Sinless Mary

[Arsenios]

The Apostolic Church I belong to does not, so you're wrong there.

It did so for the first 1500 years of its existence...

Do you know when it changed?

The actual "official" catechism of the Orthodox Faith is contained in its Orthros Services which take a year to hear if you attend every Orhros Service every day...

So that if you are doing the Service of Matins (Orthros) daily, as a part of your practice of your Faith, then you will be able to discern your Church's teaching on this matter...

We recently tried to establish Communion with the Anglicans, but some dogmatic differences prevented it from happening, and now Episcopalians are embracing actively practicing homosexual Bishops and women priests...

But we tried, at least...


Arsenios

 

[Albion]

It did so for the first 1500 years of its existence...

If we are speaking of Holy Tradition now, tell me what you know. There aren't any two churches that claim to go by HT which have come up with the same set of doctrines that supposedly are proven by reference to Tradition.

We recently tried to establish Communion with the Anglicans, but some dogmatic differences prevented it from happening, and now Episcopalians are embracing actively practicing homosexual Bishops and women priests...

But we tried, at least...

Who, exactly, is the we in that statement? And who are the Anglicans mentioned? And what were the ground rules for establishing the proposed communion? It's rare for Orthodox churches to approach any Anglican church with this kind of proposal.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Just Rom 5:12 - The text literally states

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man,
and death through [that one] sin,
in this way also death came to all people,
upon which [death] all have sinned—

eph'w Eph-hoe = upon which - eg "for which cause"...

So that the Death into which we are all born in fallen Eve and Adam is the CAUSE of all sin...



Agreed...



Did you not say that she was conceived without the stain, concupisence, of Original Sin?

Is not the temptation to sin the stain of Original Sin in Latin theology?

Maybe I misunderstand your words...


Arsenios

Since the Lord, Jesus Christ, was tempted of the devil to sin and yet did not sin it is evident that temptation to sin is not sin. And since the Lord, Jesus Christ, died and yet did not sin it is evident that death is not sin. Blessed Mary did not sin yet she was very likely tempted to sin and very likely she died too.

It ought to be evident that temptation to sin is not concupiscence because temptation is external to the one tempted while concupiscence is an inner disposition of the one who is tempted. The Lord, Jesus Christ, was tempted but there was no inner voice urging him to sin, no desire in his heart to do evil. In a similar manner Blessed Mary too had no inner voice urging her to sin and no desire in her heart to do evil, or so it seems from the testimony of holy scripture and the Tradition of God's Church.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The ancient-Faith Orthodox Churches DENY she was conceived without original sin or its 'stain'...

And we affirm this denial as Salvational...

And we KNOW our Mom...


Arsenios

I read your reply with some care and still I want to have you affirm what you've written so that your statements will be unambiguous.

Do you affirm that Blessed Mary was born with the stain of original sin, that is to say, with concupiscence?

Do you affirm that Blessed Mary desired to do evil in her heart (yet resisted it)?

Do you assert that unless one believes that Blessed Mary was born with concupiscence - a desire to do evil in her heart - that one is not and cannot be saved?

Do you assert that knowing "our Mom" necessarily implies belief that Blessed Mary lived her life with concupiscence - a desire to do evil in her heart?

 

[MennoSota]

"All generations shall call me blessed..."

Sorry Menno, but Scripture only mentions Mariam, and not you...

All creation is blessed just to be created...

But all Christians will call the Mother of our Lord Blessed...

Unless they scorn Scripture's Holy Word...


Arsenios

Arsenios, all Christians do say that Mary was given a blessing from God. So has everyone whom God has redeemed.
Where we differ is in the concept that the phrase you quote is or is not an official Title for Mary.
You seem to claim it means she was given an official title along the same lines of "Mr President" or "Lord Farquah."
I claim that it means we acknowledge she was given a blessing from God. No official title is demanded.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Arsenios, all Christians do say that Mary was given a blessing from God. So has everyone whom God has redeemed.
Where we differ is in the concept that the phrase you quote is or is not an official Title for Mary.
You seem to claim it means she was given an official title along the same lines of "Mr President" or "Lord Farquah."
I claim that it means we acknowledge she was given a blessing from God. No official title is demanded.

So, fundamentally, you prefer to give Donald Trump the title "Mr President" more than you would be willing to give the Mother of the Lord, Jesus Christ, the title "Blessed"?

 

[MennoSota]

So, fundamentally, you prefer to give Donald Trump the title "Mr President" more than you would be willing to give the Mother of the Lord, Jesus Christ, the title "Blessed"?

LOL, I prefer to call Donald, "The Oompa Loompa."
I don't read about Mary receiving a formal title. I don't read about Mary being sinless. I do find much of your traditions to be bogus dogma formed many years after the scriptures were written.

 

[Arsenios]

Arsenios, all Christians do say that Mary was given a blessing from God.

So has everyone whom God has redeemed.

Where we differ is in the concept that the phrase you quote is or is not an official Title for Mary.

The only question is this: "Do YOU call Her Blessed or not?"

I do not care a whit about any of your alleged titles we should or should not give her.

Scripture states: "All generations shall call me blessed..."

So DO YOU call her Blessed?

IF you do not, then you scorn the Gospel from which this was taken...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I read your reply with some care and still I want to have you affirm what you've written so that your statements will be unambiguous.

Good...

Do you affirm that Blessed Mary was born with the stain of original sin, that is to say, with concupiscence?

I do not - These are not words from the Orthodox Faith... She suffered temptations as all of us do...

Do you affirm that Blessed Mary desired to do evil in her heart (yet resisted it)?

I have no idea - She did suffer temptations as the rest of mankind suffers them...

Do you assert that unless one believes that Blessed Mary was born with concupiscence - a desire to do evil in her heart - that one is not and cannot be saved?

That would be silly, but what I do say is akin...

Do you assert that knowing "our Mom" necessarily implies belief that Blessed Mary lived her life with concupiscence - a desire to do evil in her heart?

I do not - She suffered temptations as we all do...

Here is the problem, MC - You see, IF she was conceived with a special grace that erased the 'stain' of sin from her, or the Original Sin itself, however you may understand it, then Christ is not OUR Savior, because NONE OF US is ever so conceived, and with the Fathers we all with one accord affirm and confess that Christ healed human nature which He received from the Blessed Virgin, and that what He did not assume from her, He did not heal, and what He did assume from her, He did heal... IF he only received from her the human nature that was given special grace from conception which none of the rest of us have, then that is what he healed, and all the rest of us are not healed in Christ...

It is the big fat juicy fly in the ointment of that doctrine...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

LOL,...
I don't read about Mary receiving a formal title.

You don't need to read about some straw-man "formal title"...
Scripture records:
"All generations shall call me blessed."
Do YOU call her blessed?

It is very simple for anyone to do, but ONLY IF they do NOT SCORN God's Word...

I used to see Christians as cheap judgmental hypocrites, Menno...
SAYING they believe the Bible, then not DOING what they say...
For which I scorned Christians and Christianity...

Surely you can call the Mother of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ Blessed?
Could you do it as a favor to this old ex-atheist Christian believer?


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

The only question is this: "Do YOU call Her Blessed or not?"

I do not care a whit about any of your alleged titles we should or should not give her.

Scripture states: "All generations shall call me blessed..."

So DO YOU call her Blessed?

IF you do not, then you scorn the Gospel from which this was taken...


Arsenios

Do you think your interpretation of this passage has any legitimacy? I do not.
I say she is, "Mary the mother of Jesus, whom God has blessed."
Now away with your silliness.

 

[Arsenios]

Do you think your interpretation of this passage has any legitimacy? I do not.
I say she is, "Mary the mother of Jesus, whom God has blessed."
Now away with your silliness.

Well, I sure wish you would also call her blessed, but I have to beg your forgiveness, Menno...

I have been dragging you backwards through these brambles for far too long...

I am sorry for getting so much pleasure from doing so...

It stops here and now...

Please forgive me...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Well, I sure wish you would also call her blessed, but I have to beg your forgiveness, Menno...

I have been dragging you backwards through these brambles for far too long...

I am sorry for getting so much pleasure from doing so...

It stops here and now...

Please forgive me...


Arsenios

They are only brambles to you. Nothing for me to forgive. You have a tradition. You don't think of Mary as sinless. You have not made her into something she is not.

 

[George]

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[George]

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[Arsenios]

They are only brambles to you. Nothing for me to forgive.

You are being very gracious...

You have a tradition.

Indeed...

You don't think of Mary as sinless.

Actually we do, because she is the New Eve, who was sinless prior to sinning...
She is the Gyne, Woman, of Revelation, a figure of the Church...

But we do not regard her as having been given some special grace at her conception...
She found her way to live without sin even as a child, and it led her to perpetual virginity...

She confronted the Angel Gabriel from her perpetual virginity...
And he yielded to her query...
And she consented...

All this as an early teen...

Christ never called her "Mom" or even "Mary" - He called her "Woman"... The same appellation as Eve...

You have not made her into something she is not.

I have not made her into something foreign to the rest of us...

I mean, none of us got some special grace at our conception either...

She gave Christ the very same fallen and death-imbued human nature that we all have...
And Christ living in that fallen human nature healed human nature in His Own Body...
That is why we are Baptized INTO Christ that we find healing and Life...
He did not heal human nature outside His Body...
That will come at the end of this Age...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

-

I could not agree more!

Arsenios.

 

[MoreCoffee]

LOL, I prefer to call Donald, "The Oompa Loompa."

:disgonbegood:

 

[MoreCoffee]

Pure from the first

The Protevangelium also contributed to the belief in Mary’s “immaculate conception”: from the first moment of her conception, she was preserved from the stain of original sin. The Protevangelium draws a parallel between Mary’s conception and that of John the Baptist, sanctified in Elisabeth’s womb (Luke 1:15), seeming to suggest that the conjugal begetting of Mary was somehow devoid of sinful taint.

While some more elaborate justifications for a “sinless Mary” have been offered, especially in the later Middle Ages, this is still essentially the position of the modern Catholic church: “Sanctifying grace was given to her before sin could have taken effect in her soul.”

This view, though often challenged, has had notable champions. In refuting Pelagius, Augustine is among those who declares that while all those justified by grace have known sin, he cannot, “for the honor of the Lord.” even question whether Mary might have sinned (Nature and Grace, 100.36).

The term “Immaculate Conception,” relating strictly to Mary's own conception, appeared in the formal liturgy first in 1854 (Pius IX), though the feast was adopted for the entire Latin church in 1476 (by Sixtus IV). -- https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/magazine/article/mary-the-sinless/

 

[MennoSota]

You are being very gracious...



Indeed...



Actually we do, because she is the New Eve, who was sinless prior to sinning...
She is the Gyne, Woman, of Revelation, a figure of the Church...

But we do not regard her as having been given some special grace at her conception...
She found her way to live without sin even as a child, and it led her to perpetual virginity...

She confronted the Angel Gabriel from her perpetual virginity...
And he yielded to her query...
And she consented...

All this as an early teen...

Christ never called her "Mom" or even "Mary" - He called her "Woman"... The same appellation as Eve...



I have not made her into something foreign to the rest of us...

I mean, none of us got some special grace at our conception either...

She gave Christ the very same fallen and death-imbued human nature that we all have...
And Christ living in that fallen human nature healed human nature in His Own Body...
That is why we are Baptized INTO Christ that we find healing and Life...
He did not heal human nature outside His Body...
That will come at the end of this Age...


Arsenios

Your added narrative, found nowhere in scripture, is a tradition that is strange and baffling to me. Why would anyone add such bogus material to what scripture declares about Mary.