Original Sin

[Messy]

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[Lanman87]

That is the standard view of the matter that's taught by the Catholic Church and other major denominations. I'm surprised that the poll has seemingly left almost everyone scratching their heads over what to answer.

That's why I asked the question. Original sin means different things to different people. I think we all think "the fall of Adam" that brought sin into the world. However, we differ on the consequence of that original sin.

Some, maybe even most (if you include Catholics), will hold the Augustinian view that we not only have a desire for sin that is part of who we are as fallen humans, but that we are also all guilty of sin (and deserve hell) even before we commit an actual sin. This means infants and those who can't tell right from wrong are also guilty of sin, even before they get old enough to personally rebel against God.

Others, Methodist, Pentecostal, non-Reformed Baptist will hold that original sin makes us desire sin to the point we can't resist. Because we are in a fallen "flesh" we are slaves to sin and by following our natural desires we will all commit sin as soon as we are capable. But that we are not actually guilty of sin until we act on our sinful desires.

Among non-Catholic Christians in the United States the second view is the most common. There are more non-reformed Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal and non-denominational churches with the second view than there are Lutherans, Presbyterians, Anglicans, and Reformed Baptist who hold the first view.

 

[Albion]

That's why I asked the question. Original sin means different things to different people. I think we all think "the fall of Adam" that brought sin into the world. However, we differ on the consequence of that original sin.

Right.

Some, maybe even most (if you include Catholics), will hold the Augustinian view that we not only have a desire for sin that is part of who we are as fallen humans, but that we are also all guilty of sin (and deserve hell) even before we commit an actual sin.

Yes.

This means infants and those who can't tell right from wrong are also guilty of sin, even before they get old enough to personally rebel against God.

True.

Others, Methodist, Pentecostal, non-Reformed Baptist will hold that original sin makes us desire sin to the point we can't resist. Because we are in a fallen "flesh" we are slaves to sin and by following our natural desires we will all commit sin as soon as we are capable. But that we are not actually guilty of sin until we act on our sinful desires.

Among non-Catholic Christians in the United States the second view is the most common. There are more non-reformed Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal and non-denominational churches with the second view than there are Lutherans, Presbyterians, Anglicans, and Reformed Baptist who hold the first view.

I'm not certain that that's correct to say, but the impression given is that you're wanting a certain answer, separating the Protestants into two groups and also dismissing the Catholic teaching until option #2 on the poll prevails. And as we know, there are more Catholics than there are members of any of the other denominations you referred to.

I think then that I have to ask why DID you ask the question...in view of what you've written in your follow-up post?

If you just wanted a sampling of ideas held among the members, that would be one thing; but when I look at the question itself, I see "Original Sin means...?" That says the proper definition is the issue, and because it is, the theories held by any and all Christians would seem to have been solicited.

 

[Lanman87]

I think then that I have to ask why DID you ask the question...in view of what you've written in your follow-up post?

To see which camp the people on this forum fall into and to stimulate conversation. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about the topic. I just think this is a topic that is interesting. Different people have different definitions, largely based on which tradition they find themselves participating in.

I put the poll questions up in about 2 minutes after I had a conversation with someone about the topic. The three questions were based on what we discussed in that conversation. I didn't go through and look at every possible theory/belief to make sure I was being comprehensive in my questions. If there are other theories/beliefs then folks can expound on them all they want. IMHO-that is the main purpose of places like this. To learn and discuss and question.

 

[Albion]

To see which camp the people on this forum fall into and to stimulate conversation. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about the topic. I just think this is a topic that is interesting. Different people have different definitions, largely based on which tradition they find themselves participating in.

I put the poll questions up in about 2 minutes after I had a conversation with someone about the topic. The three questions were based on what we discussed in that conversation. I didn't go through and look at every possible theory/belief to make sure I was being comprehensive in my questions. If there are other theories/beliefs then folks can expound on them all they want. IMHO-that is the main purpose of places like this. To learn and discuss and question.

Thanks. It was, however, the follow-up to it--post, #22--that prompted my reply. In that one you seemed to shift the emphasis, and I thought that was worth a mention. Maybe it wasn't.

 

[SetFree]

What does original sin mean to you?

1 John 3:8
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
KJV

The real 'original sin' was done by Satan in the 1st world earth age, "the world that then was" according to Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 3.

Per the parable in Ezekiel 28, God revealed that He originally created Satan "perfect in thy ways" before iniquity was found in him. Per that Ezekiel 28 chapter, and the Isaiah 14 chapter, God showed that Lucifer coveted God's Throne and wanted to be The GOD.

Lucifer setup a kingdom over nations in that 1st world earth (angelic) age, per the parable of Ezekiel 31, and God ended that old world when Lucifer drew a third of the stars (angels) to earth in rebellion with him. That is when God assigned the power of death to Lucifer, and for this 2nd world. Before the rebellion there was no death nor sin, for in final once Satan is destroyed, death, hell, along with the wicked are also destroyed, there will be no more death nor sin.

At the ending of that 1st world earth age of Satan's rebellion was when GOD ordained this present 2nd world earth age, and to send His Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross in order to defeat death and the devil for us. It was also when GOD ordained His elect before the foundation of this 2nd world earth age of today.


If you don't yet understand all this, then it reveals just how far away from The Word of God your Bible teachers are.

 

[living name]

.
does not the scripture teach that by the sin of 'Âdâm and his wife Chavvâh brought death to the human race

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from 'Âdâm - , even over them that had not sinned

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned - , by one; { 'Âdâm }

this is the way the Bible describes the heredity traits in the human race originating from the fall of 'Âdâm

⇝ the very first mention of the term " original Sin " was written by Roman Catholic Father Augustine of Hippo ➣ 3rd century


the Roman Catholic theology demands that - original sin is the state of sin inherited by 'Âdâm and that it is passed down through DNA to all human beings as a consequence of 'Âdâm disobedience to God, furthermore the Catholic claims that the very nature of man is forever corrupted and has become literally forever separated from God with an ingrained tendency to be drawn towards sinful acts - ➣ unless one is baptised in Roman Catolicism this separation cannot be reconsiled


However, I do not find this to be what the scripture teaches to say that because of Adam we have inherited a tendency and attraction to be drawn into sin.

Eph 4:17 walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, - Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

the alienation from God and tendency to commit sin - is not a result of something that is passed down through genetic mutation and as a result of the DNA from Adams mistakes​

also

Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

the alienation from God - is a result of ignnorance and and wicked works and being blinded in their hearts and following after ones own lusts and desires.


the Bible does teach that " original sin " is the caustic effect that death and coprruption in our bodies that reigns over man
death reigned from 'Âdâm - , even over them that had not sinned

by one man's offence death reigned - , by 'Âdâm - 'Âdâm and his wife Chavvâh sinned and ate from the tree that brought death upon their bodies
this is the way the scripture explains the concept of the original sin, - not in making the claim that the sin of Adam has alienated and separated man from God - it is man himself that separates himself from God by wicked works and each their own actions.

all of the other added theology is simply the writings, scriblings, doodles and squiggle arts of early Roman Catholic Fathers pretending they have insight to add inspirational theology and tradition upon what is not presented in scriptural teaching
to the effect that even contradicts scripture itself. ​

 

[living name]

Adam brought death to all mankind by his sin, he had opportunity to live for an unknown thousands of years and possibly had eternal life in the garden connected to God, in union with God

Parts of Roman Catholicism's ideology is impregnated within nearly every element of the Christian world - with such doc-trends that demand
- that being born without a physical earthly father somehow makes someone created without sinful fleshly nature. The Roman Catholic teaching is a demanding presumption and theory that when the human father of Mary had sexual relations with Mary's mother the seed of her father was sperm / seed that was filtrated / filtered sperm - strained sperm- sifted sperm - purified sperm - cleaned sperm - purified sperm that had been sperm that was miraculously refined and treated seed from her father

but both Adam and Eve were born without the sex act, born without a human father nor even an earthly mother - yet this Immaculate Creation of Adam and Eve - this did not help them or prevent them from committing sin. This did nothing for them even though they were not born nor created from a sexual act. Adam and Eve even lived at a time where purity was at its most powerful and potent form and they both existed as the very best potential and perfect example possible, purity was at the strongest and most powerful and purest form that has ever existed for human kind

And still their decision and temptation and weakness to commit immoral acts, to sin, to defile their bodies and disobey God’s commandment was not prevented - by the state and the situation , the status , and circumstance and condition “ Immaculately Created “ they were not even born from human mother nor father nor created by any sexual relations -

“ Immaculate Creation “ did not prevent the draw and attraction and desire to commit sin. Just imagine the failures and temptations of thousands of their grandchildren living in the Garden. There would be no difference in the way sin and disobidence would be the same temptation and existing as it exists today. - the only difference is that they did not have corruption, disease, death and bodily immunity of weakness - they had authority over death

 

[Josiah]

@living name

While it's true that a few Catholic scholars and ECF theorized that sex has something to do with this... and while it's true that sometimes the term "inherited" is used in this discussion (as in the poll here), your imputation of "DNA" and sex are NOT a part of the doctrine of Original Sin - not in the Catholic Church or in any other community that holds to this.

Read the Catholic Catechism, Article 8 (1846-1876) and you'll find NOTHING about "DNA" or sex or inheritance. See the summery of original sin in 1870-1873.

See posts 6 and 8



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[living name]

Ooh sure

and i sincirely apologise if you felt I was trying to invent something false about what the Roman Church teaches .

However the concept of DNA and Procreation / sex - is the one and only way for any conception or theory of Original Sin to exist

if all Procreation and all emmitions of seed and all impregnations received were to suddenly ceace - the spread and continuance of Original Sin would also ceace. - as it is understood by the Roman Catholic

The Catholic Church clearly explains that Original Sin is passed down to children - the literal reality is that this can only translpire from father to child through the inseminating seed of the father


There would be no other method that the Church of Rome would also expect this to be deposited., outside of the concept of DNA and Sexually Procreations

 

[living name]

I earnestly would pray that this is more context than just a refference number

 

[Josiah]

However the concept of DNA and Procreation / sex - is the one and only way for any conception or theory of Original Sin to exist

I disagree.

And again, NO denomination or faith community known to me has your concept of DNA and sex as a part or aspect of the doctrine of Original Sin. So, no, it's not the "only way" but it never is presented in that way - at least doctrinally. As I documented, either 'DNA" or sex/reproduction are even mentioned in this context in the official documents of the Catholic Church or any other church known to me.

The concept of Original Sin is that sin is now a part of our fallen nature. It's unlikely it's a part of our DNA (so genetic engineering is probably of no use in salvation). And while each is sinful from conception, it's not the sex that causes it - it's simply apart of what "human" means in this fallen, broken, dysfunctional world. See posts 6 and 8.


.

 

[living name]

Hello Josiah


As you present yourdself as a defender of - - { "" no no's " } - meaning ultimatly
- no acknowledgement


and - preventing naughtiness..... - on your mind is a response to ONLY respond aginst
= naughtiness


and you seek to portray yourself as - defender of self proclaimed personal naughts

may I ask you to provide any other method or specific way that - - - Original Sin --- would be spread



you have no anwer ?

AS A MALE

YOU = AS A MALE - AND AS A SINNER , HOW COULD YOU PERSONALLY SPREAD ORIGINAL SIN -

OUTSIDE OF HAVING SEXUAL INTERECOURSE WITH A FERTILE WOMAN

Roman Catholics have no answer to this question that is very simple

 

[Josiah]

Hello Josiah


As you present yourdself as a defender of - - { "" no no's " } - meaning ultimatly
- no acknowledgement


and - preventing naughtiness..... - on your mind is a response to ONLY respond aginst
= naughtiness


and you seek to portray yourself as - defender of self proclaimed personal naughts

may I ask you to provide any other method or specific way that - - - Original Sin --- would be spread



you have no anwer ?

AS A MALE

YOU = AS A MALE - AND AS A SINNER , HOW COULD YOU PERSONALLY SPREAD ORIGINAL SIN -

OUTSIDE OF HAVING SEXUAL INTERECOURSE WITH A FERTILE WOMAN

Roman Catholics have no answer to this question that is very simple

@living name

1. It would be helpful is you don't use light colors.... I have no idea what is the content of your post; there MAY be many words invisible to me. Try simply using black - or at least dark colors if you wish to highlight a point.

2. Again, no denomination known to me so much as even so much as mentions "DNA" or "sex" or "reproduction" or "intercourse" in their doctrine of Original Sin. Never even mentioned. I have acknowledged that a few individuals have alluded to something of that sort in their own expressions of this, but that's how those very few individuals chose to frame it. It's not a part of the dogma. Since you insist that it does, it would be very helpful to QUOTE (verbatim, please) some official document that expressing formal doctrine... from the Catholic or Anglican or Orthodox or Reformed or Lutheran confessions. QUOTE it - documenting the key aspects in their expressions of "DNA" and "sex" and "reproduction" and "intercourse." You CLAIM this is done... but you've yet to document your claim. Or even tried to.

3. Original sin is a part of the nature the fallen humans. If a fallen human exists, he or she will have this in their nature. If a fallen human is cloned, he or she would have original sin (without intercourse). If one is artificially inseminated, he or she would have original sin (without intercourse)... it's a part of our fallen nature, it's not a result of sex. And there's NOTHING in Scripture or in the doctrine of any denomination known to me (or shown by you) that teaches that original sin is a gene in our DNA - so that God could have applied genetic engineering in lieu of giving us the Savior, forgiveness and salvation.

4. IF it's true that some person or institution or organization doesn't have an answer to a question does not make the question valid - much less any assumption behind it as true. You know that.


See posts 6 and 8.



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[Albion]

may I ask you to provide any other method or specific way that - - - Original Sin --- would be spread...

YOU = AS A MALE - AND AS A SINNER , HOW COULD YOU PERSONALLY SPREAD ORIGINAL SIN -

OUTSIDE OF HAVING SEXUAL INTERECOURSE WITH A FERTILE WOMAN

Roman Catholics have no answer to this question that is very simple

It isn't "spread." It's the condition of all humans who come into the world after Adam and Eve, just as mortality is part of being a human.

 

[Josiah]

It isn't "spread." It's the condition of all humans who come into the world after Adam and Eve, just as mortality is part of being a human.

.

 

[living name]

.

I apologize for any confusion. I want to show respect and consideration

I was hoping to receive a response from who would have read my post


The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: ” Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its " procreative " and unitive purposes” (CCC 2351).


condoms - birth control, and any means of avoiding or deviating away from the fertizilating the egg with the sperm while having intercourse - is unholy - sexual intercourse cannot be just for enjoyment with your wife or husband


Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its " procreation " fertilization , to furthering the DNA - GENETICS to be passed down through a conception ...

the facts

Roman Catholic Father - St. Augustine, demands that

Sexual desire a significant role in original sin's transmission, - sexual intercourse is the daughter of sin, is also the mother of sin ...

LUST - Lust becomes causally involved in the transmission of origina l sin ... Sexual lust thereby becomes not merely a symbol of carnal concupiscence, but its cause.​

this is basic foundation of all Catholic Teaching regarding sex and Original Sin




The Reaity is that the Catholic Church demands that because Jesus was not born with sexual intercourse by an earthly Father
he was completely free from Original sin - however, Roman Catholics have no scriptures for this Catholic deceptive faith


The Bible is very clear, that Jesus was made in the likeness of SINFUL FLESH and of the seed of David and Jesus was also a very part of the inheritted sin and ORIGINAL SIN


I do not want to confuse Roman Catholics , however the truth is that there is no confusuon

I have never stated that having sexual intercourse is the reason by which that ORIGINAL SIN exists or that original sin exists because of sexual intercourse

I hope my words will not be confused and twisted - - - - this was my point and what I was saying



I have been clear to explain that having sexual intercourse is the REASON that the ORIGINAL SIN continues to exist - becasue - as with each child that is conceived, - THE ORIGINAL SIN also is conceived and passed down.

DNA - GENETICS - CONCEPTION


I have been clear to explain that the curse of death is the result of how the genetics and DNA has been corrupted - the short life span, diseases, corruption in the body, sickness, weakness and eventually death.

the child born is born into DEATH, DECAY, CORRUPTION AND they each will die,, and death will come to the offspring. - The - DNA - GENETICS - ancestral hereditary traits are passed down from Adam and Eve.



Roman Catholics demand that this DNA - GENETICS - ancestral hereditary traits and sin was not passed down to Jesus expressly because Jesus was not sexually procreated - he had no earthly father - he was free of original sin


It is the Roman Catholic that believes that original sin is CAUSE AND EFFECT and by the literal sex act - by having a sexual interaction - a man and woman having romantic relations, this is what has literally CAUSED ALL WOMAN to be born with original sin - the sex act itself causes the sin - sex is sinful but tolerated by God

THIS IS WHY MARY'S VIRGINITY IS SO IMPORTANT TO ROMAN CATHOLICS

BECAUSE - Mary was PURE - HOLY , SEXUALLY PERFECT - - - Mary was gaurding her viginiity - abstaiing from having sex - Mary was rightesous a - Holy Virgin -

Virgin and a holy vessel unto God
a holy perpetual virginity that sets Mary apart from all other woman.
The Spouse / wife of the Holy Spirit

Holy Mother of God
Queen of Heaven
Queen conceived without original sin
Gate of Heaven
Mother of the Church
Mother of Divine Grace


Roman Catholics are not content just - to take the Biblical narrative that simply states that the only purpose of Mary being a virgin was to show that Jesus was born as the result of a Miracle - Behold a Virgin Shall Conceive.

perpetual virginity is a very part of what makes Mary everything that Roman Catholics believe about Marry

All other women whom were not born with and blessed with an " Immaculate Conception " the sexual conception of all other women born / conceived ; procreated by a sex act wherein God did not perform a miracle and alter and bless the sperm and egg and genetics and DNA Original Sin

the Roman Catholic believes that Jesus is FREE of Original sin because he was not born from sperm and egg conception with an earthly father

So much so - do Catholics beleive this

that they have invented and made - up the doctrine called " IMMACULATE CONCEPTION " this is in order to support the doctine of Jesus being free of original sin wherein and becasue Jesus was not born from " HUMAN SEXUALLY CONCEPTION "

Catholics focus upon Mary's sexual conception in the way Mary was sexually conceived -

the sexual unity of the father and mother of Mary, as she was being sexually conceived as God blessed the conception itself, God moved and acted on her conception

" IMMACULATE CONCEPTION " - the conception was perfect, flawless - impeccable - CLEAN - spotless - faultless - pure - taintless and unsoiled and unsullied

in the very sex act iteslf with the conception, God involved himself by performing a miracle to make the conception immaculate, perfect, - clean - spotless - faultless - pure - taintless and unsoiled and unsullied - free from the sin of sex

in other words - in the mind of the Roman Catholic

the unholinines - the corruption and staining and the dirtiness , the nastiness, corruption and unholiness of the conception of Mary was caused by the father and mother of Mary - partly because of their enjoyment and sexual gratifications.

in conclusion, from the scriptures themselves

there is no confusion or question about how Original Sin is passed down, and that Original Sin is not prevented by removing the human father in conception , but the Scriptures declare that Original Sin is in the DNA, GENETICS and blood and body of all born from Adam.

death, decay, sickness, infirmities, illness and the very fact that death was caused by Adam and his sin in the corruption of his own body - DNA is defiled

even Jesus was born in sin and made, created / born in the same likeness of sinful flesh - as the scriptures clearly declare


Respectfully and peacfully - Roman Catholics simply have no scriptures for the Roman Catholic Faith System.


Pro 5:18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth.
:19 Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love.



​

 

[living name]

Salvation, - furthermore, does not remove the effect of original sin - it is appointed unto all that all will face death.

Original sin the fall of Adam brought death into the world - the Original Sin of Adam and Eve was promise and a curse that God himself promised that if they commited that Original Sin they woud die.

baptism - savation - gifts of the holy spirit - signs and wonders - being born again

none of these things will remove the death curse and corruption in our MORTAL bodies caused by Orginal Sin

please join with me and come back to reality - I am not writing about imortality _ nor trying to address Catholic "" lurch "" theology : i'm still here with you on earth, where every body will remain under the curse of Original Sin until the ressurection. - this curse remains until we die.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

nothing that Mary acomplished - nothing that Jesus acomplished was to remove the curse of death pertaining to Original Sin from our mortal bodies.

Jesus died that we will be free of sin when we die and gives us all grace and power to resist sin while we yet live

but the whole Catholic therory of Purgatory competely holds on to the concept that even after we die - we still need heat, fire, flames, torment, punishment, blistering pain and agony to purge the sins that Jesus failed to remove

 

[Albion]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: ” Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its " procreative " and unitive purposes” (CCC 2351).


condoms - birth control, and any means of avoiding or deviating away from the fertizilating the egg with the sperm while having intercourse - is unholy - sexual intercourse cannot be just for enjoyment with your wife or husband


Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its " procreation " fertilization , to furthering the DNA - GENETICS to be passed down through a conception ...

the facts

Roman Catholic Father - St. Augustine, demands that

Sexual desire a significant role in original sin's transmission, - sexual intercourse is the daughter of sin, is also the mother of sin ...

LUST - Lust becomes causally involved in the transmission of origina l sin ... Sexual lust thereby becomes not merely a symbol of carnal concupiscence, but its cause.​

this is basic foundation of all Catholic Teaching regarding sex and Original Sin

How so? You gave us an excerpt from the Catechism that did NOT say this...and then you stated that something asserted by St. Augustine IS Roman Catholic doctrine.

The Reaity is that the Catholic Church demands that because Jesus was not born with sexual intercourse by an earthly Father
he was completely free from Original sin - however, Roman Catholics have no scriptures for this Catholic deceptive faith

On the contrary, the RCC and almost all other Christian churches believe that Jesus was sinless because God cannot know sin.

The Bible is very clear, that Jesus was made in the likeness of SINFUL FLESH and of the seed of David and Jesus was also a very part of the inheritted sin and ORIGINAL SIN

I'd be interested to have you cite a verse that does state that Jesus was a sinner.

I do not want to confuse Roman Catholics , however the truth is that there is no confusuon

I have never stated that having sexual intercourse is the reason by which that ORIGINAL SIN exists or that original sin exists because of sexual intercourse

I hope my words will not be confused and twisted - - - - this was my point and what I was saying

I have been clear to explain that having sexual intercourse is the REASON that the ORIGINAL SIN continues to exist - becasue - as with each child that is conceived, - THE ORIGINAL SIN also is conceived and passed down.

It's an interesting, if very unusual, theory you have concocted there, but I don't know of any significant branch of Christianity that agrees with it.

 

[Josiah]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: ” Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its " procreative " and unitive purposes” (CCC 2351).

@living name


Yup. But as you know, the Catechism of the Catholic Church does NOT state that original sin is because of intercourse or is found in our DNA. There is nothing in any official document of the RCC that states original sin is daddy's fault or found in our DNA.

Roman Catholic Father - St. Augustine, demands that Sexual desire a significant role in original sin's transmission, - sexual intercourse is the daughter of sin, is also the mother of sin ...​

1. Quote, please.

2. St. Augustine is not The Catholic Church. While he is held in esteem by most denominations, his views are not necessarily dogma in any of them. He was a man. He is not a church, certainly not The Catholic Church.

3. As I've been stating since post #8, there are INDIVIDUALS who have shared an OPINION that original sin is transmitted via sex and intercourse. You shared that personal OPINION, too. But obviously, as we all know, individual personal opinions are not church dogma.

4. See post 8.

The Reaity is that the Catholic Church demands that because Jesus was not born with sexual intercourse by an earthly Father he was completely free from Original sin - however, Roman Catholics have no scriptures for this Catholic deceptive faith

1. Please quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church or some other authorized official statement of doctrine that states this.

2. There is no dogma ANYWHERE, in ANY church (to my knowledge) as to WHY Jesus was/is without sin. Theories abound but NO doctrine. I personally like the theory of both Luther and Calvin who thought this is perhaps because of the "communication of attributes" between His two natures - but both offered that only as personal theory, not doctrine or even just accepted teaching (you'll find this is NO Confessions of either Lutheranism or Calvinism).

3. See post 8.

​

The Bible is very clear, that Jesus was made in the likeness of SINFUL FLESH

Quote where the Bible states that "Jesus is in the likeness of SINFUL flesh."

It is the Roman Catholic that believes that original sin is CAUSE AND EFFECT and by the literal sex act - by having a sexual interaction - a man and woman having romantic relations, this is what has literally CAUSED ALL WOMAN to be born with original sin - the sex act itself causes the sin - sex is sinful but tolerated by God

Quote where this is stated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church or some other official, authorized statement of doctrine of the Catholic Church .

Quote where it is stated that sex is sinful.... QUOTE the Catechism of The Catholic Church or some other official, authorized statement of doctrine in the Catholic Church where this is stated.

See posts 6 and 8.

All other women whom were not born with and blessed with an " Immaculate Conception " the sexual conception of all other women born / conceived ; procreated by a sex act wherein God did not perform a miracle and alter and bless the sperm and egg and genetics and DNA Original Sin

1. Yet Mary was born via sexual intercourse. She likely had DNA from both parents. So even if your relation of Catholic Marian Doctrine was true (and it's not), there goes your whole premise....

2. Mary's unique status regard to sin is generally considered as a result of Jesus having been in her, that She was the "Tabernacle of the Holy" - but this common view is NOT doctrine either, just current popular Catholic opinion.

the Roman Catholic believes that Jesus is FREE of Original sin because he was not born from sperm and egg conception with an earthly father

You keep stating this.... never ever substantiating this. Friend, just because YOU say it doesn't mean the CATHOLIC CHURCH states it; there is a difference between you and the RCC.

I'll ask again.... quote the Catholic Catechism or some other official, authorized statement of church doctrine specifically stating this. Your great hesitation to do so might suggest that you know the Catholic Church actually does not state this. You MAY have read some individual Catholic at some website sharing this opinion or read this at some anti-Catholic site but that does not mean that ergo this is doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Again, the doctrine (of nearly all churches) is that Jesus was and is sinless. There is NO dogma anywhere, in any church known to me, that has a dogma as to WHY this is so. You claim the Catholic Church has one but you won't quote where this is stated by that Church.

See posts 6 and 8.


For some reason, you seem to be equating the doctrine of original sin with the Catholic Church. While the Catholic Church does hold to this doctrine, it is by no means unique to that one church. It is found also in Anglicanism, Lutheranism, Reformed/Calvinism and elsewhere, in faith communities that do not teach the Immaculate Conception of Mary for example.


Blessings


Josiah


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