PERFECT LOVE

[MennoSota]

Arsenios wrote:
Human actions determine human attainment of that Love of God...

No.
I fundamentally disagree on the interpretation you insist for your prooftexts. It is clear that you are trusting in your continual repentance to attain and maintain God's love for you. I would hate being in your shoes.

 

[Arsenios]

No.
It is clear that you are trusting in your continual repentance
to attain and maintain God's love for you.

Attaining the Gift is not earning it...
We are but unworthy servants...

We live in antimonies...
That is why the Way is obstructed and narrow and hard to find...
The cost of discipleship is all of one's life...
And it earns you nothing...

But God gives the Gift of Salvation...
To those who give their lives to Him...
For our lives are worth nothing...
And we receive the Kingdom of Heaven...

Which is everything...
For nothing...
The greatest DEAL...
In human history...

I say!


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Attaining the Gift is not earning it...

It is by your teaching.

But God gives the Gift of Salvation...
To those who give their lives to Him...

...and thus you teach earning your salvation by virtue of merit.

You have no grace available. According to you, you must earn it by a life well lived or God won't grant you salvation. Your use of the word "grace" is merely a fable in your teachings.

 

[Arsenios]

According to you,
you must earn it by a life well lived or God won't grant you salvation.
Your use of the word "grace" is merely a fable in your teachings.

That is your interpretation...

We cannot HOLD the Grace God gives...
Discipleship is preparation for the Gift...
Give Grace to the Unrepentant...
And it will soon depart from him or her:

Mat 13:3-9
Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Discipling is preparing the ground to receive the Seed of the Sower...

Very Biblical, don't you agree?

It is why John came baptizing Repentance...

To PREPARE the Way of the Lord!


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

That is your interpretation...

We cannot HOLD the Grace God gives...
Discipleship is preparation for the Gift...
Give Grace to the Unrepentant...
And it will soon depart from him or her:

Mat 13:3-9
Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Discipling is preparing the ground to receive the Seed of the Sower...

Very Biblical, don't you agree?

It is why John came baptizing Repentance...

To PREPARE the Way of the Lord!


Arsenios

I suggest you do not have ears to hear.
There is no need to hold what God gives. God gives out of His Sovereign choice with no strings attached.
Discipling is a part of God's sanctification of the elect.
The elect are assured that the seed is in fertile ground. It is the non-elect who are busy struggling to try survive by their own self-righteousness.
It seems you cannot believe what God promises his sheep.
John 10:25-30
Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

 

[Arsenios]

I suggest you do not have ears to hear.

Back at ya!

There is no need to hold what God gives.

Eat - Drink - Be Merry!!!

God gives out of His Sovereign choice with no strings attached.

He taught the COST of Discipleship...

Discipling is a part of God's sanctification of the elect.

Then why are the Apostles commissioned to disciple the nations?

The elect are assured that the seed is in fertile ground.

Where did you find THAT in the Bible?

It is the non-elect who are busy struggling to try survive by their own self-righteousness.

Does anyone know who is and who is not one of the elect?

It seems you cannot believe what God promises his sheep.

His sheep are those who obey Christ...

John 10:25-30
Jesus answered them,
“I told you, and you do not believe.
The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me,
but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep."

Christ's sheep are those who were baptized into repentance by John who Baptized Christ...
The non-believers did not repent nor did they receive John's baptism...
They did not produce fruit worthy of repentance...
Had they done so, they would have believed...

Faith and works do not separate as you preach they do...
The did not obey the Gospel...
They did not deny themselves...
They did not take up their cross...

They were not willing to do so, you see...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Back at ya!



Eat - Drink - Be Merry!!!



He taught the COST of Discipleship...



Then why are the Apostles commissioned to disciple the nations?



Where did you find THAT in the Bible?



Does anyone know who is and who is not one of the elect?



His sheep are those who obey Christ...

John 10:25-30
Jesus answered them,
“I told you, and you do not believe.
The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me,
but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep."

Christ's sheep are those who were baptized into repentance by John who Baptized Christ...
The non-believers did not repent nor did they receive John's baptism...
They did not produce fruit worthy of repentance...
Had they done so, they would have believed...

Faith and works do not separate as you preach they do...


Arsenios

I quoted John 10 for you. Read John 17 as well.
You are outright wrong and misunderstanding scripture when you teach:
"Christ's sheep are those who were baptized into repentance by John who Baptized Christ..."
It is this specific false teaching that condemns you as one who does not know God's grace.

 

[Arsenios]

My sheep hear my voice,
and I know them,
and they follow me.
I give them eternal life,
and they will never perish,
and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all,
and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
I and the Father are one.”

Notice He does not say: "They cannot take themselves out of My Hand..."


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

You are outright wrong and misunderstanding scripture when you teach:
"Christ's sheep are those who were baptized into repentance by John who Baptized Christ..."
It is this specific false teaching that condemns you as one who does not know God's grace.

Are you denying that Christ' Disciples were first disciples of John?


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Notice He does not say: "They cannot take themselves out of My Hand..."


Arsenios

I give them eternal life,

and they will never perish,

and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

 

[MennoSota]

Are you denying that Christ' Disciples were first disciples of John?


Arsenios

I am saying you are a disciple of John the Baptist, not Jesus. You, like John's disciples, do not know the grace of God. You only know the repentance John the Baptist called for before Jesus came along.

 

[Arsenios]

I am saying you are a disciple of John the Baptist, not Jesus.
You, like John's disciples, do not know the grace of God.
You only know the repentance John the Baptist called for
before Jesus came along.

John the Baptist's disciples did not know the Grace of God???

Seriously???

For real???

Well then, my dear brother, I have a question for you:

How did they ARRIVE at the feet of John the Baptist?

Were they all DEMONIZED in order to come to him for the baptism of repentance??

How did Philip and Andrew KNOW to ask the Lord His Place of Abidance?

No Grace?? You DO remember the Lord's Answer, do you not?

And yes, one more:

Why does the very first Gospel of the New Testament BEGIN with John Baptizing in the Wilderness?

Repentance is the FIRST teaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the Bible...

Prepare the Way of the Lord!

Make straight His Path!


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

John the Baptist's disciples did not know the Grace of God???

Seriously???

For real???

Well then, my dear brother, I have a question for you:

How did they ARRIVE at the feet of John the Baptist?

Were they all DEMONIZED in order to come to him for the baptism of repentance??

How did Philip and Andrew KNOW to ask the Lord His Place of Abidance?

No Grace?? You DO remember the Lord's Answer, do you not?

And yes, one more:

Why does the very first Gospel of the New Testament BEGIN with John Baptizing in the Wilderness?

Repentance is the FIRST teaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the Bible...

Prepare the Way of the Lord!

Make straight His Path!


Arsenios

Not until they learned of Jesus.
Acts 19:1-7
And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.” And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying. There were about twelve men in all.

It wasn't until they knew about the Savior that they received God's gracious redemption.

Arsenios, as long as you require works for your salvation and to maintain your salvation, you will never know the grace of God. You will never be justified by God.

 

[Arsenios]

Not until they learned of Jesus.

God's Grace BROUGHT them to learn of Jesus...

What are you thinking??

Acts 19:1-7
And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.” And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying. There were about twelve men in all.

This is speaking not of Grace but of the Holy Spirit...

Lord have Mercy!


Arsenios

It wasn't until they knew about the Savior that they received God's gracious redemption.

Arsenios, as long as you require works for your salvation and to maintain your salvation, you will never know the grace of God. You will never be justified by God.

 

[MennoSota]

God's Grace BROUGHT them to learn of Jesus...

What are you thinking??

Acts 19:1-7
And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.” And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying. There were about twelve men in all.

This is speaking not of Grace but of the Holy Spirit...

Lord have Mercy!


Arsenios

They would never have known the Savior. They were disciples of John, not Jesus.
But God...
Made them alive with Christ and Paul then baptized them to symbolize their immersion with Christ.
It's right there.
Their repentance didn't save them, Arsenios.

 

[Arsenios]

They would never have known the Savior. They were disciples of John, not Jesus.

Re-read Acts 19:1-7, especially this:

“Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
And they said,
“No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

They believed in Christ, but had only been baptized into repentance by John...

This is about them receiving the Holy Spirit, Menno...

By being Baptized into Christ in order to receive the Holy Spirit by the Laying On of Hands by Paul...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Re-read Acts 19:1-7, especially this:

“Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
And they said,
“No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

They believed in Christ, but had only been baptized into repentance by John...

This is about them receiving the Holy Spirit, Menno...

By being Baptized into Christ in order to receive the Holy Spirit by the Laying On of Hands by Paul...


Arsenios

There is nothing in that passage that says they believed in Christ. They believed that John was a forerunner. They were looking for the Messiah. They we're learning about Jesus, but they had not yet been redeemed. We learn from Judas that one can be a disciple and not be redeemed or adopted. God must choose to redeem and adopt according to His Sovereign will, not according to the merits of men.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

I like to think of it as the doing of what is beneficial for another person...

What should we do if we are in a situation in which what is beneficial for another person is detrimental for a third person, yet it is not a sin? For example, if we have to choose between helping two people who are in equal danger and who ask for our help.

 

[Arsenios]

What should we do ... if we have to choose between helping two people who are in equal danger and who ask for our help.

The devil's alternative...

The Nazi version: "Which child will you choose to live and which to die?"

Just help as best you can and pray for all, including the Nazi...

And don't forget to thank God for showing you that your Home is not this fallen world...


Arsenios

 

[Pedrito]

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In Post #65, Mennosota offered (in context) John 10:27-29:
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

To which Arsenios replied in Post #68 replied:
Notice He does not say: "They cannot take themselves out of My Hand..."

That prompted MennoSota to respond in Post #70 [blank lines omitted]:
I give them eternal life,
and they will never perish,
and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Actually, Arsenios is correct.

The Greek word ἁρπάζω harpazo (translated “snatch”, “pluck”, etc.)** specifically means “to seize”, “to carry off by force”. It specifically refers to 3rd party (external) action. That has been pointed out before, elsewhere in CH. It is inappropriate to apply self-action to this verb. And I would suggest it is dishonest for anyone to do so, once that verifiable information has been seen by them (for instance, being read by someone right here, right now).

Let’s wait and see which carries more weight in some people’s minds in the future, regarding this matter – verifiable fact or doctrinal necessity.

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** Jesus wasn’t speaking in Greek. The Greek word ἁρπάζω harpazo corresponds to the Hebrew word גָּזַל gazal, which means “to tear away”, “to seize”, “to plunder”, “to tear off”, “to pull off”, “to rob”, “to take away by force” – meanings once again constrained to 3rd party action. Jesus was most likely speaking in Aramaic, a language closely related to Hebrew, that was adopted during the Babylonian exile. The English translation of the Aramaic word also says “seize”, therefore denoting 3rd party action in that language as well.

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