Should abortion be illegal?

[tango]

What is keeping you, then, from approving of some restrictions on abortion?

I explained earlier the difference between a personal conviction that means I might decide not to do something without expecting anyone else to follow my conviction, an appeal to Scripture that means I would expect Christians to either follow the appeal or provide a counterappeal, and a broader appeal that would be required to impose a law upon an entire nation.

I'm also opposed to bad legislation that makes lots of fanfare and bold claims but actually achieves very little or, worse still, fails to restrict the things it claims to restrict while making life more difficult for cases that should be genuine exceptions. As I've been saying, if we allow exceptions it's only a question of time before the exceptions become the norm, which is pretty much where we are now. A requirement to show harm to the mother has been watered down and watered down to the point that "it's really not what I want right now" is all that is required.

If someone can come up with a law that provides for exceptions when needed (assuming, of course, a list of valid exceptions can even be agreed) that doesn't leave the door wide open for abuse I'd be genuinely interested to see it.

 

[tango]

I have to admit that I like the idea of giving out two passports to pregnant women... And making it law that returning without the unborn or born child is a criminal act in the US of A... That if a woman wants to go to Mexico or Canada to get an abortion she will face criminal charges if she returns to the US... The procedure should be simple - Require a declaration on departure of pregnancy status, with random urine checks... A lot of lives could be saved, and therein a lot of murders prevented...

But certainly we can not merely make abortion illegal in the US, but together with that law, establish streamlined adoption procedures for those mothers who do not want the responsibility of rearing their babies...

The killing of an unwanted and unborn child is a grievous wound in the soul of the ones doing it, be they the doctor, the mother, the father, and/or the one paying for it... They need our prayers as much as the ones they have killed...

Indeed, the taking of anyone's life, justified or not, is a wound on the taker... In ancient times, we would take men out of the Holy Communion of the Church when they returned from battles in war, giving them up to three years to confess and repent from the killing therein in which they were participants... Indeed, even today, so serious is the issues of being involved in a death that our Bishops are not permitted to drive, lest someone might get killed by their own negligence or intent driving into a car that the Bishop was driving... And Clergy, upon Ordination to Holy Orders, cannot own any weapons, and especially guns of any kind...

Here you would also need to provide for genuine exceptions. Like the woman I worked with who suffered a miscarriage while on a flight between London and New York. By the time she was discharged from hospital (she was about 7 months pregnant at the time) I'd be surprised if there would have been much evidence remaining, had she engineered her own miscarriage. You'd also have a hard time enforcing anything because someone who has a passport is unlikely to rush out and request a passport for their unborn child if their plan was to go to Canada for an abortion. You might shorten the window that someone can have an abortion but unless you can patrol every single border road you'll have a hard time doing much more than that.

 

[tango]

I can’t really shake the feeling that killing unborn babies is about as popular with God as throwing infants into the fires of Molech was.
Practicality and Legality really doesn’t enter into it.

“Yes, the Nazi Holocaust is terrible, but be practical, what can we really do about it? It is perfectly legal in Germany.”

Acceptability to God and legality are very different concepts.

One would hope that Christians as a rule do not fornicate, do not commit adultery, do not covet their neighbors ox or ass (or modern day equivalents) and yet all these things are legal. We don't live in a theocracy and to be honest I don't really want any small group of people interpreting the holy text of their choice and demanding the nation lives by their interpretation of their chosen holy text.

 

[psalms 91]

Acceptability to God and legality are very different concepts.

One would hope that Christians as a rule do not fornicate, do not commit adultery, do not covet their neighbors ox or ass (or modern day equivalents) and yet all these things are legal. We don't live in a theocracy and to be honest I don't really want any small group of people interpreting the holy text of their choice and demanding the nation lives by their interpretation of their chosen holy text.

However I do want laws that protect life and I also want laws based on the ten commandments as British law was and ours copied a lot of theirs and I stand by the fact that this nation was founded on christian principles and yes I will get all sorts of arguments over that. Save your breath as I have heard them all and I am not shaken from that belief.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Acceptability to God and legality are very different concepts.

One would hope that Christians as a rule do not fornicate, do not commit adultery, do not covet their neighbors ox or ass (or modern day equivalents) and yet all these things are legal. We don't live in a theocracy and to be honest I don't really want any small group of people interpreting the holy text of their choice and demanding the nation lives by their interpretation of their chosen holy text.

Islamic states use holy books and laws allegedly derived from them to rule/govern the people. I do not think that Christians will happily compare biblical law with sharia law but the ideas expressed in both systems have similarities and the underlying principle is allegedly the same; namely, that God gave laws and it is the duty of the state and mankind to do everything they can to enact God's law as the law of the land. I may be wrong but this approach does not have a good record of success.

 

[mtzopera]

Well I had an abortion when I was 17 years old. I am now 58 years old and I often think about the child I killed in my womb. I know God has forgiven me but He will not let me forget, like a thorn in my side. I do not wish upon any woman the sorrow I feel for doing what I did. So that being the said, abortion should not be allowed.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Well I had an abortion when I was 17 years old. I am now 58 years old and I often think about the child I killed in my womb. I know God has forgiven me but He will not let me forget, like a thorn in my side. I do not wish upon any woman the sorrow I feel for doing what I did. So that being the said, abortion should not be allowed.

Your experience sounds deeply sorrowful.

 

[Michael]

The slaughter of the innocents is indeed heartbreaking.
Each time a deliverer was to come, the children suffered the greatest.
Truly, this is a spiritual battle that has been raging from the beginning...

https://youtu.be/VBPmvo5iSa0

 

[Andrew]

The slaughter of the innocents is indeed heartbreaking.
Each time a deliverer was to come, the children suffered the greatest.
Truly, this is a spiritual battle that has been raging from the beginning...

https://youtu.be/VBPmvo5iSa0

Great video so far (still watching)...
I agree abortion -especially late term.. is an abomination

 

[Jason]

I get really sad to hear the abortion stories. Making the child suffer in Womb for which i am totally against. And it should be made illegal.

 

[Pedrito]

==============================================================================================

(Apologies if this has been addressed in the thread already. I’ve only had time to skim read it.)

There are a couple of perspectives that seem to have been overlooked.

==============================================================================================

1. “Everyone” (general case) is Hell-bound anyway. So why have a law to control non-Christians? What difference would it make?

If an already-Christian deliberately undertook that procedure, would that somehow jeopardise their salvation status?

==============================================================================================

2. The “pre-selected-for-salvation” camp (as I understand its teaching) has it down pat.

No-one preselected for salvation would disobey God in that way.

No-one preselected for salvation would ever be aborted.

Therefore, no need for laws to try to keep people from offending in that way.

==============================================================================================

On the basis of that, does that particular overall religious perspective, deserve more serious attention?

==============================================================================================

 

[atpollard]

================================================================

On the basis of that, does that particular overall religious perspective, deserve more serious attention?

================================================================

No true God fearing child of Abraham would ever sacrifice a child to Molech, so were the Prophets wrong to oppose the sacrifices to Molech by apostate Jews?

 

[psalms 91]

Is murder wrong? Lets not make it pretty by calling it something other than what it really is

 

[Michael]

However I do want laws that protect life and I also want laws based on the ten commandments as British law was and ours copied a lot of theirs and I stand by the fact that this nation was founded on christian principles and yes I will get all sorts of arguments over that. Save your breath as I have heard them all and I am not shaken from that belief.

Amen. I have no doubt that this country was founded on Judaeo/Christian principles. I've received a lot of flak too for speaking this truth. From the founding of this nation George Washington declared - “It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.” Saying, with expectation that, “What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” - (1779)

And Ben Franklin prophetically spoke during a Constitutional Convention when the nation was just 10 years old - "I have lived, Sir, a long time and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings that "except the Lord build they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall be become a reproach and a bye word down to future age. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments by Human Wisdom, and leave it to chance, war, and conquest."

Truly we need Repentance in this land. And may it begin with us, the Church.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Is murder wrong? Lets not make it pretty by calling it something other than what it really is

Is it murder to help someone kill themselves? For example, is it murder to give someone sufficient opiate based pain killers to be lethal or to advise them how much will be fatal and be present when they decide to take the lethal dose?

EDIT: oops, I thought this was the Euthanasia thread so my reply relates to Euthanasia, as any reading it can see, sorry that I posted it here by accident. Abortion is a very different topic.

 

[Michael]

==============================================================================================

(Apologies if this has been addressed in the thread already. I’ve only had time to skim read it.)

There are a couple of perspectives that seem to have been overlooked.

==============================================================================================

1. “Everyone” (general case) is Hell-bound anyway. So why have a law to control non-Christians? What difference would it make?

If an already-Christian deliberately undertook that procedure, would that somehow jeopardise their salvation status?

==============================================================================================

2. The “pre-selected-for-salvation” camp (as I understand its teaching) has it down pat.

No-one preselected for salvation would disobey God in that way.

No-one preselected for salvation would ever be aborted.

Therefore, no need for laws to try to keep people from offending in that way.

==============================================================================================

On the basis of that, does that particular overall religious perspective, deserve more serious attention?

==============================================================================================

Wow! This sounds like Calvanistic teaching concerning 'predestination' which is unScriptural, and totally misunderstood by most. "Predestination" has nothing to do with being "saved.' No one is predestined to be saved, but rather to become united with Christ as a ruler who will sit with Him on His throne ministering Life to the saved nations. And even those "predestined" to this calling, must "walk worthy" of it, or their place will be given to another.
The idea that God knows every single thing that will ever take place in His creation is not Biblical either. He is NOT the Author of abortion and rape and the abuse of children that goes on, which is what such a teaching as you mentioned would support. Sorry, I don't serve a god like that. Earlier in this thread I shared on what the real battle behind abortion is, and it is raging in the heavens as we speak -

https://youtu.be/VBPmvo5iSa0

 

[Andrew]

Wow! This sounds like Calvanistic teaching concerning 'predestination' which is unScriptural, and totally misunderstood by most. "Predestination" has nothing to do with being "saved.' No one is predestined to be saved, but rather to become united with Christ as a ruler who will sit with Him on His throne ministering Life to the saved nations. And even those "predestined" to this calling, must "walk worthy" of it, or their place will be given to another.
The idea that God knows every single thing that will ever take place in His creation is not Biblical either. He is NOT the Author of abortion and rape and the abuse of children that goes on, which is what such a teaching as you mentioned would support. Sorry, I don't serve a god like that. Earlier in this thread I shared on what the real battle behind abortion is, and it is raging in the heavens as we speak -

https://youtu.be/VBPmvo5iSa0

So about your video, you mention the Nephilim as being the fallen elohim (gods) that procreated with women and bore child... so you are saying that this is Satans seed mentioned earlier in genesis.. My question might sidetrack a bit, the bible does say that they existed even after the flood, my question is how did they survive the flood if only 8 souls are claimed to have survived the deluge?
My impression was that when the sons of God on earth (just as we are sons of God on earth today) gave into marrying the ungodly women, that the offspring became of high stature (as in people looked up to them as heros) and became crusaders and warriors creating violence and Holy wars and became mythical celebrities so to speak.
I've heard others say that gods such as the greek gods we're real but have long since gone and became myths...
Either way, when I read Jesus telling the murmuring Jews that they are sons of the devil I wonder if they were Satans seed, they were considered high priest after all but rejected Christ and his Miracles which they have seen and which is an unforgivable sin (by calling his Holy miracles the work of the devil)...
Where they partakers of the same seed as the Nephilim?
How did the Nephilim survive the flood? Was it that the pattern of Godly people (sons of God) disobey and intermarry with pagan women? Just curious on what you believe on that issue.. thanks

 

[MennoSota]

So about your video, you mention the Nephilim as being the fallen elohim (gods) that procreated with women and bore child... so you are saying that this is Satans seed mentioned earlier in genesis.. My question might sidetrack a bit, the bible does say that they existed even after the flood, my question is how did they survive the flood if only 8 souls are claimed to have survived the deluge?
My impression was that when the sons of God on earth (just as we are sons of God on earth today) gave into marrying the ungodly women, that the offspring became of high stature (as in people looked up to them as heros) and became crusaders and warriors creating violence and Holy wars and became mythical celebrities so to speak.
I've heard others say that gods such as the greek gods we're real but have long since gone and became myths...
Either way, when I read Jesus telling the murmuring Jews that they are sons of the devil I wonder if they were Satans seed, they were considered high priest after all but rejected Christ and his Miracles which they have seen and which is an unforgivable sin (by calling his Holy miracles the work of the devil)...
Where they partakers of the same seed as the Nephilim?
How did the Nephilim survive the flood? Was it that the pattern of Godly people (sons of God) disobey and intermarry with pagan women? Just curious on what you believe on that issue.. thanks

Side note: Angels are asexual. They cannot procreate and certainly cannot do so with humans.

 

[Andrew]

Side note: Angels are asexual. They cannot procreate and certainly cannot do so with humans.

So you suggest that they were sons of God as in High Priest but not angels?
Mixing Holiness with ungodliness created a special kind of violent offspring whom people admired and followed as gods.... I seem to interprete it that way, I read up on something not to long ago that suggested that they were soldiers that died in battle and were worshipped... Romans did believe in special powers when you drank the blood and sweat of a dead soldier..
Maybe this is all for another thread but I always figured they weren't literal giants made from procreating angels... I think it's simpler than that but I'm not sure

 

[MennoSota]

So you suggest that they were sons of God as in High Priest but not angels?
Mixing Holiness with ungodliness created a special kind of violent offspring whom people admired and followed as gods.... I seem to interprete it that way, I read up on something not to long ago that suggested that they were soldiers that died in battle and were worshipped... Romans did believe in special powers when you drank the blood and sweat of a dead soldier..
Maybe this is all for another thread but I always figured they weren't literal giants made from procreating angels... I think it's simpler than that but I'm not sure

I suggest we don't know who the nephalim were.
We know angels are spirits, not physical beings. They can manifest as humans, but are not human in form. They do not marry. Their number is fixed.

Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

Whatever the nephalim were, they are not angels.
The Bible gives no indication that there are aliens who can procreate with humans. Thus, all people can do is speculate about what the nephalim were.
But, I would still not advocate for aborting nephalim babies...