Sinners Prayer in the Bible?

[Josiah]

The prayer does nothing though to earn or receive salvation which was won at the cross for us. It's the Gospel that brings that good news to us, faith comes by hearing the word of God. Any prayer said is done by faith...which means that the prayer DID NOTHING since faith was already given. I've seen a lot of people on forums claim that it was the prayer that saved them instead of putting their focus on the Savior who saves.

When I was a boy... homeschooled via a big Baptist school..... I had to participate in a group once a month at the school with some of my fellow homeschooled peers.... And I had to attend worship at that HUGE church (all the awards, graduations, etc. happened during worship) now and then. The BAPTIST preacher there once made an interesting comment. I can't quote him but it was something like this: IF your heart is pounding.... your palms are sweeting.... you feel the Spirit PUSHING you to respond to the "Altar Call" - then you ALREADY have faith, you ALREADY have the spirit, you are ALREADY a Christian - you are just finally experiencing the Spirit's conviction and your faith's call. He explained a "Altar Call" not so much as deciding as declaring. As a Lutheran, I can "buy" that (although I don't think it should be called "decision" if it's not deciding!).


Again, my problem is not with "The Sinner's Prayer" per se..... and certainly not with helping little ole' ladies across the street or repenting of our sins. I just think that those things are not the cause of our justification (rather than Jesus and the Cross), I don't even think that DEAD people CAN do those things in any spiritual way or any way acceptable to God (dead people can't do much that's good). People who have been made alive.... people who got saved.... they can, but that's a result of the enlivening of God, a result of the Cross, not the cause of it. The "problem" with "Hoop Jumping Christians" is it all makes a mockery of Jesus, it all makes Jesus small and self large, it places the final reason for my entering heaven with ME and the very, very cheap price I paid instead of on Jesus and the very precious price He paid. (And it creates a "terror of the conscience" because if it depends even 1% on ME, how can I do I didn't mess up my 1%?)

 

[Albion]

The prayer does nothing though to earn or receive salvation which was won at the cross for us.

I think we all agree to that...and so do the churches which utilize the Sinners Prayer (even though our friend MennoSota reports that he encountered a case where it did not appear to be holding true).

 

[Josiah]

I think we all agree to that...and so do the churches which utilize the Sinners Prayer.

... I'm not at all sure of that. Indeed, the conversations I've had with such - in person and on the 'net - have pretty much convinced me it's exactly the opposite. I think those who teach that justification is a matter of Jesus + me, His works + mine, actually believe that it's NOT a case of Jesus saving us, NOT a case of the Cross saving us, not a case of grace alone. MY experience is that often, it IS a case of "I did the part that actually means I'm going to heaven." Just my experience. I'm not saying it's always the case.

 

[Albion]

Just so we are clear. The reference in "I did the part that actually means I'm going to heaven" means "I said those words, so I am guaranteed of salvation?" Is that right?

And that leads me to several other thoughts...

1. Are these just your average everyday dopes who didn't understand at all what was going on?

2. Did the ministers who led people through the prayer present it that way--the words, if said aloud, is all that you need to be saved?


.

 

[Josiah]

Just so we are clear. The reference in "I did the part that actually means I'm going to heaven" means "I said those words, so I am guaranteed of salvation?" Is that right?

I said nothing of our works (rather than Jesus') "guaranteeing" anything..... indeed, I think it makes much very uncertain (unless one can be perfect as God is perfect, holy as much as God is, loving as much as Jesus is on the Cross).... I ONLY disagreed with the implication that it's grace PLUS me saying some words (which I label "the sinner's prayer").

1. Are these just your average everyday dopes who didn't understand at all what was going on?

I would never characterize them as such. I don't even call Muslims or Jews or Buddhist "dopes". But I do believe that those who reject Grace ALONE - Christ ALONE - Faith ALONE.... who hold that what Jesus did is NOT what saves us but rather what WE do (like saying some words or helping X number of little ole ladies across the street or sufficiently surrendering to God the steering wheel of our life) THAT is what means we'll come to life, we'll be justified (narrow) .... I think that does make a mockery of Christ and the Cross, I think it DOES bring into question whether they hold that Jesus is the Savior (or maybe Jesus is my Helper or maybe Jesus is the Possibility-Maker creating a situation where I can save myself). Again, IMO, if Jesus is the Savior then Jesus is the Savior (and thus not me) and Jesus does the saving (not me) ['saving' here in the sense of narrow justification].

I can only speak for me and my experience, but yes - in discussing justification (narrow) - I have OFTEN heard and read some insist things such as, "Yes, we are saved by grace BUT FIRST you gotta do x,y,z." IMO, the "but" negates the grace..... and the "YOU GOTTA" makes self ultimately the savior of self. Whether they've "thought that through" or not, I can't with confidence say, only that when it's pointed out, they defend their point and insist that we DO gotta do. Or as one (a minister btw) stated to me over at CF, "Jesus did 99% of what's needed, but you have to do the last 1%." He's ordained so I think he did probably think that out. And in my Catholic days, I was told (in these verbatim words), "Jesus opened the gate to heaven but you gotta get yourself through them by what you do." Now, yes - this "you save yourself" position takes various forms.... Catholics place an emphasis on love and works, some others on decisions and words - but it's the same theology, same point.

But yes, I think there's MORE certainty in believing Jesus has got this than in believing that I do (I know me too well for that); I think there's more assurance in holding "In God I trust" than "In Me I trust." But I guess that depends on the size of one's ego.


Thank you!


Pax CHRISTI


- Josiah




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[Imalive]

Just so we are clear. The reference in "I did the part that actually means I'm going to heaven" means "I said those words, so I am guaranteed of salvation?" Is that right?

And that leads me to several other thoughts...

1. Are these just your average everyday dopes who didn't understand at all what was going on?

2. Did the ministers who led people through the prayer present it that way--the words, if said aloud, is all that you need to be saved?


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https://www.charismamag.com/spirit/spiritual-growth/18158-8-signs-of-hypergrace-churches

 

[Albion]

Imalive, I don;t know what you want to point me to in that Charisma article. If there was something about the subject here, I must have missed it.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

As you can see from the above posts that I quoted from, the suggestion was made that the Sinners Prayer itself will save a person. I do not think that people/churches/evangelists/etc who deal in the Sinners Prayer think that it does!

So I asked the question. In other words, are the folks who are ridiculing the use of the Sinners Prayer misrepresenting what it is all about? I think so. And if you agree to that, you and I are on the same side with this.

For the most part, we are. I wasn't sure about the "exclusion of contrition" part of your quote (but that was a few pages back now). It appears that some make it a requirement, and some may not.

 

[Imalive]

Imalive, I don;t know what you want to point me to in that Charisma article. If there was something about the subject here, I must have missed it.

That nowadays there are a lot of these false grace churches where they indeed say pray a prayer (in which some even leave the repenting of sin out) and youre saved and once saved always saved, it's all grace, so go fornicate and do drugs and lead the worship team.
There are a lot of Dutch evangelicals who live in fornication and believe they're saved because they said the sinners prayer. They do not preach on sin.
One girl on a Dutch forum asked her Belgian evangelical pastor if it was okay that she had sex w her boyfriend. He said: yes hear, the Lord is fine w that.

 

[Albion]

That nowadays there are a lot of these false grace churches where they indeed say pray a prayer (in which some even leave the repenting of sin out) and youre saved and once saved always saved, it's all grace, so go fornicate and do drugs and lead the worship team.

Nothing about the Sinners' Prayer, then? I mean, we all know that there are *bad apples* among the churches and in the ministry, but I don't think there was anything there about the Sinners Prayer. However, I will take another look.

 

[Josiah]

"Once saved, always saved" is a different topic, proclaimed by a very, very small minority of uber-Calvinists....... I doubt any Pelagians who believe that saying the Sinner's Prayer save us would also be uber-Calvinists but who knows....



In my experience, it is remarkably common that folks reject Grace Alone/Jesus as the Savior and instead hold that ultimately it's an achievement of self. I was consistently taught that in my Catholic years ("Jesus opened the gate to heaven but you gotta get yourself through that gate by what you do" Etc.) and I've heard the same thing from a lot of "Evangelicals" ("Jesus did 99% of what it takes to be saved but you gotta do the last 1% by inviting Jesus into your heart" or "Jesus offers to save you but you gotta accept the offer or it's all in vain").


In terms of justification (narrow), I find nearly all SAY "Grace, we are saved by grace" but there are two problems:

1) They effectively define "grace" as HELP, enabling - from Jesus (especially Catholics) or the Holy Spirit (especially Protestants), just help. Power we "tap" in order to save ourselves.

2) They reject the "alone." "Yeah, we are saved by God's grace but first you gotta say the sinner's prayer..... but first you gotta help enough little ole ladies across the street to earn God's favior.... but first you gotta repent of your sins..... but first you gotta invite Jesus into your heart..... but first you gotta surrender the steering wheel of your life to God.... but first ... but first....but first... but first. In other words, it's not God's grace (a free gift, a miracle, a blessing) at all. YOU pay for it, YOU earn it, YOU achieve it, YOU do it - at the incredibly cheap price of a few words or an invitation or helping "X" number of little old ladies across the street. Jesus isn't the reason you're going to heaven, YOU are - YOU did the thing that actually determines if you go to heaven or the alternative. I've read that over and over and over. I've heard it over and over and over. I was taught that for years by all my Christian teachers in the RCC. I've read it in post after post.


The problem is not with saying a prayer or helping little old ladies across the street or surrendering to God the steering wheel of your life. The problem is thinking by doing that, you save yourself. Making a mockery of Jesus, displacing the Cross, making Jesus as small and irrelevant as possible while making self as big as possible and ultimately the savior of self. That, IMO, is the problem. That, IMO, is when these things become problematic rather than good.


My perspective and experience....


Pax Christi


- Josiah




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[MennoSota]

When my dad was saved in the mid-1950s, his pastor was solid in theology. The pastor, 20 years later, started preaching abusive grace. He would curse from the pulpit and he had multiple affairs, which he dismissed by saying "God forgives me. His grace is greater than my sin." (He neglected to apply Romans 6.)
In the early 80s, this pastor died when a fire started in his house and he could not get out from the basement. My thought is that God had had enough of this pastors actions.

 

[Albion]

"Once saved, always saved" is a different topic, proclaimed by a very, very small minority of uber-Calvinists....... I doubt any Arminianists who believe that saying the Sinner's Prayer save us would also be uber-Calvinists but who knows....
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Right. I had the same reaction earlier when I read that OSAS comment you are referring to. It is indicative of what's amiss with this thread. The subject of the thread is one thing, but a half-dozen modifications of it have become big themes in replies written by various people in response to the OP.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I know some people online who teach that if one says the magic words then one is instantly saved for all eternity and that salvation can never be undone! A Presbyterian chap that I know espoused it online. Which seemed odd to me because my experience with Presbyterians was not like that. "The Perseverance of the Saints" chapter in the Westminster Confession of Faith doesn't paint a "once saved always saved" picture; its picture is more a case of "Once elect always elect" mixed with the difficulty of obtaining assurance that one really is elect and not merely self-deceived. But the idea of self-deception and of being deceived by false teaching is not a major theme when personal assurance of one's alleged salvation is under discussion. Many professing Christians who adhere to one form or another of "eternal security" prefer to assume that their "salvation" is real and only raise matters of deception and false teaching when applying it to others with whom they disagree on some theological matters.

 

[Imalive]

Nothing about the Sinners' Prayer, then? I mean, we all know that there are *bad apples* among the churches and in the ministry, but I don't think there was anything there about the Sinners Prayer. However, I will take another look.

Evangelicals all teach the sinners prayer. Combine it w false grace and tada do what you want, saying a prayer saves you.

 

[Albion]

Evangelicals all teach the sinners prayer.

That's clearly incorrect to say.

Combine it w false grace and tada do what you want, saying a prayer saves you.

Sure...IF you do that.

The error here on this thread has been the persistent claim that any time the Sinners Prayer is used by anyone, it MUST mean that the idea is also being preached that merely saying the words will save, in the absence of any contrition or conversion or grace or anything else.

 

[Lamb]

That's clearly incorrect to say.


Sure...IF you do that.

The error here on this thread has been the persistent claim that any time the Sinners Prayer is used by anyone, it MUST mean that the idea is also being preached that saying the words saves, in the absence of any contrition or conversion or grace or anything else being necessary.

The prayer doesn't save at all though.

 

[Albion]

That's right. It's simply a handy, suggested prayer of contrition and commitment that any person who has decided to renounce his old life and accept Christ as Lord and Savior can use for convenience.

I am sure that if a church that was conducting a revival, let's say, had some people give their lives to Christ, it would be just as satisfied if those people made a confession in their own words.

 

[MennoSota]

This is slightly off topic, but connected:
I am put-off by churches and Christian organizations that use the sinners prayer to tally up the "converts" they generated as a ministry. These are generally good organizations, but they inadvertently turn the sinners prayer into a tally mark.
Perhaps the most prominent organization is the Billy Graham Association and its offspring, Samaritans Purse. Many other Arminian (free-will) groups have adopted the tally-mark policy as well. It seems to be a marketing scheme to attract donations and instill pride in the organization, all guised as a humble servant of God.

 

[Imalive]

This is slightly off topic, but connected:
I am put-off by churches and Christian organizations that use the sinners prayer to tally up the "converts" they generated as a ministry. These are generally good organizations, but they inadvertently turn the sinners prayer into a tally mark.
Perhaps the most prominent organization is the Billy Graham Association and its offspring, Samaritans Purse. Many other Arminian (free-will) groups have adopted the tally-mark policy as well. It seems to be a marketing scheme to attract donations and instill pride in the organization, all guised as a humble servant of God.

It may be true but what's the use of getting thousands of baby christians and give em no follow up?