Paul the religious zealot

user1234

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Ok folks, let's keep it civil. I've pulled a few posts pending review, let's not get personal here.

Thank you and I agree, disputes over doctrine needn't devolve into personal attacks, and I will own up to any I may have committed, even though unintentional. I welcome any constructional feedback that can help me improve my contributions here. God bless.
 

Brighten04

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I use the Bible as my plumb line for truth. IMHO if any of it is untrue, or a lie, then none of it can be trusted to be true.
 

Rens

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I use the Bible as my plumb line for truth. IMHO if any of it is untrue, or a lie, then none of it can be trusted to be true.

It all confirms each other. I had a time when I doubted if just some Nicean guys made a good decision. There's other books too. Then I read Thomas or something and a bit was good and some stuff isn't confirmed anywhere else or Enoch, hmmmm neh. Jesus was an angel or something. As if God isn't capable of giving us His Word and you have to doubt everything. The Holy Spirit shows it immediately that it's true or not with other texts.
 

MoreCoffee

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I use the Bible as my plumb line for truth. IMHO if any of it is untrue, or a lie, then none of it can be trusted to be true.

There are untrue statements in the bible, inaccurate statements too.
 

Rens

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There are untrue statements in the bible, inaccurate statements too.

I once saw a spelling mistake once in one Dutch Bible, they forgot a t.
 

user1234

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:shock::shock::shock::yikes::yikes::yikes:
I once saw a spelling mistake once in one Dutch Bible, they forgot a t.
The HORROR!!! Just awful! ... That's it ... I'm out!!!
The whole things nuthin but lies. A big scam. A conspiracy.
And which letter was it??!!
Shaped like a WHAT??!! Oh, I see!
Well, that just proves it right there!
How conveeenient. A t . Hmmph!
Left out the t for truth, no doubt!
Ok, phooey. Where's Peter? Let's go fishing!
..... :fish2: :crazy:
 

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Acts 15

And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question.

3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren. 4 And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them. 5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

The Jerusalem Council
6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ[a] we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. 13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

16 ‘After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the Lord who does all these things.’
18 “Known to God from eternity are all His works.
19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality,[d] from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

The Jerusalem Decree
22 Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas,[e] and Silas, leading men among the brethren.

23 They wrote this letter by them:

The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,

To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:

Greetings.

24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”[f] —to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.[g] If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

Farewell.


Regarding what I have bolded and made blue above.

If that is all that is required of Gentile believers - and it wasn't just a starting point - but the whole of morality for Gentile believers - then:

Nothing in there about lying
Stealing
Murder
Dishonoring Parents
Cursing Parents
Misusing God's name
Practicing Sorcery
Practicing Divination
Having as many wives as you want
Coveting


So if the Jerusalem decree is your religion, Christians - is that what you believe? All these things are permissible?

Or is this verse just used conveniently when it's needed to make people forget that there was a giant rift between Saul/Paul and the Disciples concerning the matter of the law and circumcision?
 
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Rens

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Regarding what I have bolded and made blue above.

If that is all that is required of Gentile believers - and it wasn't just a starting point - but the whole of morality for Gentile believers - then:

Nothing in there about lying
Stealing
Murder
Dishonoring Parents
Cursing Parents
Misusing God's name
Practicing Sorcery
Practicing Divination
Having as many wives as you want
Coveting


So if the Jerusalem decree is your religion, Christians - is that what you believe? All these things are permissible?

Or is this verse just used conveniently when it's needed to make people forget that there was a giant rift between Saul/Paul and the Disciples concerning the matter of the law and circumcision?

I don't think there was a giant rift. This was about the law of Moses, food laws and all that, not about the 10 commandments because that just stayed, the moral law, Paul said they were worse than an infidel if they didn't take care of family, he had a whole list of don't be deceived, such don't inherit the Kingdom, ban foolish talk and outbursts of anger and everything, it went even further.

Paul didn't say the law of God was abolished, only the rituals. Noone offered sheep anymore. It wasn't necessary anymore. It was a shadow.
I don't know if the other apostles kept food laws. I don't know, but it doesn't matter. They agreed, they had no problem with Paul. If Jewish converts wanted to eat kosher like they were used to, no problem. Paul said don't judge it if someone wants to do that or keep feasts or not.
They all agreed on God's law.
Just like you can't force gentiles to all of a sudden have Jewish customs when they're just saved and keep all the laws you can't force a Jewish believer who accepts Yeshua to say Jesus, eat pork and go to church on sunday. What does it matter? They were sent to the Jews, Paul was sent to the gentiles.
The middle wall of seperation was done away, all the rules that made Jews distinct from gentiles.

Romans 13

Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,”[a] “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Romans 7

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”[a] 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

1Timothy 1, Paul didn't say he was blameless to the moral law:

And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, 13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.
 
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Rens

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I like Paul. I think God chose him to talk to the gentiles because he used to be so bad himself.
What use is it to have some holy preacher living some perfect life when you don't and need help? If people can live good by themselves they like it and look down on the divorced preachers, but I rather have them than some super holy guy bragging about how he always stayed with his one wife and doesn't sin, look how good I am and there's no hope for you. They can't help you.
 

user1234

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I like Paul. I think God chose him to talk to the gentiles because he used to be so bad himself.
What use is it to have some holy preacher living some perfect life when you don't and need help? If people can live good by themselves they like it and look down on the divorced preachers, but I rather have them than some super holy guy bragging about how he always stayed with his one wife and doesn't sin, look how good I am and there's no hope for you. They can't help you.

Yep. I often read how Paul calls himself chief among sinners, and I think, yeah, maybe, until I came along.
And he had a Damascus Road experience, I'm still bumbling along on Desolation Row it seems sometimes.
But he's real, and I get so much inspiration from God's Word in Paul's letters, and I'm so thankful for the longsuffering and mercy He extends to me.
I should have been dead a thousand times over for the things I've done, both in and out of myself, but for some reason God spared me (His AMAZING love and grace...He truly is Awesome) , but even being saved, it sometimes has been such a rough ride, but then something from God's Word would come through, quite often through one of Pauls letters, or something from the gospels or Psalms, that would put things in a new light and help me carry on, when all else around me is trying to bring me down even further or toss me aside like I'm worthless. Jesus said they persecuted me they'll persecute you, and gosh, He and Paul are still getting it 2000 years later. I'm so grateful for their words to us today.
 

Stravinsk

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Yep. I often read how Paul calls himself chief among sinners, and I think, yeah, maybe, until I came along.
And he had a Damascus Road experience, I'm still bumbling along on Desolation Row it seems sometimes.
But he's real, and I get so much inspiration from God's Word in Paul's letters, and I'm so thankful for the longsuffering and mercy He extends to me.
I should have been dead a thousand times over for the things I've done, both in and out of myself, but for some reason God spared me (His AMAZING love and grace...He truly is Awesome) , but even being saved, it sometimes has been such a rough ride, but then something from God's Word would come through, quite often through one of Pauls letters, or something from the gospels or Psalms, that would put things in a new light and help me carry on, when all else around me is trying to bring me down even further or toss me aside like I'm worthless. Jesus said they persecuted me they'll persecute you, and gosh, He and Paul are still getting it 2000 years later. I'm so grateful for their words to us today.

Our Paul, who art in heaven, hollowed be thy name....
 

Stravinsk

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I don't think there was a giant rift.

You don't think that because you aren't taking an honest look. I've already pointed out quite a few examples in this very thread - all left unanswered by any Christians here.

This was about the law of Moses, food laws and all that, not about the 10 commandments because that just stayed, the moral law, Paul said they were worse than an infidel if they didn't take care of family, he had a whole list of don't be deceived, such don't inherit the Kingdom, ban foolish talk and outbursts of anger and everything, it went even further.

So when I question why Christians (as a group) don't follow part of the law, you bring up the Jerusalem Decree - as if THAT'S why - but then have to admit that it's incomplete for Christian life.


Paul didn't say the law of God was abolished, only the rituals. Noone offered sheep anymore. It wasn't necessary anymore. It was a shadow.


Yes he did. Ephesians 2:15. So you will argue that it's "ordinances", and not the 10 commandments. That might stand except the word "ordinances" in the Greek here only means "doctrine". If Saul/Paul was specific in referring to them, you might have a point - but he isn't.

These are also very anti-law: Galatians 3:10, Galatians 3:13 (Paul calls the Law a curse!!!), Galatians 3:23-24 (According to Paul, Faith in Christ replaces the law - not a word about "ordinances" here either), Romans 3:20 says the "for by the law is the knowledge of sin" - Is that so? Not in the sense he means it. If a man is married and has adulterous affairs, he is sinning whether he has heard the law "Do not commit adultery" or not. Once he hears the law against Adultery he becomes aware of his sin - but it is not the law itself which compelled him to do it, as Paul is suggesting.

I could go on...there are so many anti-law verses by Saul/Paul.

I don't know if the other apostles kept food laws. I don't know, but it doesn't matter. They agreed, they had no problem with Paul. If Jewish converts wanted to eat kosher like they were used to, no problem. Paul said don't judge it if someone wants to do that or keep feasts or not.
They all agreed on God's law.
Just like you can't force gentiles to all of a sudden have Jewish customs when they're just saved and keep all the laws you can't force a Jewish believer who accepts Yeshua to say Jesus, eat pork and go to church on sunday. What does it matter? They were sent to the Jews, Paul was sent to the gentiles.
The middle wall of seperation was done away, all the rules that made Jews distinct from gentiles.

To this day Christians and Jews do not agree on what is God's law. You keep repeating that the Apostles "had not problem with Paul" - and yet you ignore the very passages of Acts I have pointed out earlier in this thread.

Saul/Paul also has disdain for them in his letters. For example: 2 Corinthians 11:5-15 - what other Apostles, what other Churches? The ones the real Apostles set up.


Romans 13

Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,”[a] “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


Saul/Paul's sum of the commandments is missing the first one that Yeshua quoted as the most important:

Matthew 22:37

Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[fn]

This is the first and greatest commandment.

And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”



Paul's list also neglects Sabbath observance - which is one of the ten commandments.

What about seeking out spiritists?
Homosexuality?
Sex with a sister?

All things not included in "love thy neighbor as thyself". Are they all ok now because of Saul/Paul's list?

Romans 7

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”[a] 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.


This is an outright lie. I, personally, have never visited/consulted a medium or spiritist. I know the law prohibits it. Knowing this law does not compel me to seek out a medium or spiritist. I know the law "do not covet" - and simply knowing this law does not make me want to covet anything. The only thing it could possibly do is point out the desire IF IT HAD ALREADY BEEN THERE ALREADY, BEING PRACTICED ALREADY. But the law itself doesn't *initiate* or *produce* evil desires!


One would think - that if Saul/Paul is telling the truth here - then the person who takes this Psalm seriously:

Psalm 1:2 but whose delight is in the law of the LORD, and who meditates on his law day and night.

Would be filled with evil desires just by meditating on it!!! Score -1000 for the Romans 7:7-11 teaching of Saul/Paul.


1Timothy 1, Paul didn't say he was blameless to the moral law:

And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, 13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

Saul/Paul is lying again. He already said he was blameless in Philippians 3:5-6. But that is the nature of his writings. They can be used to say he was "chief sinner", but also that he was "as for righteousness based on the law, faultless." He contradicts himself so much it is easy to see why there is always so much disagreement and argument by Christians over what he said and meant.
 
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psalms 91

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We get it, you dont like Paul
 

Stravinsk

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We get it, you dont like Paul

Much like Yeshua didn't like him Revelation 2:2

Or warn of him: John 5:43
Matthew 7:15 (Benjamin is the tribe of the Ravenous wolf (Genesis 49:27) - same tribe Saul/Paul is from (Philippians 3:5)
Matthew 24:26 (where did Saul/Paul have his blinding light experience?)
 

user1234

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Part of snerfles post, as re-quoted in post #51:
But he's real, and I get so much inspiration from God's Word in Paul's letters, and I'm so thankful for the longsuffering and mercy He extends to me.
Stravinsk said:
Our Paul, who art in heaven, hollowed be thy name....
Naww, no need to go there, that's just a misunderstanding of my quote. The 'he's real' referred to Paul, yes, (note the lower case 'h' ) but the 'He' that extends His longsuffering and mercy is our God and Saviour, (capital 'H' ) our Father in heaven, and yes, His name is Hallowed, yes. Peace, friend.
 

Stravinsk

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http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Grace-Law
I don't want to start the discussion again, let's agree to disagree, but this is why I don't reject the writings from Paul and reading this I understand that some do.

The author of that article pigeon holes Non Pauline believers into one and only one stated reason - Paul's writings with regards to the law in his epistles.

Here are a few of my reasons:

1) Paul is the 13th Apostle - he is not handpicked by Yeshua (unless one believes his blinding light conversion story) - it was Mattias that replaced Judas Iscariot.
2) Paul's conversion story changes in subtle (but important) ways with each retelling.
3) Paul's conversion story contains wording and theme very similar to Euripides Bacche - written hundreds of years before Messiah's time - and in Greek - not Hebrew.
4) Some of Paul's writings contain text from other ancient (non biblical) works, but are presented as Scripture.
5) Paul takes various scriptures out of context and strings them together as if that is what they said in the Hebrew Scriptures. A great example of this is https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+3&version=NIV (look at the footnotes for all the Scriptures quoted by Saul/Paul as if they presented as a whole as he presents them.)
6) Saul/Paul has disdain for the real apostles (2 Corinthians 11 - full chapter)
7) His writings are full of his boasting and pride (boasting of his suffering, his revelations etc)
8) Paul's conversion story has no named witnesses (unless Luke was traveling with Paul instead of just being informed by Paul - in which there would be only one witness.)
9) Paul doesn't seem to know that the *women (not the disciples) were the first to encounter Yeshua at or near the empty tomb (1 Corinthians 15:3-8) - he completely omits them.
9a) In this same verse Paul doesn't seem to realize that at the time of first appearances there were not 12 disciples (1 Corinthians 15:5) - but only 11 - Judas Iscariot having killed himself.
10) Paul is a Pharisee - Jesus warned of the Pharisee
11) Paul's tribe is the tribe of Benjamin - which is the tribe of the ravenous wolf (Jesus warned of false apostles in sheep's clothing who were in reality ravenous wolves) (Matthew 7:15)
12) Paul's stated conversion takes place on a very wide road - the road to Damascus. Jesus said the road to destruction is wide.
13) In Paul's conversion story - he doesn't recognize the voice of Jesus after being blinded. He is told this information as a blind man.
14) That Jesus called the Pharisees and Teachers of the Law "blind guides" only underscores the irony of Saul/Paul's blinding light conversion story.
15) James speaks against Saul Paul in James Chapter 2, starting with verse 14 - the same story Paul uses in Romans 4 for his Faith alone doctrine - James uses the same story to rebuke him.
16) As stated earlier in this thread (which no one has responded to) - Paul willingly takes an oath to God in the temple to show James and company that he is not teaching what is clear that he is teaching.
17) In warning of false prophets - Jesus gives two examples of what to watch for A) the desert (this is the Greek, not "wilderness") and B) "secret chambers(storage chamber,inner room)" - Matthew 24:26. According to Saul's conversion story - Jesus speaks
to Paul in both of these places(desert, prison).

Not nearly an exhaustive list...
 
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