Salvation - Part 2

[MoreCoffee]

Salvation

Salvation is not so easy to define. Some think of it as a kind of transaction where the sinner exercises faith in Jesus Christ and God forgives their sins and saves them. A done deal, all finished at the cross. Some think of salvation is a quest of sorts where the sinner repents and believes the gospel and God shows the way and gives food for the journey and rest and everything needed to complete the journey including medical/spiritual aid and emergency aid too with the final goal being salvation on the last day when Jesus says to the redeemed "well done thou good and faithful servant, enter into my Father's rest". There are variants on both of these views too and a few views that are outside the bounds set in the two mentioned above.

Is it enough to believe and is believing more than saying "yes that is right, I think that is true" and maybe acting on the belief or is there more to belief than that and does it mean living a life marked by holiness and prayer as well as generosity to others, love for others, and especially love for the 'brethren'; is a person saved by what they do as well as what they believe or is the doing greater than the believing or vice versa?

This is not intended as a second chapter of the Justification thread.

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is here. by MoreCoffee Titled Salvation

 

[Support]

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is here.

 

[Arsenios]

When I've talk with Pentecostal Christians they've told me that there's a need for a second baptism which they call either the baptism with the Spirit or baptism in the Spirit. The passage they reference is

(I Corinthians 12:13) For by one Spirit are we all baptised into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. KJV​

which in the KJV says "by one Spirit" so the implication is that the Holy Spirit is the one who does the baptism, in their theology.

It's an interesting perspective.

I do not share it.

It is not what the Catholic Church teaches. One of my Catholic bibles translates the verse this way

(I Corinthians 12:13) And indeed, in one Spirit, we were all baptised into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether servant or free. And we all drank in the one Spirit.​

which seems much more in accord with the rest of the teaching of holy scripture where we are taught that Jesus Christ will baptise with fire and the Holy Spirit.

(Luke 3:16) John answered them all, saying, I baptize you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.​

Here is the Greek, and it does NOT SAY: BY the Holy Spirit

kai gar en eni pneumati hmeiv pantev eiv en swma ebaptisyhmen

Literally: For also IN one Spirit we all into one body have been baptized.

I imagine MennoSota's post is not what the Orthodox Church teaches.

Gee, do ya think??

But maybe it is what MennoSota teaches?

I love your optimism!

And I love Menno!

But he is no twistable pretzel...

That man has some SAND in his craw!


Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Here is the Greek, and it does NOT SAY: BY the Holy Spirit

kai gar en eni pneumati hmeiv pantev eiv en swma ebaptisyhmen

Literally: For also IN one Spirit we all into one body have been baptized.

Gee, do ya think??

I was confident that Orthodox Christians did not teach what MennoSota says about two baptisms but I wanted to let somebody who is from an Orthodox church say so.

I love your optimism!

And I love Menno!

But he is no twistable pretzel...

That man has some SAND in his craw!


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I was confident that Orthodox Christians did not teach what MennoSota says about two baptisms but I wanted to let somebody who is from an Orthodox church say so.

Aaaaahhhhh...

Of Course!!!

Silly me!

What could I have been thinking??

Very kind of you to be so generous...

Of course it is!

Very kind, very kind...

You SLY dog you!!


Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

I believe there is ONE baptism because that's what the Bible specifically says. BTW, the ancient Creed (that Calvinists CLAIM they accept) says that, too.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Aaaaahhhhh...

Of Course!!!

Silly me!

What could I have been thinking??

Very kind of you to be so generous...

Of course it is!

Very kind, very kind...

You SLY dog you!!


Arsenios

The holy scriptures urge Christians to be kind one to another, brother Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Here is the Greek, and it does NOT SAY: BY the Holy Spirit

kai gar en eni pneumati hmeiv pantev eiv en swma ebaptisyhmen

Literally: For also IN one Spirit we all into one body have been baptized.



Gee, do ya think??



I love your optimism!

And I love Menno!

But he is no twistable pretzel...

That man has some SAND in his craw!


Arsenios

What I don't see is any water in that baptism, Arsenios.
The one body into which we have been baptized is Christ. No water required. Just the Spirit baptizing (immersing) us into Christ.
Thanks Arsenios, you make my point so very clear.

 

[Arsenios]

What I don't see is any water in that baptism, Arsenios.
The one body into which we have been baptized is Christ. No water required. Just the Spirit baptizing (immersing) us into Christ.
Thanks Arsenios, you make my point so very clear.

It does not say that the Holy Spirit baptizes...

Water was not the point there, but Who Baptizes IS...

And it is NOT the Holy Spirit DOING the Baptizing...

So did Christ command His Apostles to baptize all the nations???

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

It does not say that the Holy Spirit baptizes...

Water was not the point there, but Who Baptizes IS...

And it is NOT the Holy Spirit DOING the Baptizing...

So did Christ command His Apostles to baptize all the nations???

Arsenios

For also IN one Spirit we all into one body have been baptized.

God baptizes us into Christ. It's right there, Arsenios. With your own translation, you make my point. No water used.
Thanks Arsenios.

 

[MoreCoffee]

People who say "I am saved" or "I was saved on such and such a day when I decided for Christ" need to take what the holy scriptures say to heart

1 Corinthians 10:11 These things happened to them, as an example, and they were written as a warning, for us, as the last times come upon us. 12 Therefore, if you think you stand, beware, lest you fall. 13 No trial greater than human endurance has overcome you. God is faithful and will not let you be tempted beyond your strength. He will give you, together with the temptation, the strength to escape and to resist.​

 

[Josiah]

People who say "I am saved" or "I was saved on such and such a day when I decided for Christ" need to take what the holy scriptures say to heart

1 Corinthians 10:11 These things happened to them, as an example, and they were written as a warning, for us, as the last times come upon us. 12 Therefore, if you think you stand, beware, lest you fall. 13 No trial greater than human endurance has overcome you. God is faithful and will not let you be tempted beyond your strength. He will give you, together with the temptation, the strength to escape and to resist.​

You are AGAIN confusing very different things.

Paul is simply saying that justification can be lost. NOT that self saves (narrow justification) self in a slow, never-ended, progressive process of performing good works - making Jesus a sick joke, the Gospel wrong, Christianity false, and self the Savior of self.

Let us use this example: I was GIVEN physical life around March 23, 1987. GIVEN. Now, can I commit suicide? Yes. Does that mean that ERGO I gave myself life or that meanwhile I don't have life? No. You are gravely twisting and abusing what Paul wrote.



.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It does not say that the Holy Spirit baptizes...

Water was not the point there, but Who Baptizes IS...

And it is NOT the Holy Spirit DOING the Baptizing...

So did Christ command His Apostles to baptize all the nations???

Arsenios

You are right, brother Arsenios, it is not the Holy Spirit who performs the baptism mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:12-13. The passage says otherwise,

1 Corinthians 12:12-13 12 For just as the body is one, and yet has many parts, so all the parts of the body, though they are many, are only one body. So also is Christ. 13 And indeed, in one Spirit, we were all baptised into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether servant or free. And we all drank in the one Spirit. ​

It is far better to read the passage as referring to Christian baptism as baptism into the body and the Spirit and receiving the Holy Spirit as one receives the water of life. Christ said "I am the living water" and it is evident that the Holy Spirit is in union with Jesus Christ.

 

[Arsenios]

For also IN one Spirit we all into one body have been baptized.

God baptizes us into Christ...
No water used.

You got that from this text?? :

For IN one Spirit we have all been baptized into one Body...

Water is not denied...
The Spirit does not baptize...
We ALL have the SAME Baptism...
We are baptized IN the Holy Spirit...
We are not baptized BY the Holy Spirit...

Interesting exercise in grammar...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

You are right, brother Arsenios, it is not the Holy Spirit who performs the baptism mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:12-13.

Nor is it the Baptism Christ commands His Apostles to baptize ALL the nations:

Matt 28:19
Go ye therefore,
and teach all nations,
baptizing them in the Name
of the Father,
and of the Son,
and of the Holy Ghost:

Christ baptizes ALL...
By the hands of His Body,
By His Ekklesiastical Servants...

Had Christ baptized Saul on the Road to Damascus,
He would NOT have had Ananias baptize him...
There is only ONE Baptism INTO Christ...

Nothing in the Bible about "Social Proclamation Baptism"...
That is a purely humanistic doctrine...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

You are AGAIN confusing very different things.

Paul is simply saying that justification can be lost. NOT that self saves (narrow justification) self in a slow, never-ended, progressive process of performing good works - making Jesus a sick joke, the Gospel wrong, Christianity false, and self the Savior of self.

Let us use this example: I was GIVEN physical life around March 23, 1987. GIVEN. Now, can I commit suicide? Yes. Does that mean that ERGO I gave myself life or that meanwhile I don't have life? No. You are gravely twisting and abusing what Paul wrote.

Maturation in Christ is progressive,
done BY Christ,
according to His Will
in accordance with man's obedience to [love for] Him
Him Who is justifying the man
The man overcoming the evil powers and principalities of death
Death in this fallen life in which we walk
In the Valley of the Shadow of Death...

Think interactive...

Ask and you shall receive...

Don't ask, and you shall not receive...

We are commanded to ask...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Nor is it the Baptism Christ commands His Apostles to baptize ALL the nations:

Matt 28:19
Go ye therefore,
and teach all nations,
baptizing them in the Name
of the Father,
and of the Son,
and of the Holy Ghost:

Christ baptizes ALL...
By the hands of His Body,
By His Ekklesiastical Servants...

Had Christ baptized Saul on the Road to Damascus,
He would NOT have had Ananias baptize him...
There is only ONE Baptism INTO Christ...

Nothing in the Bible about "Social Proclamation Baptism"...
That is a purely humanistic doctrine...


Arsenios

I cannot answer for the theories presented by others here or elsewhere. To me baptism usually refers to the rite that is administered by the Church for the penitent who seek admission into the community of faith.

 

[Arsenios]

To me baptism usually refers to the rite that is administered by the Church for the penitent who seek admission into the community of faith.

It is a Mystery of the Faith of Christ wherein the Body of Christ Baptizes a penitent INTO His Body...

It is what Christ does with His Body, the Church...

Hence it is a Sacrament of the Church...

I would hesitate to call it "administered", because I am no fan of "administrations"... And the term Rite has similar hesitancies for me...

It is a Mystery DONE by the Body of our Lord Who is Her Head...

The CONSECRATION of a soul to God BY God with His Body...

As for infants, we baptize them at 40 days, and their parents accept the responsibility for raising them according to the Way of Christ in the Church... The parents as members of the Body present the child to the Body of Christ for the ENTRY of that Child INTO Christ's Body...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

I am not sure what the most common age (in days) of an infant presented for baptism might be. From what I've seen, many are several months old, but many parents who present their children for baptism are infrequent attendees at mass so I guess that their religion is partly cultural and partly something else (God willing something better than culture).

 

[Josiah]

Ask and you shall receive...

Don't ask, and you shall not receive...

We are commanded to ask...

Arsenios

Again, you are confusing very different things.....

Where is a DEAD ATHEIST ENEMY of God every told to just pray for spiritual life, faith in Christ, and the Holy Spirit - and in answer to that prayer, receive it? In fact, Scripture says that no one CAN even chant the words "Jesus is Lord" believing such without FIRST having the Holy Spirit. Sure.... the CHRISTIAN, the JUSTIFIED, the one WITH faith and spiritual life and the Holy Spirit can pray and what we ask in faith and in accord with the will of God is effectual - but again, there is NOTHING that says that a DEAD, ATHEIST, EMEMY of God who hates and denies God will receive spiritual life, saving faith and the Holy Spirit if he prays to God (whom he denies exists) and aks (without faith) for it.