The GOAL

[Michael]

Your obedience is to be faithful to God. If you knew the original languages you'd see that.

You can't remove your sins since Christ died on the cross already for your sins. He is the only one who could die for the sin of the world...you can't even come close.

I'm curious how your denomination address Paul's admonition to the saints, that they remove their sins from themselves...

"if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." - Rom 8:13

Yes, the Spirit will help us, but WE must do it. Jesus died for our "past sins" when we come to Him. (2Pet 1:9).

I know it's hard for us to receive the Truth today, leaning so much on the traditions of man built of "wood, hay & stubble." But as long as these passages remain in the Bible, I must stand upon them.

As Jesus told us - "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away." (Matt 24:35) Amen.

And John as well tells us we must "purify ourselves" (1John 3:3)

And James, writing only to "Christians" tells us "Cleanse your hands, you sinners" (James 4:8)

And Paul again, in nearly every one of his epistles, warns that if those who have been "saved" do not "crucify the flesh with its passions and desires" (Gal 5:24), and continue to sin, believing that somehow God doesn't see it, we will "not inherit the Kingdom of God."

The more I interact with people today and hear the plethora of sloppy love songs on the "Christian" radio, I'm amazed that so few in the churches today know what the Scripture teaches concerning the absolute necessity of the "believer" to "stop sinning" and actually obey the commands of our Lord if they are to inherit the promises of God to "those who overcome" in Rev 2 & 3.

“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
Put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes.
Cease to do evil,
17 Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Rebuke the oppressor;
Defend the fatherless,
Plead for the widow.

18 “Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the Lord,
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
They shall be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They shall be as wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient,
You shall eat the good of the land;
20 But if you refuse and rebel,
You shall be devoured by the sword”;
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken."
- Isaiah 1:16-20

So many church-goers today have heard verse 18 above, isolated from it's context. But we see that unless we, ourselves are "striving against sin to the shedding of our own blood" and "crucifying our flesh with it's lusts and passions" and "denying ourselves, picking up our cross and following Jesus", our current and future sins are NOT covered by His blood.

To embrace the modern belief of what salvation is we must lay aside the great bulk of the Scripture, including the Gospels. Again, all the verses used to attempt to counter what I say, I can easily fit into what the Lord has given me to teach. On the other hand, so many "doctrines" circulating today must exclude massive, ignore, or pass off onto the Jews, portions of the Word.

Again, I do believe that most on this site have a heart for Jesus and to live a life pleasing to God. In truth, I've met many over the years who in word disagree with me, but are actually striving to live righteously before God, and are really "turning from their sin." And that is all God cares about. He honestly couldn't care less what we claim to believe; He is interested only in what we do. If our behavior and works are in accordance with His Word and calling upon our lives, then He is pleased with us.

Personally, the Lord has called me to teach and share what He reveals to me with those He puts in my path. And unless He instructs, I will continue to share. He has let me know that what I'm doing is not in vain. There are those "with ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches."

Peace & Blessings to you as you walk with Jesus.

 

[Lamb]

[MENTION=1032]Michael[/MENTION], the post is too long to quote but here is the problem...Law and Gospel NEEDS to be properly distinguished. Will the Law (the things you do or don't do) bring to you eternal life? Can you live the Law perfectly as it demands? Or did Jesus do that for you? Wasn't He the unblemished lamb who died on the cross? You believe that 2 Peter says that only your past sins were forgiven...except the verse DOES NOT SAY ONLY. Read it again and then apply the other verses about that perfect lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

Forgiveness of all sins is needed for eternal life. Blood is needed for forgiveness. Can you provide either of that? If so then you think you can save yourself and that's a huge slap in the face...no, it's more than that, it's another sin of disbelief that Jesus CAN save you and died FOR YOUR SINS, not just some of them. All of them.

 

[Michael]

[MENTION=1032]Michael[/MENTION], the post is too long to quote but here is the problem...Law and Gospel NEEDS to be properly distinguished. Will the Law (the things you do or don't do) bring to you eternal life? Can you live the Law perfectly as it demands? Or did Jesus do that for you? Wasn't He the unblemished lamb who died on the cross? You believe that 2 Peter says that only your past sins were forgiven...except the verse DOES NOT SAY ONLY. Read it again and then apply the other verses about that perfect lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

Forgiveness of all sins is needed for eternal life. Blood is needed for forgiveness. Can you provide either of that? If so then you think you can save yourself and that's a huge slap in the face...no, it's more than that, it's another sin of disbelief that Jesus CAN save you and died FOR YOUR SINS, not just some of them. All of them.

Oh dear sister, I believe it's time for us to agree to disagree.
For honestly, we are not on the same page here. Not even close. I'm looking at this on a vastly different level than many others are in this thread. And that's OK. I believe I mention this in the video.
God has each of us on different points of the Journey, and we do not all have the same calling, or gifting, or destiny from the Lord.
If you are faithful in what the Lord has given and called you to, then you will hear "well done, good and faithful servant" in that Day.

Personally, I know what the Lord has called me to, and at least for me, "being saved" which I am, is only the very first step on the path He set before me. I know I must "endure til the end", "walk worthy", "purify myself" and remain "faithful" if His desire for my life is to be fulfilled in Eternity.
My goal, in fact God's goal for me, is not to go to heaven or even to just dwell on the new earth that is coming. And I'll leave it at that...

I do appreciate the opportunity to share here on this site. My prayer is that what I share encourages others and perhaps confirms what some others may have been sensing the Lord speaking to them.

Lord Bless you & keep you.
:ange06:

 

[Andrew]

Part of the problem of having a works based salvation is that you never know when you have been good enough. There is no sense of safety or security in that. I would constanly be wondering if I was good enough.

Just know that your works are profitable to mankind and don't worry about them being good enough, "works salvation" is a term that has caused a lot of trouble, I really doubt anyone really believes that Jesus was insufficient and that we have to imitate the Holy Spirit gift with great fear, we are His workmanship and no one can get away with pretending to be His workmanship "let the left know not what the right hand doeth"...

"But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men"
Titus 3:4-8

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

Just know that your works are profitable to mankind and don't worry about them being good enough, "works salvation" is a term that has caused a lot of trouble, I really doubt anyone really believes that Jesus was insufficient and that we have to imitate the Holy Spirit gift with great fear, we are His workmanship and no one can get away with pretending to be His workmanship "let the left know not what the right hand doeth"...

"But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men"
Titus 3:4-8

Trust me, people DO believe that they must play a role in their salvation. They must do something before Jesus will save them, saying the sinner's prayer for example. There are churches that teach unless you pray a prayer, of their own choosing, Christ can not save you. You have to repent and ask Him to come live in your heart. What those churches conveniently forget is that Scripture teaches that repentance is a fruit of salvation, not a cause of it.

For instance, The Assemblies of God believe that unless you speak in tongues, you are not saved. There is a lot of false teaching in churches and elsewhere about what role works play in the life of a Christian and that is why it is so important that we constantly read God's Word and make sure that what we're hearing during the Divine Service and at Bible study matches what God has written in the Bible.

 

[Michael]

For any who might be new to this forum, this thread was not begun to discuss "salvation", but to examine what the Scripture teaches is the Goal for those who have already been "saved."

Peace & Blessings, Wisdom & Understanding to all who are pressing in and striving to"lay hold of what Christ Jesus laid hold of them for", while seeking the same Goal as the Apostle Paul, indeed to "know Christ and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead." For truly we have not yet "attained." (see Phil 3:10-16)

And as Jesus Himself prayed that those He "chose" from among the "called", that they would become "one with Him as He is One with the Father." (John 17:20-23) Oh Glory, let us settle for nothing less.

Amen

https://youtu.be/-a-7UJkPhSE

 

[Andrew]

Trust me, people DO believe that they must play a role in their salvation. They must do something before Jesus will save them, saying the sinner's prayer for example. There are churches that teach unless you pray a prayer, of their own choosing, Christ can not save you. You have to repent and ask Him to come live in your heart. What those churches conveniently forget is that Scripture teaches that repentance is a fruit of salvation, not a cause of it.

For instance, The Assemblies of God believe that unless you speak in tongues, you are not saved. There is a lot of false teaching in churches and elsewhere about what role works play in the life of a Christian and that is why it is so important that we constantly read God's Word and make sure that what we're hearing during the Divine Service and at Bible study matches what God has written in the Bible.

My former church 'Pentecostal' used to proclaim with a loud voice "You must repent! You must be baptised in Jesus name! You must speak in tongues!!" so I hear you loud in clear... I guess what I was getting at is do those people actually believe, I mean deep deep down, that they aren't just following a man made dogma?
The Pastor of that church I can tell did not really believe what was coming out of his mouth, and the worship leaders always seemed lenient to the majority of members who didn't claim to have certain spiritual gifts, I myself got caught up and asked to be baptised and they set it all up and a worship leader said to me "so I'm supposed to ask you if you have repented of your sins or not"... it wasn't even a direct question but I said yes of course!
The members and guest in the pews had to have known (I can see it in their reactions or lack thereof) that the pastor wasn't actually meaning what he said about those who don't speak in tongues aren't believers.. I just know that "works salvation" to them was seen as an exploitation of faith because they already had it, nobody was struggling with their faith it looked but for me and I'm sure others -after a while the whole act of turning on and off emotions by a change of tone and upbeat to emotional music -became too apparent and once you notice it and become less enthusiastic for others to see, they would say they "sense" a dark energy around you and make a spectacle out of praying over you with shouting and crying... maybe you're right, maybe some do actually believe that they must maintain their salvation by showing off their works.. but deep down I believe they just need to stop kidding themselves and stop lying to sound good, that's the great deception that caused us to fall in the first place, knowing good and evil to practice deception so to create a world that benefits ones self instead of what God had created for all humanity, man thought he could become like God and become creators of worlds but it was all vanity and ego pride, trying to become as perfect and sufficient as God but always falling short.

 

[Lamb]

For any who might be new to this forum, this thread was not begun to discuss "salvation", but to examine what the Scripture teaches is the Goal for those who have already been "saved."

Peace & Blessings, Wisdom & Understanding to all who are pressing in and striving to"lay hold of what Christ Jesus laid hold of them for", while seeking the same Goal as the Apostle Paul, indeed to "know Christ and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead." For truly we have not yet "attained." (see Phil 3:10-16)

And as Jesus Himself prayed that those He "chose" from among the "called", that they would become "one with Him as He is One with the Father." (John 17:20-23) Oh Glory, let us settle for nothing less.

Amen

https://youtu.be/-a-7UJkPhSE

The goal is eternal life...which is salvation. Let's get the terminology settled. YOU seem to use terms differently than most people and you admittedly do it as well as admit to not believing what mainstream Christianity believes concerning Jesus and His death on the cross.

 

[Lamb]

Trust me, people DO believe that they must play a role in their salvation. They must do something before Jesus will save them, saying the sinner's prayer for example. There are churches that teach unless you pray a prayer, of their own choosing, Christ can not save you. You have to repent and ask Him to come live in your heart. What those churches conveniently forget is that Scripture teaches that repentance is a fruit of salvation, not a cause of it.

For instance, The Assemblies of God believe that unless you speak in tongues, you are not saved. There is a lot of false teaching in churches and elsewhere about what role works play in the life of a Christian and that is why it is so important that we constantly read God's Word and make sure that what we're hearing during the Divine Service and at Bible study matches what God has written in the Bible.

You're correct that there are churches that teach we must do works or we can't be with God for all eternity. But that's not what the bible teaches and it is part of the devil's plan to turn men away from trusting in the blood of the Savior who takes away the sin of the world.

ohn 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Corinthians 28-31 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”

Men need to stop boasting about themselves (their works, their supposed sinful lives) and boast in Jesus for their eternal life.

 

[Michael]

The goal is eternal life...which is salvation. Let's get the terminology settled. YOU seem to use terms differently than most people and you admittedly do it as well as admit to not believing what mainstream Christianity believes concerning Jesus and His death on the cross.

Oh dear sister, again, I believe it's time for us to agree to disagree. "Eternal Life" and "salvation", at least according to the Scripture, are world's apart. The 'Mainstream Christian Religion' has mistakenly made them synonyms.
When Isaiah, Jeremiah, Paul, and Peter, and other prophets of God proclaimed Truth among God's people, "most people" told them they were wrong.

And again, we are not on the same page here. Not even close. I'm looking at this on a vastly different level than many others are in this thread. And that's OK. I believe I mention this in the video.
God has each of us on different points of the Journey, and we do not all have the same calling, or gifting, or destiny from the Lord.
If you are faithful in what the Lord has given and called you to, then you will hear "well done, good and faithful servant" in that Day.

Personally, I know what the Lord has called me to, and at least for me, "being saved" which I am, is only the very first step on the path He set before me. I know I must "endure til the end", "walk worthy", "purify myself" and remain "faithful" if His desire for my life is to be fulfilled in Eternity.
My goal, in fact God's goal for me, is not to go to heaven or even to just dwell on the new earth that is coming. And I'll leave it at that...

I do appreciate the opportunity to share here on this site. My prayer is that what I share encourages others and perhaps confirms what some others may have been sensing the Lord speaking to them.

Lord Bless you & keep you.
:ange06:

 

[popsthebuilder]

I agree with what you're saying here, if we're looking at our individual walk and calling in this life.
But what I'm looking at in the video (which I'm guessing you haven't watched, which is fine) is the ultimate Eternal Goal that God has called His Elect to in Jesus Christ.

The message of the teaching is not for all, or even most. God's plan is to have a remnant united to Christ, His "co-heirs" who will "sit with Him on His Throne" ruling over the saved nations of the earth in Eternity. My message is to those who feel that calling far beyond "being saved"; who desire, as Paul, to "know Christ, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from among the dead" (Phil 3:10-11); who will truly "deny themselves, pick up their cross daily and follow Jesus" (Luke 9:23), "presenting their body a living sacrifice" (Rom 12:1), that they might actually become "One with Him as He is One with the Father" (John 17:21), and be counted among "those who overcome" and receive the promises of God in Revelation 2 & 3.

Peace & Blessings as you walk with Jesus.

The elect are so for the reconciliation of all things are they not?

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[popsthebuilder]

The "Remnant" of believers who will have eternal life are there because of "by grace through faith" which it has been since Genesis. God is always the one who keeps a remnant and He is the one who grows His children. It is entirely because of God that you will have eternal life, you can't work your way into it because scriptures have stated thus.

You ever notice how a plant turns towards the light.....actively?

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[popsthebuilder]

Dear friend, I have listened, and even considered. And I've heard that understanding from many denominations over the years.

Let me ask you... we know from the Scripture that "Eternal salvation" comes to those who are obedient. (Heb 5:9). Can we agree on that?
What must we be obedient to? There is no command to just 'believe' or 'have faith' or 'accept Jesus' as I've heard some preach from pulpits. Other than a elementary isolated glance at 1John 3:23, there is no Bible for that. So what must we obey. I contend that we must obey God's commands given through Jesus & His Apostles, if we are to truly receive "eternal salvation."

Again, Jesus cannot be obedient for us. I know some believe that, but the Bible doesn't' teach that. Jesus is obedient to God and remains in His love, we must be obedient to Jesus if we are to remain in His love. (John 15:10). We are Jesus' friends if we "obey Him" (John 15:14). We are "sons & daughters" of God if we repent and obey (2Cor 6:17-18). I swear that word "if" is missed sometimes because it is so short!

I know these verses are not taught, or are glossed over in most churches, but they are just as True as such verses as John 3:16, Romans 10:9-10 and Eph 2:8-9, which themselves are True, but do not cancel out or supersede the great multitude of passages & entire chapters of Scripture which I've quoted from extensively to confirm what I teach.


the bottom line is... The Truth of God is not contained in any denomination. Every single denomination I have been involved with or participated in - Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, Foursquare, Calvary, AoG, and even couple 'non-denominational' fellowships - have their "statement of faith" or rules by which they abide. None of them have all Truth. And neither do I; I only know what the Holy Spirit reveals to me. In the end, only what the Scripture declares will stand. All I present in the videos, essays and Bible Studies I share on here and teach in churches, is in accordance with the Bible. And much of what I present seems to be seldom taught in any church or denomination. Most every church, save one, that I've attended, has a couple dozen verses which they emphasize greatly: usually the ones that appear to tell the congregation that "faith alone", without a single drop of effort on their part, will grant them the promises of God. Again, if that were True, then 95% of the New Testament, which stresses the need for Repentance (an actual turning from sin, not just a mental attitude), Obedience, Denial of self. and Faithfulness... to prove (to God, not to man) that we are indeed "Worthy" (not because He is worthy, but by what we have done with what He gave us) to enter into "Tabernacles" with God.

The video, which most of the good folks on here haven't' watched, touches on these things.

I wonder how many film critics write columns about movies they never saw? Hmm... would that really be fair? Wouldn't it be better if they actually commented on something they had seen and heard? op2:

Peace & Blessings :ange06:

You've made your point quite clearly without the video my friend.

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[Lamb]

You ever notice how a plant turns towards the light.....actively?

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The reason it's a plant isn't because it actively turned to the light. It's a plant because the master turned the seed into a plant by watering it and feeding it. The plant did not make itself a plant.

 

[popsthebuilder]

The reason it's a plant isn't because it actively turned to the light. It's a plant because the master turned the seed into a plant by watering it and feeding it. The plant did not make itself a plant.

Of course the plant didn't create itself, nor do we create our own faith. But our faith can grow or not dependent upon if we turn towards GOD or away.

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[Lamb]

Of course the plant didn't create itself, nor do we create our own faith. But our faith can grow or not dependent upon if we turn towards GOD or away.

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The Holy Spirit is in charge of growing us. We turn away because we are still in these sinful bodies. But we're believers only because of God. Not because of anything we have done.

 

[Michael]

The elect are so for the reconciliation of all things are they not?

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Yes indeed. Through Christ (Head & Body) all things will be reconciled to God.

Of a Truth, the nations, all creation, and the Lord Jesus Himself, are waiting for God's Elect to come to maturity

"the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." - Rom 8:19-21

This IS the Goal. For the Elect to be united to Christ Jesus, and become "One with Him as He is One with the Father." (John 17:21-23) Because, only THEN will the world, the nations, believe and be set free.


"He who has an ear let him hear..."

 

[Michael]

The goal is eternal life...which is salvation. Let's get the terminology settled. YOU seem to use terms differently than most people and you admittedly do it as well as admit to not believing what mainstream Christianity believes concerning Jesus and His death on the cross.

Amen. I DO indeed make a vital distinction between "Eternal Life" and "salvation." For Jesus, John, Paul, Peter, James, Jude and the writer of Hebrews does as well.

Oh yes, these men of God and I use these terms differently than man's modern understanding. I am not responsible for how others handle these aspects of God's great plan & purpose. I can only go by the Scripture, and the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

But it is the Word of God, not man's, that I must obey, heed and teach.

Peace upon your heart & home, my friend. Let not our doctrinal understanding cause us to be divided. For it is to a "unity of the faith" not doctrine, in which the Body of Christ will come to maturity. (Eph 4:13)

Amen

 

[popsthebuilder]

The Holy Spirit is in charge of growing us. We turn away because we are still in these sinful bodies. But we're believers only because of God. Not because of anything we have done.

Scriptural reference for the Spirit of GOD causing our faith to grow regardless of what we do or say please. I know that isn't what you are saying; but it could easily be taken that way.

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[Lamb]

Scriptural reference for the Spirit of GOD causing our faith to grow regardless of what we do or say please. I know that isn't what you are saying; but it could easily be taken that way.

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Paul speaks about the struggles of being in the sinful body and being faithful in the book of Romans.

Romans 8:4 The Holy Spirit should control the way we live.