Purgatory?

[MennoSota]

Jesus delivered him but the flesh has death in it and is dead to the law of God, the mind can be obedient to the law of God but due to flesh we must repent every sin it causes. I like the way he pointed to himself as a man struggling in perfection but no judging others like you did, he said it better because he is Paul haha.
Take the meme in honor I thought it would look funny, im sorry

Your view removes grace and requires works. Your view falls short of the glory of God and makes you your own savior.

 

[Andrew]

Judges 6:22-23
[22]When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the lord, he cried out, “Oh, Sovereign lord, I’m doomed! I have seen the angel of the lord face to face!”
[23]“It is all right,” the lord replied. “Do not be afraid. You will not die.”

I believe God uses angels as messengers to speak on his behalf, it is interesting to speculate

 

[MoreCoffee]

Right, so you can see God and live.

1 John 4:12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God lives in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Nope, you cannot see God in this world. Maybe somebody can have a vision of God or have God appear as the angels also appeared at times or see Jesus - but I doubt people's claims to be seeing these things today. As the scripture says no one has ever seen God.

 

[MennoSota]

oh then God must have been mistaken.

No, but we are making an argument for the Trinity.

 

[MennoSota]

I believe God uses angels as messengers to speak on his behalf, it is interesting to speculate

This messenger is God the Son, Jesus. No speculation, it's in the text. Gideon saw God...and God graciously let him live.

 

[MoreCoffee]

LOL, 1 John 4:12 has nothing to do with our human condition. Care to try again or just accept the checkmate?!

What condition does it deal with if not with "our human condition"?

Albert Barnes says The statement seems to be made here in order to introduce a remark to show in what way we may know that we have any true knowledge of God. The idea is, “He has never indeed been seen by mortal eyes. We are not, then, to expect to become acquainted with what he is in that way. But there is a method by which we may be assured that we have a true knowledge of him, and that is, by evidence that we love another, and by the presence of his Spirit in our hearts. We cannot become acquainted with him by sight, but we may by love.” (Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible)

 

[Andrew]

Your view removes grace and requires works. Your view falls short of the glory of God and makes you your own savior.

We all fall short brother. Read Hebrews 6:6 again, we must strive for perfection by repentance of sin because it is the right thing to do instead of indulging in sin, we battle not against flesh and blood so our "works" per say is more of a mental and personal to ones self in obedience as the Spirit guides your conscious by grace.

 

[Andrew]

This messenger is God the Son, Jesus. No speculation, it's in the text. Gideon saw God...and God graciously let him live.

A lot of people saw Jesus I am almost certain of it

 

[MoreCoffee]

Judges 6:22-23

[22]When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the lord, he cried out, “Oh, Sovereign lord, I’m doomed! I have seen the angel of the lord face to face!”
[23]“It is all right,” the lord replied. “Do not be afraid. You will not die.”​

Pay close attention When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the lord What Gideon saw was the angel of the Lord he did not see God face to face.

 

[MennoSota]

What condition does it deal with if not with "our human condition"?

Albert Barnes says The statement seems to be made here in order to introduce a remark to show in what way we may know that we have any true knowledge of God. The idea is, “He has never indeed been seen by mortal eyes. We are not, then, to expect to become acquainted with what he is in that way. But there is a method by which we may be assured that we have a true knowledge of him, and that is, by evidence that we love another, and by the presence of his Spirit in our hearts. We cannot become acquainted with him by sight, but we may by love.” (Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible)

The context (something you seem to struggle with) informs us.

1 John 4:4-19
[4]But you belong to God, my dear children. You have already won a victory over those people, because the Spirit who lives in you is greater than the spirit who lives in the world.
[5]Those people belong to this world, so they speak from the world’s viewpoint, and the world listens to them.
[6]But we belong to God, and those who know God listen to us. If they do not belong to God, they do not listen to us. That is how we know if someone has the Spirit of truth or the spirit of deception.
[7]Dear friends, let us continue to love one another, for love comes from God. Anyone who loves is a child of God and knows God.
[8]But anyone who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
[9]God showed how much he loved us by sending his one and only Son into the world so that we might have eternal life through him.
[10]This is real love—not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as a sacrifice to take away our sins.
[11]Dear friends, since God loved us that much, we surely ought to love each other.
[12]No one has ever seen God. But if we love each other, God lives in us, and his love is brought to full expression in us.
[13]And God has given us his Spirit as proof that we live in him and he in us.
[14]Furthermore, we have seen with our own eyes and now testify that the Father sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
[15]All who declare that Jesus is the Son of God have God living in them, and they live in God.
[16]We know how much God loves us, and we have put our trust in his love.God is love, and all who live in love live in God, and God lives in them.
[17]And as we live in God, our love grows more perfect. So we will not be afraid on the day of judgment, but we can face him with confidence because we live like Jesus here in this world.
[18]Such love has no fear, because perfect love expels all fear. If we are afraid, it is for fear of punishment, and this shows that we have not fully experienced his perfect love.
[19]We love each other because he loved us first.

Nothing in the text fits with your assertion. Care to try again or accept checkmate?

 

[Andrew]

Here is something interesting you probably wont believe but anyway. I have met a few people who claimed to have had a vision of Jesus as they were in a state of death, one was my blessed Grandmother, but they say that when they saw Jesus they could never see his face it was shining bright like the sun. neato

 

[MennoSota]

Pay close attention When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the lord What Gideon saw was the angel of the Lord he did not see God face to face.

He thought he was a dead man. He saw God. Read the passage, check out the Hebrew used and know that it is God whom Gideon saw.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The context (something you seem to struggle with) informs us.

1 John 4:4-19

[4]But you belong to God, my dear children. You have already won a victory over those people, because the Spirit who lives in you is greater than the spirit who lives in the world.
[5]Those people belong to this world, so they speak from the world’s viewpoint, and the world listens to them.
[6]But we belong to God, and those who know God listen to us. If they do not belong to God, they do not listen to us. That is how we know if someone has the Spirit of truth or the spirit of deception.
[7]Dear friends, let us continue to love one another, for love comes from God. Anyone who loves is a child of God and knows God.
[8]But anyone who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
[9]God showed how much he loved us by sending his one and only Son into the world so that we might have eternal life through him.
[10]This is real love—not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as a sacrifice to take away our sins.
[11]Dear friends, since God loved us that much, we surely ought to love each other.
[12]No one has ever seen God. But if we love each other, God lives in us, and his love is brought to full expression in us.
[13]And God has given us his Spirit as proof that we live in him and he in us.
[14]Furthermore, we have seen with our own eyes and now testify that the Father sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
[15]All who declare that Jesus is the Son of God have God living in them, and they live in God.
[16]We know how much God loves us, and we have put our trust in his love.God is love, and all who live in love live in God, and God lives in them.
[17]And as we live in God, our love grows more perfect. So we will not be afraid on the day of judgment, but we can face him with confidence because we live like Jesus here in this world.
[18]Such love has no fear, because perfect love expels all fear. If we are afraid, it is for fear of punishment, and this shows that we have not fully experienced his perfect love.
[19]We love each other because he loved us first.​

Nothing in the text fits with your assertion. Care to try again or accept checkmate?

The bit in bold and underlined text fits my assertion that No one has ever seen God and I make the assertion because it is what holy scripture says. It says so several times in holy scripture. Here are some other places where it is said.

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is the same as God and is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
John 6:46 This does not mean that anyone has seen the Father; he who is from God is the only one who has seen the Father.
Exodus 33:20 I will not let you see my face, because no one can see me and stay alive,
​

 

[MoreCoffee]

He thought he was a dead man. He saw God. Read the passage, check out the Hebrew used and know that it is God whom Gideon saw.

No, Gideon thought he was doomed because he saw the angel of the Lord. Read what the passage says again. Note what he says. Oh, Sovereign lord, I’m doomed! I have seen the angel of the lord face to face!”

 

[Imalive]

hahahahahahahahahahaha

 

[MennoSota]

The bit in bold and underlined text fits my assertion that No one has ever seen God and I make the assertion because it is what holy scripture says. It says so several times in holy scripture. Here are some other places where it is said.

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is the same as God and is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
John 6:46 This does not mean that anyone has seen the Father; he who is from God is the only one who has seen the Father.
Exodus 33:20 I will not let you see my face, because no one can see me and stay alive,
​

Is Jesus God?

The myth is that nothing unholy can be tolerated in God's presence, yet in Job we see Satan going before God as the accuser.
Sinners walked with and touched Jesus.
The point is this:
1) God is Sovereign
2) God chooses to be gracious as he wills.
3) God chooses to execute justice upon whom he wills.
4) Your use of 1 John 4 is out of context in relation to any argument regarding purgatory.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Is Jesus God?

The myth is that nothing unholy can be tolerated in God's presence, yet in Job we see Satan going before God as the accuser.
Sinners walked with and touched Jesus.
The point is this:
1) God is Sovereign
2) God chooses to be gracious as he wills.
3) God chooses to execute justice upon whom he wills.
4) Your use of 1 John 4 is out of context in relation to any argument regarding purgatory.

Jesus is God and people saw Jesus yet they did not see God they saw God incarnate with his glory veiled in human flesh. Don't you read the bible? You seem hell bent on saying things that are unbiblical just to "prove yourself right". Honestly, can't you ever admit to being mistaken?

 

[Andrew]

Menno I see what you are saying about wretchedness, I have beaten myself up before to the point of having a few surgeries in a year, what God has delivered from me is a blessing but I do seek further deliverance by grace. Today I feel a bit weak but I pray that my more joyful days are still to come. Can you explain tho what your definition of works is? Like specific examples, is prayer and repentance a form of works? I believe God does the impossible but are we not to be willing with mind body and soul? Salvation is won but should not we fear God even so?
I have an issue with pleasing others and its a lot like the guy in the video imalive posted. I usher 3 times a week, no problem but I feel they expect more, I also go to bible study once a week and have been asked to support tithing and to involve myself in the future in Out Reach, going from house to house for converts. The out reach is something I am not considering, I see it as a lost cause and its not the same as charity as I read in the bible.
I fear overkill not for myself but for true converts not to withdrawal in such a short time. I work 10 hours a day sometimes more, I am helping out my dad financially because he is not working due to neck surgery. Feeling burnt out sounds like the works you describe, I love my brothers but I am starting to feel like they want to save people just for themselves, I am however not so pushy but stand firm in my faith and views.
I ask you these things and I must confess that I should not have lashed out the way I did in previous post, regardless if you think my views are heretical and pagan and so forth. I need to reconsider and deeply ask you sincerely what "works" means to you for the sake of future consideration.

 

[Imalive]

All these grace works doctrins. Read Phillippians 1 and 2. Can't get any clearer than that.

 

[Andrew]

All these grace works doctrins. Read Phillippians 1 and 2. Can't get any clearer than that.

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace. For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ. And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.
Philippians 1:6-10

Yes!