The 5 points of TULIP for 1689Dave

[Lucian Hodoboc]

So you and Eve have both chosen to believe that YOUR VIEW is better than God’s word.

Wrong. Eve (presumably) heard God. With her own ears. I did not. I was merely told that a book was His word. No God spoke to me to confirm that it was.

Do you trust YOU or do you trust GOD?

I will trust God when I have enough reason to trust God. So far, I don't think I do. And if I am wrong for thinking so, then may God forgive me.

Could you also address my questions?

 

[atpollard]

Points 4 & 5 feature coerced salvation by works. Calvin was a Universal atonement buff and this squares with his misunderstanding.

So you have said.

Yet, 4 is: “God brings his Elect to salvation through an internal call, which they are powerless to resist.” which says NOTHING about works, so your statement is false.

[It is completely a side point, but the 5 points come from the Synod of Dort and not from John Calvin … although the mnemonic TULIP didn’t appear until the 20th Century.]

 

[atpollard]

Could you also address my questions?

I did. (Your premise and accusations were false).

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

I did. (Your premise and accusations were false).

What premise? I asked a simple question: is our definition of the word "kindness" flawed according to God's morality? Yes or no?

 

[Albion]

Wrong. Eve (presumably) heard God. With her own ears. I did not. I was merely told that a book was His word.

If you don't believe the book, that probably does explain why you cannot believe that God is kind but that some people can refuse even the best deals that are offered to them and instead trust to their own efforts when it comes to the future.

But for Christians, the answer to the problem that arose a few posts back is still made clear in Genesis. You know--creation, Adam and Eve, don't eat of the fruit, both parents of the human race decide to go with the Serpent instead and reaped what they sowed, not that this was what God had wanted, but what Adam and Eve chose for themselves.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

If you don't believe the book, that probably does explain why you cannot believe that God is kind but that some people can refuse even the best deals that are offered to them and instead trust to their own efforts when it comes to the future.

I don't find belief to be volitional, so you saying that "I don't believe the book" makes no sense to me, as I am unable to choose to believe if I am not convinced of something.

I have tried to act as if I believed, by repeatedly reading the Bible and praying almost daily for two years. My belief did not increase. I felt like a hypocrite. Pretending to believe is not the same thing as actually believing.

And saying that I don't want to believe (like some Christians have accused me) despite the fact that I actually tried to force myself to believe is nonsensical.

 

[atpollard]

That's absolute nonsense because they did not consent to being created and to living by God's rules. They did not ask to be brought into existence. When you bring someone into existence, you're responsible for that being to the best of your abilities. And when your abilities are infinite, you're responsible for that being for as long as the being exists.

Romans 1:18-22 [NKJV]
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown [it] to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible [attributes] are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools,​

From just this one passage alone, YOU stand condemned without needing to have heard any of the Bible and irrespective of anything that Adam or Eve did. You have earned the wrath of God for your refusal to acknowledge Him as God and offer to Him the respect which He is due.

[Just for the record, EVERYONE fails this test … it was the First and Greatest Commandment and we all disobey it.]

 

[atpollard]

What premise? I asked a simple question: is our definition of the word "kindness" flawed according to God's morality? Yes or no?

No.

 

[Albion]

I don't find belief to be volitional, so you saying that "I don't believe the book" makes no sense to me, as I am unable to choose to believe if I am not convinced of something.

In other words, you don't believe the Bible. That is what you told me in the earlier post (" Eve [presumably] heard God. With her own ears. I did not. I was merely told that a book was His word..")

No explanations about why you don't believe that account in Genesis are necessary.

I have tried to act as if I believed, by repeatedly reading the Bible and praying almost daily for two years. My belief did not increase. I felt like a hypocrite. Pretending to believe is not the same thing as actually believing.

Hey! No explanations are necessary.

I simply told you where the Christian answer to your question is to be found...and you since have said you are familiar with it. So that's the reason God is kind, after all, and not cruel as you suggested he is.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

From just this one passage alone, YOU stand condemned without needing to have heard any of the Bible and irrespective of anything that Adam or Eve did. You have earned the wrath of God for your refusal to acknowledge Him as God and offer to Him the respect which He is due.

I don't agree with that verse because my perception of reality shows differently. Even if it is God's word, even if God Himself said that verse, my perception of reality still shows differently. So I will tell God this fact, that His reality and my reality show differently. I am unable to change my perception of reality. Any reasonably Being would not punish someone for something that they cannot do.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

In other words, you don't believe the Bible. That is what you told me in the earlier post (" Eve [presumably] heard God. With her own ears. I did not. I was merely told that a book was His word..")

No explanations about why you don't believe that account in Genesis are necessary.



Hey! No explanations are necessary.

I simply told you where the Christian answer to your question is to be found...and you since have said you are familiar with it. So that's the reason God is kind, after all, and not cruel as you suggested he is.

I don't understand why you keep mentioning Genesis. I read it. I did not find the answer there. I'm not saying that the answer is not there, but that I did not find it. If you found it, please share it with me.

 

[Albion]

I don't understand why you keep mentioning Genesis. I read it. I did not find the answer there.

Very well, but what are we Christians supposed to do? The answer that we accept and believe IS there, and if you don't accept it yourself, there's no reason why you should be talking as though there's no basis for us to believe as we do.

I'm not saying that the answer is not there, but that I did not find it. If you found it, please share it with me.

I have done so. In the past several posts (well, more than "several" ).

 

[atpollard]

If you have 3 children

We are not God’s children. God is the creator and we are His creation.

If I form three clay pots, what moral obligation do I have to love those clay pots?

That God chooses to adopt some of His creation and treat them as His Children, speaks of the grace [unmerited favor] of God and not a moral obligation of every potter to every pot.

 

[atpollard]

I ask this because the kindness the U in TULIP presents doesn't align with the definition from the dictionary. Being able to save everyone and refusing to do so, but rather choosing to save only some and let others suffer for eternity does not correspond to our current understanding of the word "kindness".

God never promised “kindness” to His enemies.
God promised to store up wrath for the day of wrath.
God promised forgiveness for all who believe in Jesus.

Why do you shake your fist at God for keeping His promise?

 

[atpollard]

Points 4 & 5 feature coerced salvation by works. Calvin was a Universal atonement buff and this squares with his misunderstanding.

Point 5 claims “The Elect cannot lose their salvation. Salvation is the work of God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, so it cannot be thwarted. None God has called will be lost, they are eternally secure. Technically, it is God who perseveres, not the saints.” and, thus, have NOTHING to do with any human works. Your claim is false.

 

[atpollard]

deleted.

 

[tango]

Yes, you are. But only temporarily.

If that homeless guy decides he doesn't want to be in a nice warm hotel room, checks out and sleeps in a box under a bridge and ends up freezing to death, do I become less kind because he died?

 

[tango]

Wrong. Eve (presumably) heard God. With her own ears. I did not. I was merely told that a book was His word. No God spoke to me to confirm that it was.

Read Genesis 2 and see the sequence:

2:7 - God formed man
2:8 - God created a garden and put the man in it
2:9 - God caused things to grow in the garden (including the forbidden tree)

2:16-17 - God told the man he could eat anything except the forbidden fruit
2:18 - God said man shouldn't be alone
2:21-22 - God created woman

So according to this timeline Eve didn't exist when the instruction not to eat the forbidden fruit was given so a more reasonable assumption would be that she heard the rule from Adam rather than directly from God.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

I have done so. In the past several posts (well, more than "several" ).

Could you quote the post where you mentioned the answer? I can't find it.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

If I form three clay pots, what moral obligation do I have to love those clay pots?

If you form 3 clays pots that have consciousness and can experience physical and emotional pain, most people would agree that sending two of them to be tortured for eternity makes you an evil being.