Salvation

[MoreCoffee]

We, this is the big "I don't know" I was teling you about... John Gill does not encompass the time frame that Jesus bracketed by the two events, with the second being contemporary with those with whom He was speaking...

The keyword is "ALL the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias..." So we know that the first murder of a righteous man was by his brother Cain, murdering Abel, yes? And from this first time until the present time, when Zachariah was murdered in the most holy place very recently, ALL the blood of the Righteous slain is UPON these Jews present... It is a dreadful indictment, you see... I cannot be any other Zacharias because there is NO OTHER current Zacharias that COULD have been slain there... He was the ONLY Zachariah who SERVED there, and only those serving there were permitted to BE there... It was just that kind of place...

This is a great "side bar" for a Savation thread...

Arsenios

I like the "sidebar for salvation thread" comment

:smirk:

 

[Arsenios]

I like the "sidebar for salvation thread" comment

OK - Back on topic...

One of the justifications for Salvation by Grace that Paul noted was
"...Not by the works of the Law, lest anyone should boast..."
Literally: "Not out of works, lest any should boast."

The first time I read this, I wondered at it, because I thought no one could ever think that the encounter with God that makes man Life-bearing and Holy could ever emerge as a function of labors and other doings of fallen man... So then, if it is so obviously true, why would God have Paul saying such a thing - You might as well point out that the sun will rise tomorrow morning...

Then it dawned on me, for I was not yet a Christian by Baptism, that the discipling of the Ekklesia is very labor intensive, and that Paul wrote this little sentence BECAUSE of the extensive labors of the Way of Salvation by God... And they are many, in ALL the Apostolic Churches of the first thousand years of the Christian Faith on earth...

Here are some:
Praying, 7 times a day and in the watches of the night...
Vigils, being deprived of sleep for the sake of constant prayers through the night...
The labors of the day to earn a living for one's family...
The labors to give alms to the poor...
The deprivation of idle time throughout the day...
Throughout all the day to be praying without ceasing...
To endure persecutions without retaliation or recrimination...
To participate in Church Services morning and night...
To live generally without much comfort or pleasures...
To fast from rich foods 3 days a week...
And to do all this with Joy...
Hungry, exhausted, laboring, and immersed in prayer, almost all the time...
Fighting the battles of hidden warfare within one's own soul...
Laboring in the purification of one's own heart from evil incursions...
Maintaining humility in all things...
Caring about and for others instead of self...
Embracing pains and discomforts without complaint...

And all this in preparation for encountering God...

That one's soul is made a straight path for God...
That the hills and dales are made level...
That the soil be tilled and fertile...
That it be moistened with one's tears...
That denial of self become a way of life...
The bearing of one's cross unto death...

So that when one finally does encounter God, living this kind of life, one might then think that God was simply paying what was DUE for such EFFORT on the part of the person subjecting himself or herself to such a manner of being... That one's efforts might be the CAUSE of such a Divine Encounter...

Which is false...

And so Paul writes: "Not out of works [is this encounter with God that constitutes Salvation], lest any should boast..." Those works are but the preparation of one's soul by denial of self and the taking up of one's own cross, that when and if God DOES grant such an Encounter that bestows His Life Eternal upon the person so living, that this person will be READY to receive Christ...

The CALL of God is UNTO this preparation - That is the SAME call that John the Baptist made, as did Isaiah so many years before Him, for John IS Isaiah, IF you have ears to hear...
Joh 1:23
He said, "I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness,
Make straight the way of the Lord,"
as said the prophet Esaias.

The CALL of God is to "Make Straight the Way of the Lord..."

And this making straight is in PREPARATION FOR, and is not the consequence of, one's encounter with God...

What happens when one encounters God without preparation, without preparing the Way of the Lord, is the inability of the impurified soul to receive very much of what God is Giving - One does receive a life-transforming event, normally, but one has most of God's Grace repelled, and this occurs even as one thinks they have "arrived" at Salvation... Which they have, but in a very limited way...

This is why Christ commanded His Apostles to DISCIPLE all the Nations, Baptizing them, teaching them to observe ALL that He had commanded them, that they be PREPARED to encounter God... Most of us in the West do not know what this looks like in a person... It is how God makes His Holy Ones... The KINDS of Holy Ones who WROTE the Bible, and are ABLE to understand it in a way that most us the rest of us slobs are NOT... THIS, you see, is the real Grace that God bestows on those who have taken up wholeheartedly the Call of Isaiah... And it is because we are now able to be Baptized INTO Christ, we HAVE in our very being, the capacity that so very few of the OT Saints were able to muster, for they were simply men imbued with the Holy Spirit, and were not recipients, through Baptism into Christ, of the ontological change into being a New Creation that all Christians so Baptized have become...

As a result, we who are Baptized into Christ have the capacity to prepare the Way of Christ in our own souls and live the Life Christ has prepared for us unto this encounter, which He will also give us IF such Giving is according to His Purposing WITHIN us who are in Him... It is utterly God's to determine... Some who are very prepared do not have this encounter, and others who are not well prepared do, so as God said of olde... "I WILL have Mercy on whom I WILL have Mercy..."

And as Paul adds: "Not from works, lest any boast..."

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Paul also writes what Salvation looks like from this high perspective:

1Co 4:9-16
For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death:
for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ;
we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst,
and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
And labour, working with our own hands:
being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
Being defamed, we intreat:
we are made as the filth of the world,
and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
I write not these things to shame you,
but as my beloved sons I warn you.
For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ,
yet have ye not many fathers:
for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

"Be ye followers of me..." indeed!

How many of these have you seen lately?


Arsenios

 

[Albion]

They were Baptists! That's the first church, Arsenio. Even your beloved John was a....Baptist.

I believe that John was a baptizer.

And BTW, baptizing adults by immersion does not make anyone a "Baptist," not then or now.

 

[MennoSota]

I believe that John was a baptizer.

And BTW, baptizing adults by immersion does not make anyone a "Baptist," not then or now.

We disagree...

 

[TurtleHare]

The Cross was in view from before the beginning of time...

The Theocracy of Israel was never in view...

To the consternation of the Jews...

That Theocracy is Old Testament Covenant...

"God GAVE this LAND to ME..."

The New Jerusalem is the rich earth of the Heart softened by tears of repentance...

Therein is the Home of the Pure in Heart who see God...


Arsenios

Believers are pure in heart not because of any specialness that comes from them because it's God who purifies us and he's been purifying since the beginning.

 

[Arsenios]

Believers are pure in heart not because of any specialness that comes from them because it's God who purifies us and he's been purifying since the beginning.

God will not purify you if you willfully cling to your impurities...

You have to try, and
WHEN you have expended your strength,
THEN God will purify...

IF it is God alone who purifies,
THEN why are we not all pure?

And what do you do with the Parable of the Sower?

Mar 4:16
And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground;
who, when they have heard the word,
immediately receive it with gladness;
Mar 4:17
And have no root in themselves,
and so endure but for a time:
afterward,
when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake,
immediately they are offended.

It is clear throughout the parable that it is the person who is responsible for what happens with the seed sown in him or her... It is also clear that it is not the problem with the seed... And it is not some problem with God playing favorites...

The purification of the heart is indeed what God gives to those who SEEK it...
AND... Clearly from this parable...
He does not give it to those who SCORN it...
[eg "are offended by affliction and persecution"]

IF one has no "ROOT" in oneself, the Seed of the Word will not do well in you...
It does NOT say, as you aver, that God fails...
It says "God sows"...
"A Sower went out to sow..."

He has an abundance of seed, you see...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

God will not purify you if you willfully cling to your impurities...

You have to try, and
WHEN you have expended your strength,
THEN God will purify...

IF it is God alone who purifies,
THEN why are we not all pure?

And what do you do with the Parable of the Sower?

Mar 4:16
And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground;
who, when they have heard the word,
immediately receive it with gladness;
Mar 4:17
And have no root in themselves,
and so endure but for a time:
afterward,
when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake,
immediately they are offended.

It is clear throughout the parable that it is the person who is responsible for what happens with the seed sown in him or her... It is also clear that it is not the problem with the seed... And it is not some problem with God playing favorites...

The purification of the heart is indeed what God gives to those who SEEK it...
AND... Clearly from this parable...
He does not give it to those who SCORN it...
[eg "are offended by affliction and persecution"]

IF one has no "ROOT" in oneself, the Seed of the Word will not do well in you...
It does NOT say, as you aver, that God fails...
It says "God sows"...
"A Sower went out to sow..."

He has an abundance of seed, you see...


Arsenios

Romans 8:1-4,9-11,24-25,29-39
[1]So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus.
[2]And because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death.
[3]The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins.
[4]He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit.
[9]But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)
[10]And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life because you have been made right with God.
[11]The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as God raised Christ Jesus from the dead, he will give life to your mortal bodies by this same Spirit living within you.
[24]We were given this hope when we were saved. (If we already have something, we don’t need to hope for it.
[25]But if we look forward to something we don’t yet have, we must wait patiently and confidently.)
[29]For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
[30]And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.
[31]What shall we say about such wonderful things as these? If God is for us, who can ever be against us?
[32]Since he did not spare even his own Son but gave him up for us all, won’t he also give us everything else?
[33]Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for his own? No one—for God himself has given us right standing with himself.
[34]Who then will condemn us? No one—for Christ Jesus died for us and was raised to life for us, and he is sitting in the place of honor at God’s right hand, pleading for us.
[35]Can anything ever separate us from Christ’s love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death?
[36](As the Scriptures say, “For your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep.”)
[37]No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us.
[38]And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love.
[39]No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Arsenios]

Romans 8:2-3
[2] And because you belong to Him,

This means because you have been Baptized INTO Him...

the power of the life-giving Spirit
has freed you from the power of sin
that leads to death.

This means you are now in fact freed from the power of sin...

[3] The law of Moses was unable to save us
because of the weakness of our sinful nature.

So IF we are freed from the power of sin,
do you imagine we are thereby freed from the temptations of sin???
That somehow we CANNOT be overcome by sin???
That somehow we cannot fall???

No man living is so high and mighty that he cannot fall...

And our adversary is persistent and experienced...

He does not eat or sleep...

That he destroy us with himself...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

This means because you have been Baptized INTO Him...



This means you are now in fact freed from the power of sin...



So IF we are freed from the power of sin,
do you imagine we are thereby freed from the temptations of sin???
That somehow we CANNOT be overcome by sin???
That somehow we cannot fall???

No man living is so high and mighty that he cannot fall...

And our adversary is persistent and experienced...

He does not eat or sleep...

That he destroy us with himself...


Arsenios

No, you falsely equate baptism with salvation. It is patently wrong on your part.

 

[Arsenios]

No, you falsely equate baptism with salvation. It is patently wrong on your part.

Does the Bible NOT teach that we are Baptized INTO Christ?

It DOES so teach, my brother, and...

THAT is Justification and Sanctification...


Arsenios

 

[psalms 91]

Does the Bible NOT teach that we are Baptized INTO Christ?

It DOES so teach, my brother, and...

THAT is Justification and Sanctification...


Arsenios

Totally seperate from water baptism

 

[MennoSota]

Does the Bible NOT teach that we are Baptized INTO Christ?

It DOES so teach, my brother, and...

THAT is Justification and Sanctification...


Arsenios

The Spirit does baptize us into Christ. We are immersed into Christ. No water needed.
I am amazed how so many force water into the word baptizo when water is not synonymous with the word. You and others have forced a human work into something that only God the Holy Spirit does. Water just symbolizes what God already did.

 

[Arsenios]

The Spirit does baptize us into Christ. We are immersed into Christ. No water needed.
I am amazed how so many force water into the word baptizo when water is not synonymous with the word. You and others have forced a human work into something that only God the Holy Spirit does. Water just symbolizes what God already did.

So WHOM did Christ COMMAND to Baptize ALL the Nations??

And HOW did they go about doing so??

Did God COMMAND the Holy Spirit to DO the Baptizing somewhere that I somehow MISSED??


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

So WHOM did Christ COMMAND to Baptize ALL the Nations??

And HOW did they go about doing so??

Did God COMMAND the Holy Spirit to DO the Baptizing somewhere that I somehow MISSED??


Arsenios

Go and make disciples. That is the command.
Once they are disciples, saved, then baptize them.
Baptism expresses, in a physical action, what the Spirit already did at salvation.
There is nothing mystical in the water, Arsenios.

Sent from my moto g(6) play using Tapatalk

 

[MoreCoffee]

So WHOM did Christ COMMAND to Baptize ALL the Nations??

And HOW did they go about doing so??

Did God COMMAND the Holy Spirit to DO the Baptizing somewhere that I somehow MISSED??


Arsenios

Brother Arsenios, in order to accept MennoSota's theology you'd need to deny holy scripture's teaching about baptism.

You'd need to have at least two baptisms.

One with water that does either nothing or very little but acts as a sign and symbol of a second baptism that is administered, he says, by Jesus Christ or by the Holy Spirit.

It's the second baptism - the one that he alleges is administered either by Christ or the Holy Spirit - that accomplishes things.

It's a spiritual kind of thing, one not sullied by matter and especially not by water. It is entirely invisible. It is not carnal and earthly.

Or so his posts seem to say.

The holy scriptures say the opposite. As you already know. Baptism with/in water is the means by which one receives what Baptism promises.
New life in Christ, death to sin, resurrection, and the life of the Holy Trinity as well as the gift of the Holy Spirit. Forgiveness of sins. And regeneration.
Regeneration is a word used a lot in Protestant theologies.

So in MennoSota's posts baptism is bifurcated into water baptism which is symbolic and spirit baptism which is unrelated to water baptism.

 

[Arsenios]

The Spirit does baptize us into Christ..

Scripture says it is Christ Who Baptizes...

That He does so IN the Spirit...

No Scripture says the Spirit Baptizes...

I invite you to show me a Scripture that says it is the Holy Spirit Who Baptizes...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Go and make disciples. That is the command.
Once they are disciples, saved, then baptize them.
Baptism expresses, in a physical action, what the Spirit already did at salvation.
There is nothing mystical in the water, Arsenios.

Sent from my moto g(6) play using Tapatalk

Disciples are not saved because they are disciples...
They are still under the discipline of discipling...
Judas was a disciple, had power over demons...
Just as did the other 11...

And he was lost...

The text literally says:

Disciple all the nations...
Baptizing them in the Name...
Teaching them to observe carefully ALL I have commanded you (to be doing...

This means that to disciple means to Baptize and to teach careful observance in deeds...
It means to ENTER them into OBEDIENCE to Christ...
Essential to discipling is Baptism INTO Christ...

So tell me, how do the Apostles Baptize the Nations INTO Christ?
How did Peter do so with Cornelius? Water...
How was the Ethopian Baptized? Water...

In an Apostolic Baptism, Christ is Baptizing you in the Holy Spirit in the Waters of Regeneration into Himself...

There is ONE Baptism, not two or ten or ten thousand...

You are simply mistaken...

Confusing a private Spiritual event with Baptism...

Paul was not Baptized on the Road - He was struck blind...

Ananias healed his sight and Baptized him in water and filled him with the Holy Spirit...


Arsenios

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Scripture says it is Christ Who Baptizes...

That He does so IN the Spirit...

No Scripture says the Spirit Baptizes...

I invite you to show me a Scripture that says it is the Holy Spirit Who Baptizes...


Arsenios

Have you been baptized in the Spirit, Arsenios? Or have you just had water sprinkled on you?

 

[MennoSota]

Disciples are not saved because they are disciples...
They are still under the discipline of discipling...
Judas was a disciple, had power over demons...
Just as did the other 11...

And he was lost...

The text literally says:

Disciple all the nations...
Baptizing them in the Name...
Teaching them to observe carefully ALL I have commanded you (to be doing...

This means that to disciple means to Baptize and to teach careful observance in deeds...
It means to ENTER them into OBEDIENCE to Christ...
Essential to discipling is Baptism INTO Christ...

So tell me, how do the Apostles Baptize the Nations INTO Christ?
How did Peter do so with Cornelius? Water...
How was the Ethopian Baptized? Water...

In an Apostolic Baptism, Christ is Baptizing you in the Holy Spirit in the Waters of Regeneration into Himself...

There is ONE Baptism, not two or ten or ten thousand...

You are simply mistaken...

Confusing a private Spiritual event with Baptism...

Paul was not Baptized on the Road - He was struck blind...

Ananias healed his sight and Baptized him in water and filled him with the Holy Spirit...


Arsenios

Arsenios

Baptism is commanded. It comes after salvation, not as a means of salvation.
Disciples are saved by God's choosing. Judas was condemned by God's choosing. In John 13, we see that Jesus dipped the bread and gave it to Judas, where upon eating it, Satan entered Judas.
God chooses, Arsenios. You don't. Someone being baptized does NOTHING to affect their salvation. Please stop perpetuating a false gospel.