortion is a selfish choice spurred on by a culture that considers the weak less valuable and thus thinking that not all humans are made in the image of God.

 

[NewCreation435]

Something that bothers me.....


In this thread too, we find a GREAT majority of Christians very clearly, boldly and passionately pro-life and against abortion. This is true not only at CH but at every Christian discussion forum I've ever pariticipated in. I think of my family (virtually all Catholics) and they are all pro-life (and quite open about that). And yet, in every national election in the USA for nearly 50 years, most Christians (including a large majority of Catholics) vote for RADICALLY pro-abortion politicians. They VOTE pro-abortion. They VOTE to support a policy so radically pro-abortion that it's shared only by Cuba, North Korea and China.... There was even some Democrat (sorry, don't remember the name) a few months ago arguing that abortion should be legal AFTER the child is born, a policy that would be more radical than that in North Korea, Cuba and China (where that is clearly not allowed). American Christians SAY they are very pro-life but VOTE extremely pro-abortion.

I realize they are not necessarily identical (one might hold that capitol punishment is sinful yet vote to permit it) but I see a moral conflict that bothers me - every election year.



Well, back to the topic.




.

I really am curious about what Democrats your talking about now and how that would even be possible for an abortion after the child is born?

 

[Andrew]

I really am curious about what Democrats your talking about now and how that would even be possible for an abortion after the child is born?

As of now they create a still born, the mother still has to go through labor to deliver the still born, after the birth she has an option to have the doctor revive the still born... :/

 

[Michael]

It's truly sad that we're even having such discussions, and that anyone who claims to believe in Christ could ever attempt to justify abortion.

This shows the increasing level of deception brought about by those "principalities and rulers of darkness in the heavenlies" that seek desperately to prevent the "sons of God" from coming forth to end their reign and see them cast into the "eternal fire"; and subsequently take their rightful place as "co-heirs" with Christ Jesus to bring Life and healing and restoration to Creation.

Lord God, lift the veil from our eyes to see and understand what is going on behind the scenes. And grant us the strength to hold fast to Your Word and Truth.

 

[kiwimac]

It's truly sad that we're even having such discussions, and that anyone who claims to believe in Christ could ever attempt to justify abortion.

This shows the increasing level of deception brought about by those "principalities and rulers of darkness in the heavenlies" that seek desperately to prevent the "sons of God" from coming forth to end their reign and see them cast into the "eternal fire"; and subsequently take their rightful place as "co-heirs" with Christ Jesus to bring Life and healing and restoration to Creation.

Lord God, lift the veil from our eyes to see and understand what is going on behind the scenes. And grant us the strength to hold fast to Your Word and Truth.

Still no mention in the Bible of abortion.

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[psalms 91]

Still no mention in the Bible of abortion.

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It ihas been pointed out to you that abortion is murder, that my friend is mentioned along with verses showing that God knows a baby rather than cells when in the womb so yes it has been shown to you. If you choose to ignore it then that is your choice but to continue on when you dont accept what is shown you seems fruitless

 

[kiwimac]

It ihas been pointed out to you that abortion is murder, that my friend is mentioned along with verses showing that God knows a baby rather than cells when in the womb so yes it has been shown to you. If you choose to ignore it then that is your choice but to continue on when you dont accept what is shown you seems fruitless

Nope. Abortion is not murder. Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being. No 'foetus has full human rights or status prior to birth. Thus not murder.

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[psalms 91]

Nope. Abortion is not murder. Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being. No 'foetus has full human rights or status prior to birth. Thus not murder.

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Then we agree tio disagree and thus the end of this discussion

 

[Josiah]

Nope. Abortion is not murder. Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being.

No. The Hebrew word in "You shall not murder" (and the Greek equal in the NT) means to deliberately take an innocent, non-threatening human life. Abortion rarely is non-deliberate on the part of the medical person or the mother. Rarely has the unborn child done something that clearly deserves capitol punishment. Rarely does the unborn child present a physical threat that can only be stopped by killing them. I think abortion generally qualifies.


Your insistence that secular law "trumps" divine law is a point I reject. By your premise, Hitler was okay murdering those 6 million Jews, homosexuals, disabled persons and JW's because such was legal in Germany at the time... By your premise, it was perfectly moral for Stalin to murder perhaps 10 million "political criminals" in the USSR because that was legal in that country at the time. I disagree. Indeed..... I think your premise is an EXTREMELY DANGEROUS thing: it simply means the powerful can remove even the most fundamental of human rights simply by the function of having more power, power enough to change the law of the land.




.

 

[Michael]

Nope. Abortion is not murder. Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being. No 'foetus has full human rights or status prior to birth. Thus not murder.

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I'm guessing someone you know or love has had an abortion in the past. This is often the way of dealing with the sin... to try and justify it somehow.
No, the sin cannot be undone, but there can be forgiveness if one truly repents and takes a stand against the atrocity.

 

[hedrick]

The biological arguments support a new human being at conception with a uniquely created wiring system.
Ultimately abortion is a selfish choice spurred on by a culture that considers the weak less valuable and thus thinking that not all humans are made in the image of God.

As I’m sure you know, the Catholic tradition opposed abortion from very early. I believe they did so for at least two reasons: (1) it was non-procreative sex, (2) there was a danger of killing someone. Historically it wasn’t always considered murder. To the extent that that was an issue, it was tied up with the question of ensoullment, i.e. when a human received a soul. That was typically not considered to happen immediately. Catholics would say things like "we're not sure just when a person gets (or becomes) a soul, so to be safe w need to protect it from the beginning."

But the Protestant anti-abortion movement, starting around 1980, is different. Perhaps it’s trying to stick with arguments that aren’t religious for political reasons, not ones it believes. But the main argument seems to be that a zygote is a human being from the beginning, based purely on having human DNA. This wasn’t normally the Catholic view. Indeed the modern Protestant claims seem to ignore the whole question of what beyond a bunch of cells constitutes a human being. Whether you agree with ancient ideas of the soul or not, at least the Catholic tradition understood that a human being was more than biology.

This has dangers, as any heresy does. (It’s heresy because it confuses the image of God with biology.) One is that it complicates other areas of medical ethics, such as end of life questions. Currently most people accept that when the brain is irreversibly dead, the person is dead. We’re not just a bunch of cells, but there are other requirements to be a functional human being.

Before Rowe vs Wade, abortion was often illegal, but we didn’t have quite the current doctrinaire commitment to a fertilized ovum being a full human with human rights. This is starting to lead to odd effects, such as miscarriages being treated as potential murder. After all, if a fertilized ovum is a full human being, its death deserves investigation.

It’s hard to predict what other problem are going to arise, but you can bet there will be some. An error this basic is going to have bad effects.

 

[MennoSota]

As I’m sure you know, the Catholic tradition opposed abortion from very early. I believe they did so for at least two reasons: (1) it was non-procreative sex, (2) there was a danger of killing someone. Historically it wasn’t always considered murder. To the extent that that was an issue, it was tied up with the question of ensoullment, i.e. when a human received a soul. That was typically not considered to happen immediately.

But the Protestant anti-abortion movement, starting around 1980, is different. Perhaps it’s trying to stick with arguments that aren’t religious for political reasons, not ones it believes. But the main argument seems to be that a zygote is a human being from the beginning, based purely on having human DNA. This wasn’t normally the Catholic view. Indeed the modern Protestant claims seem to ignore the whole question of what beyond a bunch of cells constitutes a human being. Whether you agree with ancient ideas of the soul or not, at least the Catholic tradition understood that a human being was more than biology.

This has dangers, as any heresy does. (It’s heresy because it confuses the image of God with biology.) One is that it complicates other areas of medical ethics, such as end of life questions. Currently most people accept that when the brain is irreversibly dead, the person is dead. We’re not just a bunch of cells, but there are other requirements to be a functional human being.

Before Rowe vs Wade, abortion was often illegal, but we didn’t have quite the current doctrinaire commitment to a fertilized ovum being a full human with human rights. This is starting to lead to odd effects, such as miscarriages being treated as potential murder. After all, if a fertilized ovum is a full human being, its death deserves investigation.

It’s hard to predict what other problem are going to arise, but you can bet there will be some. An error this basic is going to have bad effects.

Of course a human is more than biology. A human is made in the image of God. To willfully destroy a defenseless human is an act of defiance against God himself.