Justification

[MoreCoffee]

Well, may God bless your journey!

Mark 8:34 does not go away with your wonderful faith in Christ...

Arsenios

If it were all done for her, as sister Lamm claims, then what need is there for faith and what need for repentance. Her claim is that it is all finished independent of her faith and her repentance so those things (faith and repentance) are just symbols with no grace attached just like MennoSota's view of baptism.

 

[MoreCoffee]

MC, is that true that you believe that works do not justify you either in whole or in part?

It is true that I believe what the holy scriptures teach; namely that God gives life, breath, and all things by grace and that God having given those things calls all people everywhere to repent and believe the gospel. Repentance is a work and so too is living faith a work. Jesus said to the disciples that “The work God wants is this: that you believe in the One whom God has sent.” so works obviously play a role in making a man or a woman just.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Mark 8:34 in no way changes the fact that I'm covered in Christ's righteousness.

Say whatever you like but if you do not take up your cross and follow Jesus then what is said is just words and following Jesus needs more than words. James 1:22 Be doers of the word, and not just hearers, lest you deceive yourselves. 23 The hearer, who does not become a doer, is like that one, who looked at himself in the mirror; 24 he looked, and then promptly forgot what he was like. 25 But those who fi x their gaze on the perfect law of freedom, and hold onto it, not listening and then forgetting, but acting on it, will find blessing on their deeds.

 

[MennoSota]

God gives us faith. It is a free gift. Unmerited. Repentance is an effect that naturally happens when faith is given.
Neither are required of us before God chooses to adopt us. God's adoption of us is not dependent upon us having a good and righteous life. If that were so, God would adopt no one for no one could ever meet the righteousness that God requires.
This is all laid out in scripture. I am surprised that you and Arsenios have no understanding of this. God is very clear, as the scriptures shared make it known. You two seem to have a stumbling block laid before you that you cannot get around. This is something I will pray that God reveals to you so you will cease from stumbling. I'm sure others will join me as well.

If it were all done for her, as sister Lamm claims, then what need is there for faith and what need for repentance. Her claim is that it is all finished independent of her faith and her repentance so those things (faith and repentance) are just symbols with no grace attached just like MennoSota's view of baptism.

 

[MoreCoffee]

God gives us faith. It is a free gift. Unmerited.

Grace is given even to the disobedient because life and breath are God's gift given as a grace. In fact the rain and the sunshine that make it possible for foods to be grown are given by God's grace and the rain and sunshine fall on the just and the unjust alike. So yes you are right to say that grace is given by God and it is given without discrimination and it is unearned - I presume that 'unmerited' in your post is intended to mean unearned.

Repentance is an effect that naturally happens when faith is given.

No, repentance is not 'natural' in any sense it is a grace given by God. One cannot repent without God's gifts to enable repentance. This I think is part of the error in your theology; namely that your theology stubbornly remains attached to self-doing and self-empowerment in matters appertaining to God. The biblical teaching is that every part of life is given by God and is a gift that is not earned. It is in fact not possible to earn anything from God. The Lord Jesus Christ explained this principle when he said

Luke 17:7 Who among you would say to your servant, coming in from the fields after ploughing or tending sheep, ‘Go ahead and have your dinner’? 8 No, you tell him, ‘Prepare my dinner. Put on your apron, and wait on me while I eat and drink. You can eat and drink afterward.’ 9 Do you thank this servant for doing what you told him to do? 10 I don’t think so. And therefore, when you have done all that you have been told to do, you should say, ‘We are no more than servants; we have only done our duty.’”​

There is nothing you can give to God that God has not already given to you. This idea of earning grace is absurd. It appears to be part of the erroneous theology of the reformers, or if not from them then it is from you. in either case it is an absurdity and an error that cannot help but endanger the souls of those who follow it.

Neither are required of us before God chooses to adopt us. God's adoption of us is not dependent upon us having a good and righteous life. If that were so, God would adopt no one for no one could ever meet the righteousness that God requires.
This is all laid out in scripture. I am surprised that you and Arsenios have no understanding of this. God is very clear, as the scriptures shared make it known. You two seem to have a stumbling block laid before you that you cannot get around. This is something I will pray that God reveals to you so you will cease from stumbling. I'm sure others will join me as well.

 

[MennoSota]

Indeed, since grace is unmerited favor, you cannot get God's grace by being baptized. You cannot get God's grace by repenting. You cannot get God's grace by self-effacing and mutilation. You cannot get God's grace...unless He so chooses to grant it to you.
Yet, you and Arsenios demand works as the means by which God grants you His grace. Why do you demand such a thing? It has been shown that the good works of a Christian are caused by the faith given by God through his unmerited favor. It has been shown that good works apart from Christ are self-gratuitious and like filthy rags before God. Yet, you and Arsenios demand works as a means by which God grants you His grace. Why?

Grace is given even to the disobedient because life and breath are God's gift given as a grace. In fact the rain and the sunshine that make it possible for foods to be grown are given by God's grace and the rain and sunshine fall on the just and the unjust alike. So yes you are right to say that grace is given by God and it is given without discrimination and it is unearned - I presume that 'unmerited' in your post is intended to mean unearned.



No, repentance is not 'natural' in any sense it is a grace given by God. One cannot repent without God's gifts to enable repentance. This I think is part of the error in your theology; namely that your theology stubbornly remains attached to self-doing and self-empowerment in matters appertaining to God. The biblical teaching is that every part of life is given by God and is a gift that is not earned. It is in fact not possible to earn anything from God. The Lord Jesus Christ explained this principle when he said

Luke 17:7 Who among you would say to your servant, coming in from the fields after ploughing or tending sheep, ‘Go ahead and have your dinner’? 8 No, you tell him, ‘Prepare my dinner. Put on your apron, and wait on me while I eat and drink. You can eat and drink afterward.’ 9 Do you thank this servant for doing what you told him to do? 10 I don’t think so. And therefore, when you have done all that you have been told to do, you should say, ‘We are no more than servants; we have only done our duty.’”​

There is nothing you can give to God that God has not already given to you. This idea of earning grace is absurd. It appears to be part of the erroneous theology of the reformers, or if not from them then it is from you. in either case it is an absurdity and an error that cannot help but endanger the souls of those who follow it.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Indeed, since grace is unmerited favor, you cannot get God's grace by being baptized.

Your post is assuming that baptism is a human activity that is self-empowered and that's absurd. Your theology is so deeply flawed so seriously in error that you appear to think that baptism is not in itself a grace from God. But it is. Baptism is a gift from God by means of which he gives grace to his people. So contrary to you claim ("you cannot get God's grace by being baptized") baptism does in fact give grace. That is why saint Peter says that the faithful are saved by their baptism and it is why saint Paul says that being washed with the water that brings new life and regeneration is important and it is why the Lord Jesus Christ said "unless you are born of water and the Spirit you cannot enter the kingdom of God". God's revelation is against your theology. I advise abandoning your theology and repenting of it. Turn to the Lord and receive grace in baptism and repentance - that is the message of the gospel.

You cannot get God's grace by repenting. You cannot get God's grace by self-effacing and mutilation. You cannot get God's grace...unless He so chooses to grant it to you.
Yet, you and Arsenios demand works as the means by which God grants you His grace. Why do you demand such a thing? It has been shown that the good works of a Christian are caused by the faith given by God through his unmerited favor. It has been shown that good works apart from Christ are self-gratuitious and like filthy rags before God. Yet, you and Arsenios demand works as a means by which God grants you His grace. Why?

 

[popsthebuilder]

Works pleasing to GOD indeed do seem to be a product of faith; which of course; is given by GOD. So it seems like one actively doing what is contrary to the the scriptural description of pleasing works either in secret or open is not doing the works of GOD and whose love is not in GOD, but the world or products and aquisitions of the adversary/ opposer.

So what of of those who actually do works described in scripture as pleasing to GOD? what if they have yet to even be convinced of GOD?

(this is just for the sake of conversation)

(peace)

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[MennoSota]

The baptism (immersion) of us into Christ by the Spirit of God is not a human activity and is not self-empowered. But, that water sprinkling y'all do to the toddlers is entirely a human activity that is self-empowered and nowhere spoken of in scripture. Water is good for drinking, bathing and swimming, but it doesn't have any mystical soul saving supernatural power. That's entirely your mythology, MC.

Your post is assuming that baptism is a human activity that is self-empowered and that's absurd. Your theology is so deeply flawed so seriously in error that you appear to think that baptism is not in itself a grace from God. But it is. Baptism is a gift from God by means of which he gives grace to his people. So contrary to you claim ("you cannot get God's grace by being baptized") baptism does in fact give grace. That is why saint Peter says that the faithful are saved by their baptism and it is why saint Paul says that being washed with the water that brings new life and regeneration is important and it is why the Lord Jesus Christ said "unless you are born of water and the Spirit you cannot enter the kingdom of God". God's revelation is against your theology. I advise abandoning your theology and repenting of it. Turn to the Lord and receive grace in baptism and repentance - that is the message of the gospel.

I advise you read your Bible without your tainted church lenses on. You've been duped by some con men in pointy hats, MC.

 

[Lamb]

Albion, do you see that MC does believe works play a role in his salvation? That disagrees with holding to how Jesus' work on the cross is sufficient for our salvation as the scriptures state and as how the reformers brought in revelation.

There is nothing I can do to merit the salvation that Jesus already accomplished for me and that I believe only because God gives me faith by his grace to believe/trust. I'm clothed/covered in Christ and that is sufficient for God for my salvation. I cannot add to it at all. Thanks be to God that He is my Savior and I can rely on Him instead of myself.

 

[atpollard]

Yes, you did remember it incorrectly. That's okay. It is "righteous deeds" that are said to be "filthy rags" in the translation you've chosen.

Isaiah 64:5 All of us have become like the unclean; all our good deeds are like polluted garments; we have all withered like leaves, blown away by our iniquities.​

That was not quite an honest appraisal of the verse. Yes, it was deeds that were ‘filthy rags’, but “all of us have become like the unclean”. Is there such a great difference between being “unclean” and a “filthy rag”? Is the difference great enough to really claim that he was wrong?

 

[hedrick]

That was not quite an honest appraisal of the verse. Yes, it was deeds that were ‘filthy rags’, but “all of us have become like the unclean”. Is there such a great difference between being “unclean” and a “filthy rag”? Is the difference great enough to really claim that he was wrong?

That's not the major problem with the citation. From context, this was hyperbole to make a point. Look at the next verse. It's obvious that it wasn't really true that no one called on God, since the prophet clearly did. Quite likely others did as well.

 

[MoreCoffee]

That was not quite an honest appraisal of the verse. Yes, it was deeds that were ‘filthy rags’, but “all of us have become like the unclean”. Is there such a great difference between being “unclean” and a “filthy rag”? Is the difference great enough to really claim that he was wrong?

Yes. Yes, the difference is sufficient to say that he did remember the passage incorrectly. He was in error regarding what the passage says.

 

[Andrew]

That was not quite an honest appraisal of the verse. Yes, it was deeds that were ‘filthy rags’, but “all of us have become like the unclean”. Is there such a great difference between being “unclean” and a “filthy rag”? Is the difference great enough to really claim that he was wrong?

Revelation says that our robes will be washed white through the blood of the lamb, but Im sure Menno has an explanation on that

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[atpollard]

That's not the major problem with the citation. From context, this was hyperbole to make a point. Look at the next verse. It's obvious that it wasn't really true that no one called on God, since the prophet clearly did. Quite likely others did as well.

Possibly. That was why I raised no qualms about his conclusions. I only objected to attempting to split the hair that we are all “filthy rags” (when it is technically our works that are like filthy rags) and we are like “one unclean”. The difference between being a filthy rag and a leper is a distinction without a difference, so it did not deserve to be called a misquote, as it was not presented as a direct quote. It conveyed the essential meaning of the verse. (Whether the verse was taken out of context being a separate issue.)

[Lev 13:45-46 NASB] 45 "As for the leper who has the infection, his clothes shall be torn, and the hair of his head shall be uncovered, and he shall cover his mustache and cry, 'Unclean![H2931] Unclean!'[H2931] 46 "He shall remain unclean all the days during which he has the infection; he is unclean.[H2931] He shall live alone; his dwelling shall be outside the camp.
[Lev 14:40-41, 44-45 NASB] 40 then the priest shall order them to tear out the stones with the mark in them and throw them away at an unclean[H2931] place outside the city. 41 "He shall have the house scraped all around inside, and they shall dump the plaster that they scrape off at an unclean[H2931] place outside the city. ... 44 then the priest shall come in and make an inspection. If he sees that the mark has indeed spread in the house, it is a malignant mark in the house; it is unclean.[H2931] 45 "He shall therefore tear down the house, its stones, and its timbers, and all the plaster of the house, and he shall take them outside the city to an unclean[H2931] place.
[Num 5:2 NASB] 2 "Command the sons of Israel that they send away from the camp every leper and everyone having a discharge and everyone who is unclean[H2931] because of a dead person.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Possibly. That was why I raised no qualms about his conclusions. I only objected to attempting to split the hair that we are all “filthy rags” (when it is technically our works that are like filthy rags) and we are like “one unclean”. The difference between being a filthy rag and a leper is a distinction without a difference, so it did not deserve to be called a misquote, as it was not presented as a direct quote. It conveyed the essential meaning of the verse. (Whether the verse was taken out of context being a separate issue.)

[Lev 13:45-46 NASB] 45 "As for the leper who has the infection, his clothes shall be torn, and the hair of his head shall be uncovered, and he shall cover his mustache and cry, 'Unclean![H2931] Unclean!'[H2931] 46 "He shall remain unclean all the days during which he has the infection; he is unclean.[H2931] He shall live alone; his dwelling shall be outside the camp.
[Lev 14:40-41, 44-45 NASB] 40 then the priest shall order them to tear out the stones with the mark in them and throw them away at an unclean[H2931] place outside the city. 41 "He shall have the house scraped all around inside, and they shall dump the plaster that they scrape off at an unclean[H2931] place outside the city. ... 44 then the priest shall come in and make an inspection. If he sees that the mark has indeed spread in the house, it is a malignant mark in the house; it is unclean.[H2931] 45 "He shall therefore tear down the house, its stones, and its timbers, and all the plaster of the house, and he shall take them outside the city to an unclean[H2931] place.
[Num 5:2 NASB] 2 "Command the sons of Israel that they send away from the camp every leper and everyone having a discharge and everyone who is unclean[H2931] because of a dead person.

The passage in Isaiah is not about lepers it is about Israel repenting for their wickedness. So your attempt to make Isaiah's prayer into a story about lepers is misrepresenting what the prophet wrote.

Isaiah 64:1 As when fire sets brushwood ablaze and causes water to boil, make the nations know your name, and your enemies tremble. 2 Let them witness your stunning deeds. 3 No one has ever heard or perceived, no eye has ever seen a God besides you who works for those who trust in him. 4 You have confounded those who acted righteously and who joyfully kept your ways in mind. But you are angry with our sins, yet conceal them and we shall be saved. 5 All of us have become like the unclean; all our good deeds are like polluted garments; we have all withered like leaves, blown away by our iniquities. 6 There is no one who calls upon your name, no one who rouses himself to lay hold of you. For you have hidden your face, you have given us up to the power of our evil acts. 7 And yet, Yahweh, you are our Father; we are the clay and you are our potter; we are the work of your hand. 8 Do not let your anger go too far, O Yahweh, or think of our sins forever. See, we all are your people! 9 Your holy cities have become a wilderness, Zion has become a wasteland, Jerusalem a desolation. 10 Our holy and glorious house, where our ancestors used to pray to you, has been razed to the ground, and all that we treasure lies in ruins. 11 Can you still remain unmoved, O Yahweh, before all this? Will you punish us further with your silence?​

Isaiah is not writing about lepers. It's absurd to say that he was.

 

[Arsenios]

It is clear from scripture that Christians are justified by faith and that faith produces good works to the glory of God.
Without faith, the works that are done are all self-righteous and self-gratuitious. Faith, however, gives fuel to good works that glorify God and His righteousness.
Indeed...what does scripture say...

Anyone can quote a bunch of Scripture and the pronounce their interpretation of what it all means...

You need to learn to argue from and through Scripture...

And the problem even with this is that when Jesus was tempted by Satan after His 40 day fast in the wilderness just after His Baptism in the Jordan is that Satan USED SCRIPTURE to tempt him... Jesus used Scripture to answer the Scriptural temptation... Christ did not try to persuade satan with Scripture...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

[MENTION=486]Arsenios[/MENTION]




How is one ENTERED into that?

Baptism into Christ, as Scripture tells us...
And not a "Spiritual Event"...

What about NON-Christians, DEAD people, with no faith, no Holy Spirit....

God is the Judge of them as well, of the Living AND the DEAD... And many, many of these will be far, far ahead of me in the line of Salvation... IF I make it at all...

people who deny God exists and hold that Jesus is a silly myth and NOTHING more?

You are describing me for my first 36 years of life...

Does the Orthodox Church hold that ACTUALLY, all people are automatically Christians simply by virtue of having been conceived as a homo sapien?

One is not a Christian until one enters into Christ by Baptism, is Annointed, and eats the Flesh and drinks the Blood of our Lord...

- and thus Jesus is not ever the Savior (no need for such if everyone already is a Christian), and the ONLY issue is that person GROWING in that life? So that Jesus saves no one (since there's no one to save), so that ALL homo sapiens are Christians by viture of their DNA, but now Jesus and the Church HELP people become MORE so?

A silly question...

OR.... is there a spiritual BIRTH, a COMING into this relationship?

One is Called...
One is Justified...
One is Glorified...

The Spiritual Birth is Baptism and Chrismation/Annointing/Christing...
Baptism is done by the Apostles, the 11, remember?
Christ told them to baptize all the nations...

Why does Baptism matter if all everyone already has faith, life and justification? If all are ALREADY Christians? If NOTHING happens or beings there? If there is no beginning, no entry, no justification?

Why does the Bible record the Baptism of Cornelius into Christ? His prayers were before the Throne of the Most High, and he had the Holy Spirit of Pentecost, together with his party, and still the Bible has him being Baptized into Christ... For "As many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ..." The Holy Spirit obviously had not baptized Cornelius... But Peter sure did... He did not forbid them the Water...

John came Baptizing, proclaiming the Kingdom of Heaven - The Beginning of Christ's Ministry - Preaching repentance... Repentance unto that very Kingdom which is here and now open to us IF we are repenting...

How anyone can then say that the Holy Spirit baptizes when Ananias Baptized Saul filling him with the Holy Spirit, and Peter baptized Cornelius and his party, is strange... The Old Testament Saints were baptized by the Holy Spirit and did great Signs, and worked great miracles, and went to Hades when they died... Old Testament Salvation was BY the Holy Spirit... New Testament Salvation is BY Christ INTO Christ's Holy Body, the Ekklesia... He baptizes us with His Own Body, by the Servants IN His Own Body, by the members OF His Own Body... IF you are not baptized into Christ BY Christ by the Hands of Christ which ARE the hands of His Body, the Ellkesia, then you have not been baptized into Christ...

If you claim baptism by the Holy Spirit, you have Old Testament Salvation IF you are correct in your assessment of that "baptism"...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

[MENTION=486]

I realize you want to 'by-pass" the entire issue of this thread.... skip right over it.... placing ALL the emphasis (and permitting NOTHING OTHER) on the GROWTH of a Christian.

Gosh, I must have forgotten to mention for the 87th time: "We are Justified and Sanctified by Christ when Christ baptizes us into the Ekklesia, the Body of Christ, at the hands of the Servants of Christ in that Ekklesia... You will never see a more holy and more justified person than the one who has just been Baptized into Christ...

Keeping that purity to the end that was given to you there in Baptism is the struggle we enter within the Kingdom of God...

But frankly, brother, that's not the issue of this thread and that's NEVER been a point of much debate.... everyone is agreeing with you.

You are not agreeing with me...

But the issue here ... is BECOMING, the COMING of faith, life, justification.

Yes, the Call, entering into repentance, getting Baptized into Christ, and running the race to the end...

The issue of that ENTRY.

If an Orthodox Christian were to be so foolish as to think that a visitation with the Holy Spirit IS Baptism into Christ, we would certainly condemn such a teaching as well... If received, it destroys the possibility of Salvation in Christ... Christ incarnated that we should be baptized into His Body by His Servant-Members of His Body, the Ekklesia...

Thinking you are in that Body because you had a Spiritual experience utterly misses the mark...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Hebrews 10 shares the image of Jesus in the heavenly temple sprinkling his blood on us and making us clean.

Revelation says that our robes will be washed white through the blood of the lamb, but Im sure Menno has an explanation on that

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