ROMANS 11 WHO IS THE WILD OLIVE TREE?

[Lamb]

Why would you ask that like that?

Because you have been arguing against your sins being forgiven at the cross. At least, that's how it comes across. Do you believe your sins were forgiven at the cross when Jesus died?

 

[YourTruthGod]

Because you have been arguing against your sins being forgiven at the cross. At least, that's how it comes across. Do you believe your sins were forgiven at the cross when Jesus died?

My sins were not forgiven until I went to the cross and confessed them and repented of them.

 

[Lamb]

My sins were not forgiven until I went to the cross and confessed them and repented of them.

Where do you think the forgiveness you received originated from????

 

[YourTruthGod]

Where do you think the forgiveness you received originated from????

The blood of the Lamb is about forgiveness of sins that you are sorry for and repent of doing.

Hebrews 10:19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus,

 

[Arsenios]

I believe you are misunderstanding what I have stated concerning repentance. I have said nothing against repentance so please try to read through again my posts concerning the topic.

You declined to make repentance a pre-condition for Salvation...

If it in fact IS such a pre-condition, you are preventing those who believe you from Salvation...

If it is not, then you cannot avoid easy-believerism...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

You declined to make repentance a pre-condition for Salvation...

God does not make repentance a pre-condition for him to adopt. If he did, grace would not exist.

If it in fact IS such a pre-condition, you are preventing those who believe you from Salvation...

It's not a pre-condition. No one can prevent the Sovereign God from doing what He chooses to do. You cannot prevent God from saving someone. It's arrogant of you to suggest that you have such power over God.

If it is not, then you cannot avoid easy-believerism...

False. No one can believe unless God graciously gives them life and grants them the gift of faith.
There is no such thing as "easy believism" because humans cannot will themselves to believe. They are spiritually dead in their trespasses and sins.
Arsenios, your theology is man-centered and portrays God as weak and incapable to overcome human will. You shock me with your disrespect of God.

 

[YourTruthGod]

God does not make repentance a pre-condition for him to adopt. If he did, grace would not exist.

Grace is that we don't have to purify ourselves day after day, year after year.

Grace is not, "You don't have to do anything anymore."

It's not a pre-condition. No one can prevent the Sovereign God from doing what He chooses to do. You cannot prevent God from saving someone. It's arrogant of you to suggest that you have such power over God.

Prevent God from saving someone?

God says we have to have faith and we have to repent of our sins.

False. No one can believe unless God graciously gives them life and grants them the gift of faith.

Faith comes from hearing and being taught, persuaded, and convinced.

Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11.

From the scriptures I see that all men are born with a measure of faith, and that we can either become harder, and what we have taken from us or more faith can be given to us by hearing about God, learning of Him, and being, convinced, and persuaded.

We have to stand firm until the end.

Romans 12:3 King James Version (KJV)
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

God has given everyone a measure of faith.
Just some people do not have enough faith.
That is the people's own fault.

John 1:9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Luke 17:5 The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!"

There is no such thing as "easy believism" because humans cannot will themselves to believe. They are spiritually dead in their trespasses and sins.
Arsenios, your theology is man-centered and portrays God as weak and incapable to overcome human will. You shock me with your disrespect of God.

It is disrespectful to God what you do.

God says repent and have faith then I will save you.

You say, "No, I cannot, You must save me first.

 

[Lamb]

The blood of the Lamb is about forgiveness of sins that you are sorry for and repent of doing.

Hebrews 10:19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus,

The blood of the lamb is the blood of Jesus who is our sacrificial lamb. His blood was the sacrifice God accepted for the forgiveness of our sins. Hebrews 9:22 "And without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness".

 

[Lamb]

You declined to make repentance a pre-condition for Salvation...

If it in fact IS such a pre-condition, you are preventing those who believe you from Salvation...

If it is not, then you cannot avoid easy-believerism...


Arsenios

God's plan from the very beginning was to offer himself up as the sacrifice for the sin of the world. By grace through faith (in the Savior) is salvation. Our repentance is not a pre-condition as you've stated. We can't turn to God unless He turns us to Him by grace through faith. Contrition alone is not the Christian repentance. The Christian repentance means we turn to God in faith and we trust that our sins are forgiven, not because WE have done something or offered God anything but by the very blood of the perfect lamb, Jesus who is the Christ who died for the forgiveness of our sins on the cross. That's the Gospel.

 

[MennoSota]

Grace is that we don't have to purify ourselves day after day, year after year.

Grace is not, "You don't have to do anything anymore."


Prevent God from saving someone?

God says we have to have faith and we have to repent of our sins.



Faith comes from hearing and being taught, persuaded, and convinced.

Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11.

From the scriptures I see that all men are born with a measure of faith, and that we can either become harder, and what we have taken from us or more faith can be given to us by hearing about God, learning of Him, and being, convinced, and persuaded.

We have to stand firm until the end.

Romans 12:3 King James Version (KJV)
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

God has given everyone a measure of faith.
Just some people do not have enough faith.
That is the people's own fault.

John 1:9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Luke 17:5 The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!"



It is disrespectful to God what you do.

God says repent and have faith then I will save you.

You say, "No, I cannot, You must save me first.

Dead men do not repent, nor do they conjure up their own faith.
Grace is: "God giving you what you do not deserve."
I have seen how you and Arsenios mis-handle scripture to create a false gospel of works. Just because you assert requirements by humans before God can save, it does not make your assertion true.
God is the cause agent of salvation, not men.
Repentance is the effect of God's redemption, not the cause of God's redemption.
I simply point you to John 6, John 10, John 17, Romans 3-8 and Ephesians 1-3. If you will not read and understand, I can do nothing more.

 

[Arsenios]

God's plan from the very beginning
was to offer himself up as the sacrifice for the sin of the world.
By grace through faith (in the Savior) is salvation.
Our repentance is not a pre-condition as you've stated.

So what did that saving faith look like, say, for the first thousand years of the history of Salvation in Christ?

We can't turn to God unless He turns us to Him by grace through faith.

The Call of God is unto the obedience of repentance from sin...

That is why John's baptism came before Christ...

It is why Christ had John baptize Him...

Contrition alone is not the Christian repentance.

We agree on that...

The Christian repentance means we turn to God in faith and we trust that our sins are forgiven,
not because WE have done something or offered God anything but by the very blood of the perfect lamb,
Jesus who is the Christ who died for the forgiveness of our sins on the cross. That's the Gospel.

There was repentance unto Salvation prior to Christ's Crucifixion...

What we have now is a New Creation IN Christ...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Dead men do not repent

ONLY your so-called dead men NEED to repent...

If you will not read and understand, I can do nothing more.

Is that a promise??


Arsenios

 

[Lamb]

So what did that saving faith look like, say, for the first thousand years of the history of Salvation in Christ?

Before Jesus died on the cross, God's people trusted in Him to save them by giving them the promised Messiah from Genesis. Salvation has always been by grace through faith and the faith is trusting in God and that He will forgive them not by their deeds. Repentance is turning away from sin and back to God, the one who forgives and forgiveness is by blood. Not our blood, but Jesus' blood.

When we sin we turn from God but He wants us to keep our eyes on Him. Come let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross...

 

[YourTruthGod]

Before Jesus died on the cross, God's people trusted in Him to save them by giving them the promised Messiah from Genesis. Salvation has always been by grace through faith and the faith is trusting in God and that He will forgive them not by their deeds.

No way has grace always been the way.
The people had the purification works of the law to do to clean themselves just to be called a child of God.

The people had to stop sinning AND do the purification works of the law.

Repentance is turning away from sin and back to God, the one who forgives and forgiveness is by blood. Not our blood, but Jesus' blood.

When we sin we turn from God but He wants us to keep our eyes on Him. Come let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross...

Repentance is not turning back to God, because many Greeks and Gentiles never heard of God and Jesus.

We have to repent of our sins.

 

[MennoSota]

ONLY your so-called dead men NEED to repent...

When God makes them alive with Christ, they will repent. As long as they are dead in their trespasses and sins, they cannot repent.
Salvation is not a matter of human will power.

Is that a promise??
Arsenios.

It's a fact. The responsibility is upon you to stop brutally misinterpreting salvation as a works based gospel.

 

[YourTruthGod]

When God makes them alive with Christ, they will repent. As long as they are dead in their trespasses and sins, they cannot repent.
Salvation is not a matter of human will power.


It's a fact. The responsibility is upon you to stop brutally misinterpreting salvation as a works based gospel.

No way does Jesus says he saves people before they have faith and repent of their sins.

What do you think he came preaching?

 

[MennoSota]

No way has grace always been the way.

Yes way. In the garden, it was God's grace that spared Adam and Eve, not their repentance.
In Ur of the Chaldese it was grace that chose Abraham and provided the promise to all God's elect.

The people had the purification works of the law to do to clean themselves just to be called a child of God.

The Mosaic Law never saved anyone. The law was given to show people they are sinners who cannot justify their sins or perform rituals to make themselves holy through acts of self-righteousness. God never considered them to be His children by their self-righteous purification rituals. If He had...there would have been no reason for Jesus, our Redeemer. Job would have never declared:
Job 19:25-27 For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. My heart faints within me!
You have created a false god who is inconsistent in his redemptive plan.

The people had to stop sinning AND do the purification works of the law.

No. First, humans cannot will themselves to stop sinning. Second, no self-righteous action ever saved a person. You are wrong.

Repentance is not turning back to God, because many Greeks and Gentiles never heard of God and Jesus.

Repentance means "To turn from one thing toward another thing." 1 Thessalonians describes repentance. Notice it is an effect...caused by God.
1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

We have to repent of our sins.

Believers WILL repent...because God has made them alive with Christ. The Holy Spirit moves us to repentance by his counseling work in our lives.

As long as you and Arsenios continue to preach a false gospel of works salvation, you will fail to comprehend God's grace.

 

[MennoSota]

No way does Jesus says he saves people before they have faith and repent of their sins.

What do you think he came preaching?

Read John 6, John 10 and John 17. Jesus refutes your assertion.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Read John 6, John 10 and John 17. Jesus refutes your assertion.

Don't be silly. I know the scriptures and they do not refute what I say.

They refute John Calvin.

 

[Lamb]

No way has grace always been the way.
The people had the purification works of the law to do to clean themselves just to be called a child of God.

The people had to stop sinning AND do the purification works of the law.



Repentance is not turning back to God, because many Greeks and Gentiles never heard of God and Jesus.

We have to repent of our sins.

If not by grace then it's by works and scriptures tells us that salvation is NOT by works in Ephesians.

Repentance is turning back to God. Acts 3:19.