Refuting Catholic Church bogus claim of succession...

[Arsenios]

Saving pieces of someone's bones or clothing, etc. is one thing. It is not admirable, but it may be understandable as something that impressed peasant followers of the church in a bygone era. But what really is unforgivable is for the church to actually teach that miracles will occur or have occurred because of such items. And yet there are several denominations that do promote such superstition.

God's Grace is much more focused and pervasive than you know...

The Church's focus on relics is profoundly empirical...

Salvation is body and soul...

The body of a Saint is Holy...

And God's Grace abounds...

God is wondrous in His Saints...

"Whom He hath Justified, these also He Glorified..."

Biblically, the shadow of Peter healed, as did also mere pieces of cloth blessed and sent forth by the Apostles...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

It has been embraced, and not comdemned, by Christianity, for 2000 years now and counting...


Arsenios

Wrong. It has been embraced by your church and the church at Rome who have promoted idolatry for 1600 years now...and counting...

 

[Albion]

God's Grace is much more focused and pervasive than you know...

Such sophistry can be used to justify almost any false doctrine or even false gods. Just take that statement of yours and consider what religious belief or practice is excluded by that reasoning. Almost nothing.

 

[Arsenios]

Such sophistry can be used to justify almost any false doctrine or even false gods. Just take that statement of yours and consider what religious belief or practice is excluded by that reasoning. Almost nothing.

You are right - God is not excluded all that easily...

Would you hear Shakespeare?
"There is much more between heaven and earth than is dreamed of in your philosophy..."??

The shadow of Peter healed the sick...
How much more his body...
How much more his prayers...

You might as well try to stop the sunrise as to limit God...

Barlaam's Donkey will sing forth in Truth!

Limiting God is a vain endeavor...

Wondrous is God IN His Saints!

"Those believing in Me shall never die..."

Though they depart in the appearance of death from this earth...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Wrong. It has been embraced by your church and the church at Rome who have promoted idolatry for 1600 years now...and counting...

2000 years, Menno...

We still have the Head of St. John the Baptist...
We do not eat from platters on his Feast Day each year...

We are the Ancient Faith...
Think "Middle-Earth" for an approximation...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The Body of a Martyred Saint is in certain ways a Trophy of the Faith of Christ, because it proclaims openly and to all that the most heinous death contrivable by the haters of God had no power over the Holy Ones of God... Against Whom "the Gates of Hades shall not prevail..."

The Power of God in His Martyrs is presented in the docu-drama titles "The End of the Spear"...

The old man interviewed at the end, who had speared the protestant Missionary Martyr - He was converted in that Martyr's death (and those with him) by the Love of the Holy Spirit, and those with him who helped in the killing... They did not kill the women, the Martyr's wives, who came later, but submitted to them...

Great works find Great Grace...
Less works find less Grace...

Martyrdom is a great work...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Enough for...ever. The whole relic schpeel is all gimmick and no substance. It goes entirely contrary to scripture while turning into a blatant form of idolatry. It must be summarily condemned by Christianity.

So let's see you go into Rihad, Saudi Arabia, and preach the Gospel of Christ...

You will become a relic rather quickly...

I am, at my age, pretty much of a relic already...

Old and smelly, I say!!

We do not shrink from worldly death...

We are baptized INTO worldly death...

And only thus INTO Christ...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

2000 years, Menno...

We still have the Head of St. John the Baptist...
We do not eat from platters on his Feast Day each year...

We are the Ancient Faith...
Think "Middle-Earth" for an approximation...

Arsenios

No you don't. You say you have his skull, but your boyz just grabbed a skull and said to the masses, "Lookie here, we got JTB's head!" Now, y'all worship the skull as an idol.
Honestly, you need to toss out the paganism in your church. It is an anathema to God and the body of Christ.

 

[MennoSota]

So let's see you go into Rihad, Saudi Arabia, and preach the Gospel of Christ...

You will become a relic rather quickly...

I am, at my age, pretty much of a relic already...

Old and smelly, I say!!

We do not shrink from worldly death...

We are baptized INTO worldly death...

And only thus INTO Christ...


Arsenios

You speak falsely. You speak false words taught by your church, but unsupported by scripture.
The gospel of God's gracious choosing in salvation is despised by all who desire to work their way into God's favor. The elect have been martyred from the beginning, starting with Abel.
What you teach is not the gospel of grace, but just another method of works that hopes it finds favor with God. Your teaching mirrors Islam more than it mirrors Christ and that is sad.

 

[Andrew]

Your teaching mirrors Islam more than it mirrors Christ and that is sad.

Ouch! Even I felt that sting!

 

[MennoSota]

Ouch! Even I felt that sting!

I will not soften my response to false teaching.

 

[Arsenios]

No you don't. You say you have his skull, but your boyz just grabbed a skull and said to the masses, "Lookie here, we got JTB's head!" Now, y'all worship the skull as an idol.
Honestly, you need to toss out the paganism in your church. It is an anathema to God and the body of Christ.

Thank you for your prayers for me...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Thank you for your prayers for me...


Arsenios

Thank you for repenting of the paganism taught by your church and leaving idolatry behind. Be like the Thessalonians and turn from idols to the living God.

 

[psalms 91]

So let's see you go into Rihad, Saudi Arabia, and preach the Gospel of Christ...

You will become a relic rather quickly...

I am, at my age, pretty much of a relic already...

Old and smelly, I say!!

We do not shrink from worldly death...

We are baptized INTO worldly death...

And only thus INTO Christ...


Arsenios

Are you thinking of we have to die to self in order to become more Christlike?

 

[Josiah]

I find the whole custom of relics to be strange.... detracting of the Gospel.... and yes, rather pagan. This custom is FAR less than it was before the Reformation (for which we should give thanks) but is still around. https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/blog/post/a-relic-is-a-reminder/


I find the whole "apostolic succession" thing very bogus. It is without support in Scripture and in history.... and it seems was developed as a myth to prop up the POWER GRABS of some bishops, especially the one in Rome. It simply a way to diminish the Lordship of Christ (who never resigned!) and to enlarge the POWER of hungry men and denominations.



- Josiah




.

 

[Albion]

I find the whole "apostolic succession" thing very bogus. It is without support in Scripture and in history.... and it seems was developed as a myth to prop up the POWER GRABS of some bishops, especially the one in Rome. It simply a way to diminish the Lordship of Christ (who never resigned!) and to enlarge the POWER of hungry men and denominations.

I think there is some misunderstanding of Apostolic Succession here. First, it was not developed as a myth. It was developed for a very practical reason--much like the myth (?) that we operate under in most of our denominations today by which we say that a graduate of an accredited seminary is eligible to be called to a pastorate if other considerations also are met, but not someone who just comes along like the proverbial founder of a non-denominational church who announces that he has felt a call from God, so that's all that is needed for him to start preaching, administering the sacraments, and so on.

Apostolic Succession developed in the first century out of the concern of ordinary people as well as the church itself that the preacher--and there were plenty of evangelists moving about in those days trying to make converts to Christianity--be well-grounded in the true faith that the Apostles who knew Christ personally allegedly had taught. The clerics and preachers, etc. who had studied under an actual Apostle--and to some extent under a pupil of one of them--had a stronger resume when it came to orthodoxy than someone who learned of Christ in another way. The system was, in time, institutionalized, for the sake of good order in the church.

That being said, what else some churches attach to the concept of Apostolic Succession is another matter.

 

[Arsenios]

Are you thinking of we have to die to self in order to become more Christlike?

Without question...

Salvation is, in its final form on this earth, the Glorification of man by God...
God is Glorified in His Holy Ones (Saints)...
The shadow of Peter healed the sick...

We are Called by God to Repentance from sin in denial of self...
We are then Justified by God in Baptism into Christ the Son of God...
We then take up our own cross following Christ overcoming demonic powers... ("running the race set before us")
When we have matured in this slaying of Goliath in the Holy Land of Promise, for that is where we find these giants of opposition to our ascent in the Faith of Christ, we are then Glorified by God in the Gifts of the Spirit...

In all this, which is the Way of Salvation, it is our willingness to follow it that is at issue, and it is not God's Willingness to Glorify us... And God fore-knows who will and who will not ascend and how far each of us will - But WE do NOT know, so from a human perspective, it can SEEM to be an entirely human effort, yet it is God who IMPARTS both strength and weakness in the penitent being perfected in the Faith of Christ which He discipled to His Disciples...

The first and foremost matter is denial of self...

"If ANYone is willing to come after Me,
Let him first deny himself..."

Overcoming self is the basis of discipleship...
It is a life-long committment to the Way of Christ...
Who has no certain place to lay His Head...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I think there is some misunderstanding of Apostolic Succession here. First, it was not developed as a myth. It was developed for a very practical reason--much like the myth (?) that we operate under in most of our denominations today by which we say that a graduate of an accredited seminary is eligible to be called to a pastorate if other considerations also are met, but not someone who just comes along like the proverbial founder of a non-denominational church who announces that he has felt a call from God, so that's all that is needed for him to start preaching, administering the sacraments, and so on.

Apostolic Succession developed in the first century out of the concern of ordinary people as well as the church itself that the preacher--and there were plenty of evangelists moving about in those days trying to make converts to Christianity--be well-grounded in the true faith that the Apostles who knew Christ personally allegedly had taught. The clerics and preachers, etc. who had studied under an actual Apostle--and to some extent under a pupil of one of them--had a stronger resume when it came to orthodoxy than someone who learned of Christ in another way. The system was, in time, institutionalized, for the sake of good order in the church.

That being said, what else some churches attach to the concept of Apostolic Succession is another matter.

While this is a good human and institutional way to understand Apostolic Succession, it is far, far deeper, for it is the Holy Spirit Himself working and flowing and directing in Power the very Body of Christ as it has been established upon the earth of His Creation...

Anyone can pick up a battery and light a flashlight...
Others can plug into the wall socket's 110v...
Some manage 220...
Others 440...

But these are all tinker toys, you see...

The question is not how men and women organized themselves in Churches after Christ's Ascension...
It is about the History, the Sacred History, of the Holy Spirit in Power, in the world in Christ's Body in man...


Arsenios

 

[Albion]

While this is a good human and institutional way to understand Apostolic Succession, it is far, far deeper, for it is the Holy Spirit Himself working and flowing and directing in Power the very Body of Christ as it has been established upon the earth of His Creation...

Some churches need to dress up ordinary--and good--developments in church history with plenty of romantic imagery and, of course, claims that God wanted it this way from the beginning of time, etc. But I was intending in that post of mine to be true to history and to indicate the value to the church of Apostolic Succession minus the superstitions that grew up around it.

 

[Andrew]

Some churches need to dress up ordinary--and good--developments in church history with plenty of romantic imagery and, of course, claims that God wanted it this way from the beginning of time, etc. But I was intending in that post of mine to be true to history and to indicate the value to the church of Apostolic Succession minus the superstitions that grew up around it.

It was a good explanation Albion.
The church also wouldn't allow the people to actually own a bible for a time, at this time only certain men could preach from it.
In my opinion and also men like John Wycliffe and Martin Luther, the church slowly but surely started taking away from the word and adding on to the word likewise, causing such great damage that the church has still to repair a great amount.
So this succession was a failure and thus not a great example of being learned men of the apostle Peter.