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Justification

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popsthebuilder

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I think that Martin Luther's doctrine - including his doctrine on justification as a covering in which the unrighteous are declared to be righteous solely because they believe even if they do not do good works pleasing to God - was condemned as heresy. I do not recall it being "apostasy". The council of Trent session six is available here https://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/TRENT6.HTM it calls some doctrine heresy but the word "apostate" is not used.
I appreciate it sir. But I'm not too keen on declaring those things or even thinking them, about any. I see the very first counsel dealing with Arius as...um....off, so I don't really put too much into them. I'm not saying it is right or wrong or that there isn't much truth in the creeds of the counsels.

i am glad that we agree on multiple levels seemingly; though some could use such as "ammo" I suppose.

peace

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Albion

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I think that Martin Luther's doctrine - including his doctrine on justification as a covering in which the unrighteous are declared to be righteous solely because they believe even if they do not do good works pleasing to God
Sometimes we have to wonder what the point is in discussing anything here, when the person has been informed but then turns right around and reiterates the falsehood that he started us out with.

Awhile ago that was MennoSota and baptism; now we have a different poster insisting that Protestants believe that Faith which doesn't produce works is still Faith which justifies, even after he has been set straight about that at least a dozen times and by a variety of members representing a number of different churches.
 

Albion

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Arsenios

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I think that God inspired James' letter and had it preserved and made canonical holy scripture partly to head off heresies arising out of misreading Paul's letters. Saint Peter warned in his letters that what saint Paul wrote was difficult to understand and some unstable people [meaning people whose faith was not well grounded and stable] read his letters and twisted what was said to the ruin of their souls.

What YOU said!

Arsenios
 

Albion

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Lutherans tried,and desired to enter into a theological debate with the Patriarch...

He offered to teach them the Faith that existed without change...

They preferred debate...

He said no - Write only for friendship...

That was it...

Here is a page about this exchange from both EO and Lutheran sources:

http://www.angelfire.com/ny4/djw/lutheran-orthodox.html

Arsenios

That was much later (and much too late).
 

Albion

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duplicate. Sorry, computer probs.
 

MennoSota

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The Spirit baptizes. Water is not necessary.
The Holy Spirit is not the baptiser is he? Jesus is, usually through an elder/priest sometimes through one of the faithful who is not an elder/priest or bishop.
 

MennoSota

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That's not the argument. The argument stems around the priesthood of believers who access God directly rather than kowtowing to the RC or OC clergy who didn't let the people hear God's word in their native tongue.
The OC and RC are very similar to Islam in that way. Muslims memorize the Quran in Arabic regardless of whether the understand Arabic. The people are kept in ignorance.
There is irony in the idea that printed bibles and Martin Luther's doctrine (with variations) was restoring a corrupted and maybe lost gospel.
 

MennoSota

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I think that Martin Luther's doctrine - including his doctrine on justification as a covering in which the unrighteous are declared to be righteous solely because they believe even if they do not do good works pleasing to God - was condemned as heresy. I do not recall it being "apostasy". The council of Trent session six is available here https://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/TRENT6.HTM it calls some doctrine heresy but the word "apostate" is not used.
LOL, the Council of Trent sealed Rome's apostasy. Rome has yet to repent of its sins.
 

MennoSota

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Sometimes we have to wonder what the point is in discussing anything here, when the person has been informed but then turns right around and reiterates the falsehood that he started us out with.

Awhile ago that was MennoSota and baptism; now we have a different poster insisting that Protestants believe that Faith which doesn't produce works is still Faith which justifies, even after he has been set straight about that at least a dozen times and by a variety of members representing a number of different churches.
LOL, "keep telling them a lie and they're sure to believe it." Isn't that the motto of the RC?
atpollard and I have laid out much scripture regarding baptism. Yet, you reject it in favor of your denominational dogma. It is what it is.
 

MoreCoffee

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Sometimes we have to wonder what the point is in discussing anything here, when the person has been informed but then turns right around and reiterates the falsehood that he started us out with.

Yes, that is a problem often encountered. For example, no matter how many times it is stated that Catholic teaching is that the faithful are saved by grace through faith their salvation being a gift from God and not the result of their own 'good' works or any of their own works of the law - by which a person might boast of his/her accomplishments and goodness as the reason for his/her salvation or as meritorious conduct for which God rewarded him/her with salvation - so that no one can rightly claim to have earned or merited by their own works the blessing of salvation; no matter how many times it is stated that Catholic Faith does not teach salvation by works and no matter how many times this is shown from the holy scriptures and from the documents of the Catholic Church there are some contributing to this thread who nevertheless insist that Catholics teach and believe in salvation by their own works or salvation earned by doing good works or salvation by doing works of the law. So, for some persons no amount of explanation and no amount of evidence will persuade them that their interlocutor is not teaching these errors.

Awhile ago that was MennoSota and baptism; now we have a different poster insisting that Protestants believe that Faith which doesn't produce works is still Faith which justifies, even after he has been set straight about that at least a dozen times and by a variety of members representing a number of different churches.

I think reading what a post says and what sources it drawn its information from is the only way to know what was said - as opposed to what a careless reader alleges it says. For example, in this case, it is stated that the teaching of the Council of Trent speaks of Martin Luther's doctrine as heresy. The Council of Trent explains why it is heresy and defines what is being called heresy. The Council of Trent's fathers did not know that this thread would be written or what doctrine(s) various Protestant contributors would propose on the matter of justification so no one can rightly expect the council of Trent to deal with the views advanced by people in CH in 2018 except where those views are identical to the views with which the Council of Trent dealt. But to make matters clear and to call attention to what has already been cited as the source for calling Martin Luther's doctrine heresy and the precise doctrine that the council of Trent called heresy I cite once again the relevant session of the council of Trent and add a quote of some sections from the session that deal with the matter of the heresy of Martin Luther's doctrine. There are other portions of the session that give additional information about Martin Luther's doctrine so no one ought to walk away from this post thinking that the two section that I quote is exhaustive of the material that Trent defined as erroneous and heretical in the teaching of Martin Luther and other persons in the 'reformation'.

CHAPTER VIII
HOW THE GRATUITOUS JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER BY FAITH IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD

But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely,[Rom. 3:24; 5:1] these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God [Heb. 11:6] and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the Apostle says, grace is no more grace.[Rom. 11:6]

CHAPTER IX
AGAINST THE VAIN CONFIDENCE OF HERETICS

But though it is necessary to believe that sins neither are remitted nor ever have been remitted except gratuitously by divine mercy for Christ's sake, yet it must not be said that sins are forgiven or have been forgiven to anyone who boasts of his confidence and certainty of the remission of his sins, resting on that alone, though among heretics and schismatics this vain and ungodly confidence may be and in our troubled times indeed is found and preached with untiring fury against the Catholic Church.

Moreover, it must not be maintained, that they who are truly justified must needs, without any doubt whatever, convince themselves that they are justified, and that no one is absolved from sins and justified except he that believes with certainty that he is absolved and justified, and that absolution and justification are effected by this faith alone, as if he who does not believe this, doubts the promises of God and the efficacy of the death and resurrection of Christ.

For as no pious person ought to doubt the mercy of God, the merit of Christ and the virtue and efficacy of the sacraments, so each one, when he considers himself and his own weakness and indisposition, may have fear and apprehension concerning his own grace, since no one can know with the certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God.​
The faithful ought to be circumspect about claiming absolute certainty of their own salvation for the reasons given in the above paragraphs and those who - during the years from 1521 AD to 1547 AD - taught absolute assurance of salvation on the basis of their faith completely independent of and apart from their deeds (good works or lack thereof) are rightly said to be in error and those who taught these things during the time mentioned above are called heretics.
 

Albion

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Yes, that is a problem often encountered. For example, no matter how many times it is stated that Catholic teaching....
I'm really not interested in any verbal shuckin' and jivin'. If you want actually to reply to my post and offer an explanation about why you constantly misrepresent the Protestant position on Faith even after it has been explained to you over and over again...then do that.
 

popsthebuilder

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Thanks for the insight.

It is reassuring to know that the rcc has not always been wholly evil; though I know that wasn't the actual point.

peace
Yes, that is a problem often encountered. For example, no matter how many times it is stated that Catholic teaching is that the faithful are saved by grace through faith their salvation being a gift from God and not the result of their own 'good' works or any of their own works of the law - by which a person might boast of his/her accomplishments and goodness as the reason for his/her salvation or as meritorious conduct for which God rewarded him/her with salvation - so that no one can rightly claim to have earned or merited by their own works the blessing of salvation; no matter how many times it is stated that Catholic Faith does not teach salvation by works and no matter how many times this is shown from the holy scriptures and from the documents of the Catholic Church there are some contributing to this thread who nevertheless insist that Catholics teach and believe in salvation by their own works or salvation earned by doing good works or salvation by doing works of the law. So, for some persons no amount of explanation and no amount of evidence will persuade them that their interlocutor is not teaching these errors.



I think reading what a post says and what sources it drawn its information from is the only way to know what was said - as opposed to what a careless reader alleges it says. For example, in this case, it is stated that the teaching of the Council of Trent speaks of Martin Luther's doctrine as heresy. The Council of Trent explains why it is heresy and defines what is being called heresy. The Council of Trent's fathers did not know that this thread would be written or what doctrine(s) various Protestant contributors would propose on the matter of justification so no one can rightly expect the council of Trent to deal with the views advanced by people in CH in 2018 except where those views are identical to the views with which the Council of Trent dealt. But to make matters clear and to call attention to what has already been cited as the source for calling Martin Luther's doctrine heresy and the precise doctrine that the council of Trent called heresy I cite once again the relevant session of the council of Trent and add a quote of some sections from the session that deal with the matter of the heresy of Martin Luther's doctrine. There are other portions of the session that give additional information about Martin Luther's doctrine so no one ought to walk away from this post thinking that the two section that I quote is exhaustive of the material that Trent defined as erroneous and heretical in the teaching of Martin Luther and other persons in the 'reformation'.

CHAPTER VIII
HOW THE GRATUITOUS JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER BY FAITH IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD

But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely,[Rom. 3:24; 5:1] these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God [Heb. 11:6] and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the Apostle says, grace is no more grace.[Rom. 11:6]

CHAPTER IX
AGAINST THE VAIN CONFIDENCE OF HERETICS

But though it is necessary to believe that sins neither are remitted nor ever have been remitted except gratuitously by divine mercy for Christ's sake, yet it must not be said that sins are forgiven or have been forgiven to anyone who boasts of his confidence and certainty of the remission of his sins, resting on that alone, though among heretics and schismatics this vain and ungodly confidence may be and in our troubled times indeed is found and preached with untiring fury against the Catholic Church.

Moreover, it must not be maintained, that they who are truly justified must needs, without any doubt whatever, convince themselves that they are justified, and that no one is absolved from sins and justified except he that believes with certainty that he is absolved and justified, and that absolution and justification are effected by this faith alone, as if he who does not believe this, doubts the promises of God and the efficacy of the death and resurrection of Christ.

For as no pious person ought to doubt the mercy of God, the merit of Christ and the virtue and efficacy of the sacraments, so each one, when he considers himself and his own weakness and indisposition, may have fear and apprehension concerning his own grace, since no one can know with the certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God.​
The faithful ought to be circumspect about claiming absolute certainty of their own salvation for the reasons given in the above paragraphs and those who - during the years from 1521 AD to 1547 AD - taught absolute assurance of salvation on the basis of their faith completely independent of and apart from their deeds (good works or lack thereof) are rightly said to be in error and those who taught these things during the time mentioned above are called heretics.

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MoreCoffee

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I'm really not interested in any verbal shuckin' and jivin'. If you want actually to reply to my post and offer an explanation about why you constantly misrepresent the Protestant position on Faith even after it has been explained to you over and over again...then do that.

There is no single protestant position. Let's hear MennoSota's position and see what it is.
 

MoreCoffee

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Thanks for the insight.

It is reassuring to know that the rcc has not always been wholly evil; though I know that wasn't the actual point.

peace

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I am fairly sure that the period following 1547 AD is the period that some Protestants identify as especially egregious for evil acts - both Catholic and Protestant groups went to war and slaughtered people who were not wicked.
 

Albion

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There is no single protestant position. Let's hear MennoSota's position and see what it is.

Having misrepresented all Protestants, you are hoping there might be one somewhere who marches to a different theological drummer. That's an interesting defense mechanism, all right.
 

Arsenios

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The Spirit baptizes.

I thought you believed in the Bible...

Where in the Bible does the Spirit Baptize?

Whom did Christ Commission to Baptize all the Nations?

Matt 28:19

Did Christ Command the Spirit to Baptize all the Nations?

Whom does John say will come after Him Who was before him?
Whom does John say will Baptize IN the Holy Spirit?
And HOW does this One DO so?

Matt 28:19

Two questions - Same Scripture Answer...

Arsenios

Arsenios
 

MoreCoffee

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I think that Martin Luther's doctrine - including his doctrine on justification as a covering in which the unrighteous are declared to be righteous solely because they believe even if they do not do good works pleasing to God - was condemned as heresy. I do not recall it being "apostasy". The council of Trent session six is available here https://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/TRENT6.HTM it calls some doctrine heresy but the word "apostate" is not used.

Having misrepresented all Protestants, you are hoping there might be one somewhere who marches to a different theological drummer. That's an interesting defense mechanism, all right.

Reading a post for what it says rather than misrepresenting it would improve what you wrote since I did not say "all protestants" I wrote "I think that Martin Luther's doctrine - including his doctrine on justification as a covering in which the unrighteous are declared to be righteous solely because they believe even if they do not do good works pleasing to God - was condemned as heresy" you are welcome to return to the quote that you used for the misrepresentation and retract your misrepresentation. God willing this misrepresentation can be set to rest.
 
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Albion

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How so?

Arsenios

Well, Arsenios, you wrote that "Lutherans tried,and desired to enter into a theological debate with the Patriarch...

He offered to teach them the Faith that existed without change...

They preferred debate..."

But that was more than a generation after the famous debates--at Leipzig, for instance--which were features of the early Reformation, when the RCC was challenged on its errors, when the EO were cited as being in step with the Apostolic church unlike the Vatican, etc.. By the late 1540s, the die was already cast, Luther excommunicated, the English Reformation secured, Calvins stand taken, and on and on
 
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