People starve to death in Kenya while fasting 'to meet Jesus'

[Albion]

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Someone from a well established denomination can also be wrong about things, but in general they miss out on a lot of craziness.
I was searching for a church. Oh hey that name (evangelical pastor with a big church) is familiar. I heard he's good. Lets listen to a preaching online. He says: God told me that ppl don't have victory over sin because they don't understand what happened on the cross. Yes. Okay. And then he says: So I decided I was gonna preach about it. Great. The law died on the cross. What? Never mind. Skip. Next. And he's not even bad. He just doesn't know either.

I was under the impression that we were discussing the pastor in one's own church home or ministers in general, not what precautions we ought to follow when a person is seeking a new church for himself and needs to compare the ministers, the worship service, and etc. of different congregations en route to making the choice.

But when I was not long saved I opened my mouth like a baby bird and trusted and believed everyone. Rodney Howard Browne, the Toronto blessing, went there a few times, Kenneth Copeland (seriously? How blind can you be? That laugh is evil), Kathryn Kuhlman, Todd Bentley even. We have a big evangelical church in Holland. They always invited preachers like that and because it's Holland, we get the ones that America spewed out. I once asked on christian forums in the charismatic part if they knew a name from a guy I had been to in that church. There were preachers there. One said: No that's a total fraud. We don't want him. That's why he goes to the Netherlands. He preached about going back in time, his son hit a rock and water came out and he caught a fish with sunglasses. It was the craziest ever, but the scary part: those ppl, the place was packed, they saw nothing wrong with it. Or Bill Johnson with his gravesucking. The other opposite is that it's not crazy, but dull. You don't even know what they preach, cause you fall asleep and they throw out the kid with the bath water and say God gives diseases. And even if you find a good normal church with a normal pastor, then yes you don't have to keep checking, but I do check automatically. Nobody's perfect. One guy said: this and that is in my Bible. The whole church looked puzzled. He said: It's in my Bible. Not in yours. I wrote it there. Funnypants. With evangelical churches you really have to watch out. Check what they believe. Nowadays some are from Kingdom Now. They are gonna rule on earth now literally. Else Jesus can't come back. And it all happened in 70 AD and the church replaced Israel.

 

[Messy]

He's right. I don't understand what happened on the cross. Why does God allow this confusion?

Our old man, the flesh nature, the evil inclination we got from Adam died with Him on the cross. It's just in Romans 6 and Galatians 2. I don't live anymore. Christ lives in me. This is what Thorben Sondergaard preaches. He kept reading Romans 6 and suddenly it dawned on him that he was free from the law of sin and death. He simply believed what the Bible says. He's not sinless, but he does have victory over sin. He doesn't have to keep doing the same sin, like an addiction.
It's just like what Corrie ten Boom said. She preached in Germany after the war and after the service a man came to her and asked her to forgive him. He had been an SS ward in the concentration camp she was in and where her sister died and he was one of the cruelest. She knew that God wants us to forgive, but she could not, so she said: I can't. God You do it. And then she stretched out her hand to shake the man's hand and God's love flew through her and she could forgive him. Not her old own self, but Christ in her.

 

[tango]

Okay, but that seems to me to be close to the same thing. Sound doctrine is important, and we all need to know what it is that we believe, but I can't see second-guessing or double checking (or however else we could word that) one's pastor every time he preaches on something in the Bible. At least not unless he's previously given you reason to think his beliefs are shaky.

Can you not listen without assuming every single thing you're told is 100% accurate? I don't need a specific reason to doubt my pastor to at least consider what he's saying - I certainly trust my pastor to not deliberately mislead me but that doesn't mean he can never be wrong about anything.

When the speaker is preaching on something that doesn't seem to have a lot of relevance to my life it makes little difference whether I agree with him 100% or disagree with him 100%. Those are the days I just figure maybe someone else needed to hear what he had to say. If I'm going to be considering the contents of a sermon in the context of making a decision that has an impact on my life I certainly want to make sure what I'm hearing is reliable.

 

[Albion]

Can you not listen without assuming every single thing you're told is 100% accurate?

What would make you think that is something I do?

The opposite of questioning everything said from the pulpit is NOT automatically accepting everything. And I thought I made clear that what I was addressing was a routine second-guessing of one's pastor on every reference made to Biblical teaching.

I don't need a specific reason to doubt my pastor to at least consider what he's saying - I certainly trust my pastor to not deliberately mislead me but that doesn't mean he can never be wrong about anything.

So....we are in agreement??

 

[tango]

What would make you think that is something I do?

That was intended as a generic you, not you as in Albion. Apologies if that wasn't clear.

The opposite of questioning everything said from the pulpit is NOT automatically accepting everything. And I thought I made clear that what I was addressing was a routine second-guessing of one's pastor on every reference made to Biblical teaching.

Perhaps we've been talking at cross purposes. I agree that there's a world of options between "believe everything" and "doubt everything". I don't see a problem with considering things in a range that looks something like "true", "probably true", "unsure", "probably false", "false" or similar. I trust my pastor such that if he says something (from the pulpit or if I'm talking to him in private) the things he says would fall into "probably true" as a default unless they specifically aligned with what I believed to be true or specifically clashed with something. If they got demoted past "unsure" into a belief they were probably false I'd ask him to elaborate, to make sure I hadn't misunderstood what he was saying and to test my beliefs in case he was right and I was wrong.

A guest speaker would probably take a slightly lower default starting point. A speaker I know to be suspect would default to "unsure" or "probably false".

Of course depending on the speaker and the subject matter it may all get filed under "don't know and don't care", which sounds callous and disinterested when put like that but some topics have such little bearing on my life it makes little difference what the person at the front might be saying.

So....we are in agreement??

Possibly more than we thought a few posts agi.

 

[Albion]

That was intended as a generic you, not you as in Albion.

Ah, yes, That does happen to all of us from time to time.

Possibly more than we thought a few posts agi.

More in agreement than it appeared a few posts ago, that is. I agree.

Thanks.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Our old man, the flesh nature, the evil inclination we got from Adam died with Him on the cross. It's just in Romans 6 and Galatians 2. I don't live anymore. Christ lives in me. This is what Thorben Sondergaard preaches. He kept reading Romans 6 and suddenly it dawned on him that he was free from the law of sin and death. He simply believed what the Bible says. He's not sinless, but he does have victory over sin. He doesn't have to keep doing the same sin, like an addiction.
It's just like what Corrie ten Boom said. She preached in Germany after the war and after the service a man came to her and asked her to forgive him. He had been an SS ward in the concentration camp she was in and where her sister died and he was one of the cruelest. She knew that God wants us to forgive, but she could not, so she said: I can't. God You do it. And then she stretched out her hand to shake the man's hand and God's love flew through her and she could forgive him. Not her old own self, but Christ in her.

I tried that. It didn't work. I told Jesus, "I give up, I can't do it, you take over my life from now.". Nothing improved. My propensity for sin didn't decrease. My health problems got worse.

 

[Messy]

I tried that. It didn't work. It told Jesus, "I give up, I can't do it, you take over my life from now.". Nothing improved. My propensity for sin didn't decrease. My health problems got worse.

Have you been baptized in the Spirit? It sounds to me that you need a good church, where you can receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit, they disciple you, help you and keep praying for you until you're healed.

Holy Spirit

Andrew Wommack Ministries' teaching article on The Holy Spirit.

www.awmi.net

This is from Andrew Wommack. My mom always watches him:

Here is a little of my personal story; it may help you. In 1957 I was born again at the age of eight. I loved God and served Him to a degree, but was basically powerless. I prayed six months for my Dad to be healed, but he died when I was only twelve years old. As a young man, I was introverted, timid, and so shy I couldn’t look people in the face when talking to them.

There wasn’t any difference between me and an unbeliever in terms of visible results. If I would have been arrested for being a Christian, there wouldn’t have been enough evidence to convict me.

Then, on March 23, 1968, I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. My life was transformed instantly. Before the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I was in fear; afterward, I was as bold as a lion (Prov. 28:1). My love for the Lord went through the roof. It wasn’t me living anymore, but Christ was living through me.

My life wasn’t perfect then and still isn’t now. But receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit opened up a whole new, dynamic relationship with the Lord. You would never have heard of me if I hadn’t received the second work of the Holy Spirit, which the Bible calls the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It’s my desire to see you experience that same power of the Holy Spirit and the gifts that come with it.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

It sounds to me that you need a good church, where you can receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit, they disciple you, help you and keep praying for you until you're healed.

It sounds to me like you keep making up excuses to explain away why your constant examples of miracles fail time and time again when I applied them to my life. If I find a church and that doesn't work out either, you're going to come up with another excuse about how it's not God's will or something like that.

If God wanted me to go to church, He would facilitate a way for me to do so. I've asked Him to do that numerous times. He has not done it.

 

[Lamb]

I tried that. It didn't work. I told Jesus, "I give up, I can't do it, you take over my life from now.". Nothing improved. My propensity for sin didn't decrease. My health problems got worse.

A friend of mine at church explains it in a way that can be similar to how an injury might heal. For some people, that can happen quickly, for others it can take a very long time. It's like when I had a broken bone and most people heal within 6-8 weeks but mine took 11 miserable weeks of healing. I was angry and frustrated.

My point is that we expect God to do things our way and in accordance to our timing and expectations. We don't let God be God and allow His timing to be the right one, which is not the way to go about it.

I hate it that you're suffering so much and I do pray for you every now and again. I don't know if God's plan is to heal you but I do know that He died for your sins. You might still be clinging to sin and it's good that you see that you'd like to decrease those sins! That means that the Holy Spirit is at work in you.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

A friend of mine at church explains it in a way that can be similar to how an injury might heal. For some people, that can happen quickly, for others it can take a very long time. It's like when I had a broken bone and most people heal within 6-8 weeks but mine took 11 miserable weeks of healing. I was angry and frustrated.

My point is that we expect God to do things our way and in accordance to our timing and expectations. We don't let God be God and allow His timing to be the right one, which is not the way to go about it.

What about when He doesn't do it at all? What about the ex-Christians who died atheists? What about Charles Templeton (Billy Graham's friend), who, after decades of being a Christian evangelist, lost his faith and remained an atheist till death, writing books against the Christian faith?

 

[Lamb]

What about when He doesn't do it at all? What about the ex-Christians who died atheists? What about Charles Templeton (Billy Graham's friend), who, after decades of being a Christian evangelist, lost his faith and remained an atheist till death, writing books against the Christian faith?

If man turns away from God, then he is judged based on his works...and apart from faith in God, works are not good. So then not believing means they damn themselves.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

If man turns away from God, then he is judged based on his works...and apart from faith in God, works are not good. So then not believing means they damn themselves.

But you said that God is the one doing the saving and that faith is a gift of God, not a human choice.

 

[Lamb]

But you said that God is the one doing the saving and that faith is a gift of God, not a human choice.

Yes, exactly. But man can reject God.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Yes, exactly. But man can reject God.

Wouldn't one have to be aware of the existence of a being before one rejects said being? If one lacks faith that said being exists, how can one reject it?

 

[Lamb]

Wouldn't one have to be aware of the existence of a being before one rejects said being? If one lacks faith that said being exists, how can one reject it?

We are born rejecting God unless His Word has already created faith in us, such as John the Baptist leaping for joy in his mother's womb, when Mary, who was pregnant with Jesus, came near.