Pilate’s regret

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Not through just physically dying, but through dying with Christ.

Why?

Our old sinful nature has to cease to exist.

And how does Christ's death make our sinful nature cease to exist? It doesn't seem to be doing that. There are Christians who sin less than others and there are people from other religions who sin less than some Christians.

We can put it to death, decide to not sin.

So can people from any other religion. If you look into Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism etc., you will find people who abstain from most vices that Christianity defines as sins.

That is not possible without the cross.

It seemed to be perfectly possible for Enoch, Elijah, Samuel etc.

The O.T. saints were forgiven, but they could not get a new nature.

Is there any verifiable proof of this? There are numerous people in ancient religions who lived very holy lives. There have been many Buddhist monks centuries before Christ living in chastity, peace and harmony.

Now it's a sin to take an extra wife, cause a christian can say no to his flesh, but David was allowed to have a load of women, because he had his flesh nature, that couldn't get killed or be done away.

This is proven false by the numerous examples of celibate Buddhist monks who mastered their sexual desires and lived in chastity centuries before Christ.

That happened when Jesus died. Had He not died and risen, there would be no hope. Everyone would die being sinful, always having to sin again and say God said hey I forgive you all and it's all fine, then eternity would be like earth now. Everyone would still be full of sin and kill and steal and hurt others. It had to be destroyed.

How exactly does Jesus' death achieve all of this? What's the mechanics of it? What's the relationship between Him dying and what you're saying (which, by the way, does not seem to happening)? Just take a look at any online Christian male community for xxx addiction (such as r/NoFapChristians and you will come across thousands of men who profess faith in Christ and pray often, but are still unable to break free from their lust and addiction. All of this, while there are Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus out there who don't struggle with this issue.

We sinned, so we were a slave to sin and the author of sin, satan. His nature was in everyone. That had to be cut out. The snake on the pole in the desert.
When we die with Christ we are not slaves to sin anymore. We get a new heart. Spiritual circumcision, the evil flesh part is cut off.

Why do you do this? Why do you speak in metaphors and expect people to understand what you're saying? People cannot "die with Christ". Christ died almost 2000 years ago. We cannot time travel. We can't join Christ on the cross. What do you mean by saying "when we die with Christ"? How does Christ's death achieve the cutting out of the sin nature? What does the snake on the pole in the desert have to do? Why did that broze snake have this property? Why did God make it work that way? Can you make it make sense? I'm pretty sure you can't, but it's worth asking.

 

[Messy]

Why?

And how does Christ's death make our sinful nature cease to exist? It doesn't seem to be doing that. There are Christians who sin less than others and there are people from other religions who sin less than some Christians.

So can people from any other religion. If you look into Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism etc., you will find people who abstain from most vices that Christianity defines as sins.

It seemed to be perfectly possible for Enoch, Elijah, Samuel etc.

Is there any verifiable proof of this? There are numerous people in ancient religions who lived very holy lives. There have been many Buddhist monks centuries before Christ living in chastity, peace and harmony.

This is proven false by the numerous examples of celibate Buddhist monks who mastered their sexual desires and lived in chastity centuries before Christ.

How exactly does Jesus' death achieve all of this? What's the mechanics of it? What's the relationship between Him dying and what you're saying (which, by the way, does not seem to happening)? Just take a look at any online Christian male community for xxx addiction (such as r/NoFapChristians and you will come across thousands of men who profess faith in Christ and pray often, but are still unable to break free from their lust and addiction. All of this, while there are Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus out there who don't struggle with this issue.

Why do you do this? Why do you speak in metaphors and expect people to understand what you're saying? People cannot "die with Christ". Christ died almost 2000 years ago. We cannot time travel. We can't join Christ on the cross. What do you mean by saying "when we die with Christ"? How does Christ's death achieve the cutting out of the sin nature? What does the snake on the pole in the desert have to do? Why did that broze snake have this property? Why did God make it work that way? Can you make it make sense? I'm pretty sure you can't, but it's worth asking.

Why?
My dad always said: because I say so, so I'd say: because God says so.

Yes heathens can obey their conscience, but they can't become perfect like God without Jesus.

Romans 2
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these,
although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Enoch and Elijah yes I don't know why.

That is because most don't preach this. Torben Sondergaard does and he has victory over sin, but they threw him in jail to shut him up. A guy on christian forums was addicted to porn for 30 years. He fasted, prayed. Nothing worked. Eventually he gave up and God said He was well pleased, because He knew all along that he couldn't do it and he had to say out loud Romans 6 that he died with Christ and then he was instantly set free. You have to believe it. Otherwise it doesn't work. If you believe that you are a sinner you act like one, although He carried our sins and made em vanish and also they don't preach much repentance anymore. I read a book from a forefather who got saved because he saw so many christians live Godly lives.

It makes it clear to me, easier to understand, the snake on the pole. Satan is the snake, the satan nature, sinful nature put to death on the cross. He bore our sins in His body. Apparently sins can be in a body and when you then kill that body and He rises with a new spiritual body, the old flesh one is gone and so are the sins and the inclination to sin.

The natural mind cannot understand it. Just ask God to reveal it to you.

 

[Albion]

You're right. I don't understand it. Me and billions of other people who find the idea that God has to kill the innocent in order to forgive the guilty absurd.

Here's a thought--there are certain essentials or fundamentals of the Christian religion that people who join a Christian discussion board are already basically familiar with. For other people who are not as well informed, some serious study on their own or, if not that, enrolling in an inquirers' class at a local church can help them catch up.

Otherwise, it's like a person who comes to a yacht club but doesn't know much more about it than that the members like boats. He should not begin by telling them that a rudder makes no sense since it's underwater.

 

[Lees]

You're right. I don't understand it. Me and billions of other people who find the idea that God has to kill the innocent in order to forgive the guilty absurd.

You don't understand because you don't believe. Just like 'billions of other people'. But, you lied about being a Christian.

You want to find fault with God, Christ, and Christianity, yet you lie about being a Christian. What an oxymoron you are.

Let me help you understand it. Believers represent those that are of God. We can't help it. We are of God. You represent all those not of God. You can't help it. You're not of God.

Thus you always find fault with God. We find no fault with God.

See...it's not complicated.

And, by the way, there are no innocent. All are guilty. All Christians are guilty. But, all Christians have their sins paid for. All Christians will spend eternity with Christ and God in heaven. And that is what really bothers you. We are just like you, but forgiven. We are just like you, yet we believe.

Lees

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Why?
My dad always said: because I say so, so I'd say: because God says so.

If God made all the rules and set up the entire system to work this way, while being perfectly able to make it work in other ways that didn't involve suffering and sacrifice, please tell me why I must be grateful for being saved. If we can distinguish clear patterns of what psychology labels manipulative behavior in God's actions, why would I disregard these patterns?

Yes heathens can obey their conscience, but they can't become perfect like God without Jesus.

Nowhere in the Old Testament does God require anyone to be perfect. He requires them to obey certain rules to the best of their abilities. The idea of humans needing to be perfect is introduced in the New Testament. It is an absurd requirement, considering that we live in imperfect bodies, in imperfect conditions and with too little information about our existence.

That is because most don't preach this. Torben Sondergaard does and he has victory over sin, but they threw him in jail to shut him up. A guy on christian forums was addicted to porn for 30 years. He fasted, prayed. Nothing worked. Eventually he gave up and God said He was well pleased, because He knew all along that he couldn't do it and he had to say out loud Romans 6 that he died with Christ and then he was instantly set free.

Other people have tried this (Romans 6) and it didn't work for them. Let me guess: you don't know why?

It makes it clear to me, easier to understand, the snake on the pole. Satan is the snake, the satan nature, sinful nature put to death on the cross. He bore our sins in His body. Apparently sins can be in a body and when you then kill that body and He rises with a new spiritual body, the old flesh one is gone and so are the sins and the inclination to sin.

How can sins be in a body? Are sins not actions? Are they objects? Are they made of matter or energy or particles of some sort? How can sins be placed in a body that didn't commit them?
Whose inclination to sin is gone after Jesus' resurrection? We can obviously see that it's not the inclination to sin of those who believe in Him because there are numerous Christians who are still addicted to sin despite praying everyday to be delivered.

The natural mind cannot understand it. Just ask God to reveal it to you.

I have, as have thousands of other Christians who prayed everyday for years, only to not receive any revelation and end up losing their faith.

Here's a thought--there are certain essentials or fundamentals of the Christian religion that people who join a Christian discussion board are already basically familiar with. For other people who are not as well informed, some serious study on their own or, if not that, enrolling in an inquirers' class at a local church can help them catch up.

I have studied on my own. I've read The Bible and other theology books that claim to offer explanations for why Jesus had to die. I've watched dozens, if not over a hundred videos from theologians of various Christian denominations. Literally not one of them has made any sense to me because it all boils down to what Messy said, namely that "it was because God said so", which leaves the initial "why?" unanswered.

I had high hopes from Saint Athanasius' "On The Incarnation of The Word", which is usually praised by Christians from all denominations, but no, that didn't make any sense to me either.

The question of "why was it necessary for Jesus to die?" should be easy to answer. "Because God wanted it to be that way" merely tells us why it happened, not why it was necessary. If if wasn't necessary, then the fact that it happened gives me no reason to be grateful for it because, the way I see it, God chose to allow a horrible unnecessary thing to occur.

You don't understand because you don't believe. Just like 'billions of other people'.

Belief is not volitional. As someone who believes, you should know this better than anyone. Unless you are able to change your religious beliefs at will from one minute to another and become a convinced Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist through sheer willpower, you have absolutely no reason to claim that beliefs are volitional. If one is not convinced by the arguments presented to them regarding a certain piece of information, one cannot choose to believe said piece of information.

But, you lied about being a Christian.

Your definition of "Christian". According to your definition of Christian, George MacDonald, the famous Christian theologian who was also a preacher, wasn't a Christian either because he rejected the doctrine of penal substitution. He didn't believe that God punished Jesus instead of us.

You want to find fault with God, Christ, and Christianity

Wrong. I don't want to find fault to anyone. I merely want to not suffer. If, after years of prayer, God has not offered me the help I asked Him for, then it is not me who finds fault with Him. The fault is there, crystal clear.

And, by the way, there are no innocent. All are guilty. All Christians are guilty. But, all Christians have their sins paid for. All Christians will spend eternity with Christ and God in heaven. And that is what really bothers you. We are just like you, but forgiven. We are just like you, yet we believe.

You state that like it's a bad thing. I don't think being upset because of the existence of a system in which people are told to do something that is not within their willpower, without being taught how to do it, and those who are unable to do it are punished for eternity for not knowing how to do it. Such a system is absurd and awful and it is rational to despise it.

 

[Lamb]

@Lees and @Albion I think we should have patience with Lucian instead of condemning him here.

 

[Messy]

If God made all the rules and set up the entire system to work this way, while being perfectly able to make it work in other ways that didn't involve suffering and sacrifice, please tell me why I must be grateful for being saved. If we can distinguish clear patterns of what psychology labels manipulative behavior in God's actions, why would I disregard these patterns?

Nowhere in the Old Testament does God require anyone to be perfect. He requires them to obey certain rules to the best of their abilities. The idea of humans needing to be perfect is introduced in the New Testament. It is an absurd requirement, considering that we live in imperfect bodies, in imperfect conditions and with too little information about our existence.

Other people have tried this (Romans 6) and it didn't work for them. Let me guess: you don't know why?


How can sins be in a body? Are sins not actions? Are they objects? Are they made of matter or energy or particles of some sort? How can sins be placed in a body that didn't commit them?
Whose inclination to sin is gone after Jesus' resurrection? We can obviously see that it's not the inclination to sin of those who believe in Him because there are numerous Christians who are still addicted to sin despite praying everyday to be delivered.

I have, as have thousands of other Christians who prayed everyday for years, only to not receive any revelation and end up losing their faith.

While being perfectly able to: really? Why don't you become God and show Him how to do it better? You just made that up. You don't know God.
That was not possible. Free will means people can sin and that causes suffering. If you want a world without suffering God could have only made pets.
1 thing is certain. God is good and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts.
If you see God you don't care about why anymore. And an evil or half good half evil god cannot create something good.

We become perfect, like Him in the end with a new body.

I know why. You can't try to believe something for a while and then give up. Then you don't believe it. Why did Peter sink? He tried to walk. He started to doubt. Or they were not really sorry, cause for almost everyone is it very easy to say no to going to the hookers or to cocaine, but then when it's a porn movie or pot or a cigarette we think ah that's not that bad. You can't repent if you don't really hate the sin. And it's a process to grow up spiritually and become strong and overcome sin and satan.

The text just says it, so that's why I suppose it's meant literal. A lot don't. Just like: the soul of the flesh is in the blood. The Bible says it, so I believe it. And that also has to do with it. Jesus gave up His human nature, His own will and we are saved because of His blood and because He rose. How exactly? 5 kilo brains is not enough to understand that. By the way I did see some scientist say that the brain is bound to sin, so that shows the fall. When you sin the body changes and when for instance you smoke you make those receptors in your brain, so sinning also changes the body.

 

[Albion]

@Lees and @Albion I think we should have patience with Lucian instead of condemning him here.

If that is your wish, then yes.

Yet, it's a Christian forum, not a "Denounce Christianity" forum. And also, there's hardly been anything other than patience extended to him for literally years now, all of which succeeded in changing his routine not one bit.

Nevertheless, my feeling is that once the matter was confronted at long last, there's not much more to add anyway.

 

[Messy]

Belief is not volitional. As someone who believes, you should know this better than anyone. Unless you are able to change your religious beliefs at will from one minute to another and become a convinced Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist through sheer willpower, you have absolutely no reason to claim that beliefs are volitional. If one is not convinced by the arguments presented to them regarding a certain piece of information, one cannot choose to believe said piece of information.


Wrong. I don't want to find fault to anyone. I merely want to not suffer. If, after years of prayer, God has not offered me the help I asked Him for, then it is not me who finds fault with Him. The fault is there, crystal clear.


You state that like it's a bad thing. I don't think being upset because of the existence of a system in which people are told to do something that is not within their willpower, without being taught how to do it, and those who are unable to do it are punished for eternity for not knowing how to do it. Such a system is absurd and awful and it is rational to despise it.

But you can chose to humble yourself before God and not think you know better than Him.

Jesus carried all your pain and sickness. It's not His fault. He wants to heal everyone and He wants everyone saved. Blame the church, that they didn't heal you when you were 3 and had faith enough, but I bet they didn't know better. For ages it is preached that God gives diseases, although that's unbiblical and Jesus healed those oppressed by the devil.

All these ex christians nowadays are proud. They just say God is evil and they are better and thus He doesn't exist. God resists the proud.
I bet you have never seen or encountered a demon. Then it is very easy to see who is bad and Who is good.

 

[Lees]

Belief is not volitional. As someone who believes, you should know this better than anyone. Unless you are able to change your religious beliefs at will from one minute to another and become a convinced Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist through sheer willpower, you have absolutely no reason to claim that beliefs are volitional. If one is not convinced by the arguments presented to them regarding a certain piece of information, one cannot choose to believe said piece of information.


Your definition of "Christian". According to your definition of Christian, George MacDonald, the famous Christian theologian who was also a preacher, wasn't a Christian either because he rejected the doctrine of penal substitution. He didn't believe that God punished Jesus instead of us.


Wrong. I don't want to find fault to anyone. I merely want to not suffer. If, after years of prayer, God has not offered me the help I asked Him for, then it is not me who finds fault with Him. The fault is there, crystal clear.


You state that like it's a bad thing. I don't think being upset because of the existence of a system in which people are told to do something that is not within their willpower, without being taught how to do it, and those who are unable to do it are punished for eternity for not knowing how to do it. Such a system is absurd and awful and it is rational to despise it.

I didn't say belief was volitional. I said you don't understand because you don't believe.

Well, you are correct in your application of my definition of 'Christian' and how it goes against George MacDonald's. In other words, George didn't need a Saviour. And so George didn't get One.

No, you want to find fault with God, Christ, and Christianity. If you don't believe then why are you worried about suffering. You just make up the story as it grows. ' Poor you. You're scared of suffering. But you don't believe any of it anyway. But God just won't help you. What a mean God. It must be His fault, not yours.' (sarcasm).

I say it knowing you despise it. For God in His infinite wisdom has provided a salvation for His people that cannot be imitated. Ever hear the accusation of some concerning 'easy believism'. That is false. Belief is not easy. It is impossible unless God given. Oh yes, many can say they believe but they don't. Many can fool other believers, but they don't fool God. They don't believe.

My point is I expect your despising God for the salvation He has provided. It is fool proof and very revealing. And don't worry, those punished forever will be shown just what/who they really are.

Lees

 

[Lamb]

If that is your wish, then yes.

Yet, it's a Christian forum, not a "Denounce Christianity" forum. And also, there's hardly been anything other than patience extended to him for literally years now, all of which succeeded in changing his routine not one bit.

Nevertheless, my feeling is that once the matter was confronted at long last, there's not much more to add anyway.

Yet, he's here and he needs Jesus.

 

[Messy]

I didn't say belief was volitional. I said you don't understand because you don't believe.

Well, you are correct in your application of my definition of 'Christian' and how it goes against George MacDonald's. In other words, George didn't need a Saviour. And so George didn't get One.

No, you want to find fault with God, Christ, and Christianity. If you don't believe then why are you worried about suffering. You just make up the story as it grows. ' Poor you. You're scared of suffering. But you don't believe any of it anyway. But God just won't help you. What a mean God. It must be His fault, not yours.' (sarcasm).

I say it knowing you despise it. For God in His infinite wisdom has provided a salvation for His people that cannot be imitated. Ever hear the accusation of some concerning 'easy believism'. That is false. Belief is not easy. It is impossible unless God given. Oh yes, many can say they believe but they don't. Many can fool other believers, but they don't fool God. They don't believe.

My point is I expect your despising God for the salvation He has provided. It is fool proof and very revealing. And don't worry, those punished forever will be shown just what/who they really are.

Lees

He didn't get healed. I got mad too when God didn't answer my prayers to give me my kids back. Evil monster judge just gave my 3 month old baby to my ex and God did nothing. I did not understand why. I reckoned He didn't exist after all. But I was living in sin, so He couldn't help me. I only understood that later. And Lucian is wrong to blame God, but the church let him down. The church is supposed to heal the sick in His Name. Sickness is totally needless suffering which God does not want.

 

[Albion]

Yet, he's here and he needs Jesus.

A number of members of CH have been willing and eager to help out and have suggested various ways he could approach the matter as well as give direct answers to his questions about the Bible, etc. All of these result in responses that are abusive of both the members and the religion. I don't know if that was his plan from the start or not.

If pushing the "ignore" button now or declining to participate in discussion were chosen, I suppose doing that wouldn't amount to us being patient, so what exactly should be the course of action?

 

[Lees]

He didn't get healed. I got mad too when God didn't answer my prayers to give me my kids back. Evil monster judge just gave my 3 month old baby to my ex and God did nothing. I did not understand why. I reckoned He didn't exist after all. But I was living in sin, so He couldn't help me. I only understood that later. And Lucian is wrong to blame God, but the church let him down. The church is supposed to heal the sick in His Name. Sickness is totally needless suffering which God does not want.

So what? He didn't get healed.

You act like God is just a 'credit card'. Flash it and there is healing.

Do you think if Lucian was 'healed' he would all of a sudden be a magnificent believer? Not hardly. He shows what he would be by his anger and hatred towards God for not healing him.

Jesus Christ healed a lot of folk while on earth. Do you think all of them became believers? Not hardly. They were just healed. Same with demon possession. Just because a demon is cast out doesn't mean the person is saved.

The Church has the authority to exercise healing within the Church through those who have the gift of healing. All in accordance with the will of God. It doesn't mean the Church goes on a travelling snake oil show to 'HEAL IN JESUS NAME'.

Any who believe that have let the Church down.

Lees

 

[Messy]

So what? He didn't get healed.

You act like God is just a 'credit card'. Flash it and there is healing.

Do you think if Lucian was 'healed' he would all of a sudden be a magnificent believer? Not hardly. He shows what he would be by his anger and hatred towards God for not healing him.

Jesus Christ healed a lot of folk while on earth. Do you think all of them became believers? Not hardly. They were just healed. Same with demon possession. Just because a demon is cast out doesn't mean the person is saved.

The Church has the authority to exercise healing within the Church through those who have the gift of healing. All in accordance with the will of God. It doesn't mean the Church goes on a travelling snake oil show to 'HEAL IN JESUS NAME'.

Any who believe that have let the Church down.

Lees

You don't need a snake oil show, but I would get mad if I was in pain and believed it was God's will and He gave it to me. The Heidelberg cathechism literally says that God gives sickness. I can imagine that someone gets mad. I get mad about minor pain, but I know that God always wants to heal, so I don't blame God, but I get mad at a sickness demon and rebuke the pain.
The church often teaches that God can do everything and may not be questioned, so it's logical that people then think: oh He can do it, but He doesn't. Then He's unwilling. He's not unwilling. When I had a faith crisis I didn't get mad at God, because in my church it was always taught that God can't just do what He wants and it's always whoever's fault, but never God's fault and Jesus said to the man who asked Him if He wanted to heal him: I want it. Be made whole. He is not a respecter of persons. He always wants to heal. If it doesn't happen, it can be because of whatever reason, but never that God is unwilling, well except with Herod and the pharisees.

 

[Messy]

Calvinism Makes Atheists Of Men

I love John Piper. I love him because he truly does desire God and it shows in everything he does. However, I hate his Calvinistic theology. It took me a year to go through his book, Desiring Go…

curtiseschulz.wordpress.com

Almost every time I have heard an atheist argue against God by talking about His nature, they argue against a Calvinist understanding of God.

 

[Albion]

The Church has the authority to exercise healing within the Church through those who have the gift of healing. All in accordance with the will of God. It doesn't mean the Church goes on a travelling snake oil show to 'HEAL IN JESUS NAME'.

Many would say that there's not much difference between those two, however.





.

 

[Lees]

You don't need a snake oil show, but I would get mad if I was in pain and believed it was God's will and He gave it to me. The Heidelberg cathechism literally says that God gives sickness. I can imagine that someone gets mad. I get mad about minor pain, but I know that God always wants to heal, so I don't blame God, but I get mad at a sickness demon and rebuke the pain.
The church often teaches that God can do everything and may not be questioned, so it's logical that people then think: oh He can do it, but He doesn't. Then He's unwilling. He's not unwilling. When I had a faith crisis I didn't get mad at God, because in my church it was always taught that God can't just do what He wants and it's always whoever's fault, but never God's fault and Jesus said to the man who asked Him if He wanted to heal him: I want it. Be made whole. He is not a respecter of persons. He always wants to heal. If it doesn't happen, it can be because of whatever reason, but never that God is unwilling, well except with Herod and the pharisees.

Well, a snake oil show is all that is presented.

Well, go ahead and get mad. But, you're mad at God...just like Lucian is.

Why do you say God always wants to heal? Where do you get that idea?

God being a 'respecter of persons' has nothing to do with His will in healing anyone.

If it doesn't happen it is because it is God's will. You acknowledge that with your last exception.

Lees

 

[Lees]

Many would say that there's not much difference between those two, however.

Many say a lot of things. Go ahead and cower in 'many would say'. Keep yourself safe as you like to do.

Lees

 

[Lees]

@Messy

Does everyone get healed that you want to heal?

Why? Or, why not?

So, who do you blame when God doesn't heal someone you want healed?

Lees