Justification - Part 2

[Arsenios]

Wait, What!?

Did you turn on your hearing aid??

Calvinism is a denomination?

Of course it is -
It is denominated after Calvin...
It is named after the name of the man named Calvin...

Since when?

The Institutes maybe??

Arsenios, you don't know what you are talking about. Your dogma blinds you.

We do somehow manage to see things differently!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Peter was a broken denier of Messiah whom God chose anyway.
Paul was a terrorist murderer whom God chose anyway.

Well, He did call SINNERS to repentance...

You seem to say that He did not uttery TRANSFORM them into Sons of the Most High...

They were both as corrupt and evil as any other human.
In fact, Paul calls himself the chief of all sinners.

I do too, with all the Orthodox Christians, call myself chief among sinners...

Do you not also confess as Paul confesses?

Arsenios, you've created a delusional image of the Apostles that is never presented that way in scripture.
God used Peter and Paul as chosen vessels with unique roles. God uses all his adopted children as chosen vessels with unique roles. All of God's chosen and adopted children stand on equal ground as reprobate, corrupt sinners justified only by the blood of Jesus as atonement for our sins.[/quote]

Transformation is ongoing into eternity, my Brother... But some have mortified the Old Man more than others...

Rom 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh,
ye shall die:
but if ye through the Spirit
do mortify the deeds of the body,
ye shall live.

It is your choice, you see, within your power as God created you in His Image...

Col 3:5
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth;
fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence,
and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Both Peter and Paul called themselves chosen. Read the Bible. They both call themselves chosen. You are demonstrably wrong.

Christ said to Ananias that He had chosen Paul...
But Paul himself never said he was Chosen...
Nor did Peter...

Lucifer did, I believe, in his egotism...

MC knows what I am referring to with the Trump comment. I was directly addressing his prejudice.

Oh...

Cheep shots are normally not a good idea here...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Did you turn on your hearing aid??



Of course it is -
It is denominated after Calvin...
It is named after the name of the man named Calvin...



The Institutes maybe??



We do somehow manage to see things differently!

Arsenios

Not at all. John Calvin simply wrote his observation of scripture. Others have read scripture and come to the same observation. There's nothing denominational about it. Now, there are a good handful of denominations that point to John Calvin's observations and recognize that scripture guided Calvin's observation. They borrow his observations as a structural format to their own denomination.
Calvinism, however is no more a denomination than Pelagianism, in which you are solidly encamped.

 

[Arsenios]

We are Christs,
...I do disagree that we all have to come under the Catholic church in order to be His.

I agree with your disagreement...

But the Church is catholic...

It is fully present wherever it is found...

Any "part" IS the Whole Body of Christ...

Schism, which is division, is horrific...

Denominations are divisions...

Arsenios

 

[Albion]

Denominations are divisions...

Arsenios

We all belong to one or another of them, though.

 

[MennoSota]

Well, He did call SINNERS to repentance...

You seem to say that He did not uttery TRANSFORM them into Sons of the Most High...

I do to, with all the Orthodox Christians, call myself chief among sinners...

Do you not also confess as Paul confesses?

Transformation is ongoing into eternity, my Brother... But some have mortified the Old Man more than others...

Rom 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh,
ye shall die:
but if ye through the Spirit
do mortify the deeds of the body,
ye shall live.

It is your choice, you see, within your power as God created you in His Image...

Col 3:5
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth;
fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence,
and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Christ said to Ananias that He had chosen Paul...
But Paul himself never said he was Chosen...
Nor did Peter...

Lucifer did, I believe, in his egotism...

Oh...

Cheep shots are normally not a good idea here...

Arsenios

Arsenios, you are demonstrably wrong.
Colossians 1
[1]This letter is from Paul, chosen by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus, and from our brother Timothy.
*2 Timothy 1
[1]This letter is from Paul, chosen by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus. I have been sent out to tell others about the life he has promised through faith in Christ Jesus.
*Titus 1
[1]This letter is from Paul, a slave of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ. I have been sent to proclaim faith to those God has chosen and to teach them to know the truth that shows them how to live godly lives.
*1 Peter 1:1-2
[1]This letter is from Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ.I am writing to God’s chosen people who are living as foreigners in the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia.
[2]God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy. As a result, you have obeyed him and have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ.May God give you more and more grace and peace.
*Romans 8:16-18,29-30,33-35,37-39
[16]For his Spirit joins with our spirit to affirm that we are God’s children.
[17]And since we are his children, we are his heirs. In fact, together with Christ we are heirs of God’s glory. But if we are to share his glory, we must also share his suffering.
[18]Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will reveal to us later.
[29]For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
[30]And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.
[33]Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for his own? No one—for God himself has given us right standing with himself.
[34]Who then will condemn us? No one—for Christ Jesus died for us and was raised to life for us, and he is sitting in the place of honor at God’s right hand, pleading for us.
[35]Can anything ever separate us from Christ’s love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death?
[37]No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us.
[38]And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love.
[39]No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Arsenios]

This thread is not about denominations.

A discussion of church, congregation and denomination is here: http://christianityhaven.com/showth...omination-Faith-Community&p=135031#post135031

THIS discussion is about Justification.

Think of it as a side-bar...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

This is Faith:
Faith is the basis of deeds done for the sake of things hoped for...
It is proof of things not (yet) seen...

So when you insist that Repentance is a "good work"
then you insist that faith must be in place
as repentance happens.

It certainly CAN be...

But the implication is that one must HOPE for something, one must desire some outcome, and that one must in that desire THINK that certain DEEDS will ATTAIN that outcome... You regard this thinking as Faith... You think it is belief... You think it is faith... It is actually the thought that one's actions will have desired results...

Now when one believes the Bible, and believes in God, and is Called BY God TO the Faith of Christ, THEN one will, we hope, repent out of faith in the Gospel... God Bless that person!

But I am living proof that repentance from sin apart from faith is what God seeks in us... To turn from the elements of the world unto death (blood), indeed to be baptized INTO Death, into the Death of Christ on the Cross... To LOSE your worldly life that God should GIVE you Life Eternal, KNOWING the One True God and His Son, Jesus Christ...

And you thus are embracing the Protestant view.

Hardly -
Because Repentance is BASIC, not faith...
Because faith without (the work of) repentance is dead...
But repentance from sin unto blood brings God's Gift of Salvation...
I walked this path...

Repentance is not the CAUSE, the REASON why God THEREFORE becomes active,
REWARDS that with the payoff of faith/life/Holy Spirit/Justification.

God is always active and bringing sinners to repentance...
And through their repentance into the Kingdom of Heaven here and now on earth...

You are NOW corrrect: what you insist on is impossible and unbiblical.... NO WORK of man brings about faith/life/Holy Spirit/Justification....... such is the revealing of faith. Welcome (eventually) to the Protestant view, anathematized by the Roman Church for 500 years now. See post 213.

The first word of the Gospel of Christ is "BE YE REPENTING!!!"
It is a WORK...
God commands this work unto our Salvation...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

We all belong to one or another of them, though.

Paul wrote to "the Ekklesia in Rome" and "the Ekklesia in Corinth" and "the Ekklesia in Thessalonika"...

These Churches still exist...

Are they all denominations?

I was very stunned as I approached the Orthodox Church on hearing the Russians interrogating Americans who wanted to join the Russian Orthodox Church: "Why would you want to become Russian???" was their querie... It made no sense to them that a person would not want to be an American Christian... As immigrants, they did not know the condition of the Church in the West... They had no idea of the treasury they held, and how it was not found in the west... They thought that Christianity is Christianity no matter where it is found... They were not the Russian denomination, they were the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church of Christ...

Arsenios

 

[Albion]

Paul wrote to "the Ekklesia in Rome" and "the Ekklesia in Corinth" and "the Ekklesia in Thessalonika"...

These Churches still exist...

Are they all denominations?

They've been absorbed into a denomination, yes.

 

[Arsenios]

Arsenios, you are demonstrably wrong.

It would not be the first time...

Colossians 1
[1]This letter is from Paul, chosen by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus, and from our brother Timothy.

The word CHOSEN has been added to the Bible in this veresion...

*2 Timothy 1
[1]This letter is from Paul, CHOSEN by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus. I have been sent out to tell others about the life he has promised through faith in Christ Jesus.

The word CHOSEN has again been ADDED TO the Bible in this passage...
These first two simply say:
"by the Will of God"
and that by way of the greeting line of the epistle, and not by content...
The word CHOSEN is not there...

*Titus 1
[1]This letter is from Paul, a slave of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ. I have been sent to proclaim faith to those God has chosen and to teach them to know the truth that shows them how to live godly lives.

He is telling others that they are chosen...

Look - He IS chosen by God for the works he is doing, and he knows it, but he is not running around beating his chest about how HE, PAUL, is the CHOSEN ONE of God...

*1 Peter 1:1-2
[1]This letter is from Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ.I am writing to God’s chosen people who are living as foreigners in the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia.
[2]God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy. As a result, you have obeyed him and have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ.May God give you more and more grace and peace.
*Romans 8:16-18,29-30,33-35,37-39
[16]For his Spirit joins with our spirit to affirm that we are God’s children.
[17]And since we are his children, we are his heirs. In fact, together with Christ we are heirs of God’s glory. But if we are to share his glory, we must also share his suffering.
[18]Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will reveal to us later.
[29]For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
[30]And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.
[33]Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for his own? No one—for God himself has given us right standing with himself.
[34]Who then will condemn us? No one—for Christ Jesus died for us and was raised to life for us, and he is sitting in the place of honor at God’s right hand, pleading for us.
[35]Can anything ever separate us from Christ’s love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death?
[37]No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us.
[38]And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love.
[39]No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

No question of the chosen nature of God's people...

They just do not go around blabbing it...

And we disciple ours not to even think it...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

They've been absorbed into a denomination, yes.

And the Church in Antioch?
And Jerusalem?

Which denomination did the Church of Rome get absorbed INTO??
Or the Church of the Greeks?
Or the Arabs in Antioch?
Or the Jews in Jerusalem?


Were they not all one Body of Christ in various geographical locations?
If they were all denominated, then how so?
Whose name created their separation?
ALL the Eastern Orthodox Churches proclaim ONE identical Faith one with another...
And their differences with those Apostolic Churches with whom they are NOT in Communion is miniscule by western standards... So important is it that we speak with one accord...

Arsenios

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Christianity is not some commodity that increases or declines based upon marketing and advertisement schemes...

You'd be surprised. (sorry for the rabbit trail - back to topic...)

 

[Josiah]

It certainly CAN be...

SO.... you say that the Dead can't do good works unless there is faith..... but that the Dead Atheist must repent BEFORE faith and life will be given.... and you say that repentance is a good work.... Hum.

one must HOPE for something, one must desire some outcome, and that one must in that desire THINK that certain DEEDS will ATTAIN that outcome... You regard this thinking as Faith... You think it is belief... You think it is faith... It is actually the thought that one's actions will have desired results...

So.... the Dead Atheist, with NOTHING from God (because God does nothing until the "first step" as MC put it or "the preporation" as you put it is completed by that Dead Atheist), he wants to HOPE that HIS OWN DEEDS will save him (and thus HOPES that there is no Savior). How would he then deserve a Savior when his hope is that there is none? That his own spiritual deeds that he adequately performs - as an atheist who rejects God and as one with NO Holy spirit and NO spiritual life) will accomplish all he needs? How is that the "first step" or "required preporation" for his gaining faith and life and the involvement of God? How does that "prepare" him for faith in the Savior, this "HOPE" that he own deeds do it so that there is no need for any Savior?

Now when one believes the Bible, and believes in God, and is Called BY God TO the Faith of Christ, THEN one will, we hope, repent out of faith in the Gospel... God Bless that person!

Indeed. Welcome to my position that you have been repudiating for hundreds of posts now....


Read post 213.

But I am living proof that repentance from sin apart from faith is what God seeks in us...

From what you have posted, I think you are living proof that God GAVE you life, faith and justification - and eventually even YOU realized it and repented. I think you are living proof of the Protestant position.

Because faith without (the work of) repentance is dead...

Okay. But that doesn't mean that repentance is done by Dead Atheists who have NOTHING from God, NO Holy Spirit activity at all, NO faith that God even exists (in fact, he insists on the OPPOSITE), NO awareness that he has violated anything from God (in fact, he insists on the opposite), NO turning to Christ for forgiveness, NO walking in the path of the Lord empowered by the Spirit (whom he insists doesn't exist and is all a silly myth).

God is always active and bringing sinners to repentance...

Welcome to the Protestant view that you have been repudiating and rejecting from me for hundreds of pages. Now see post 213.

The first word of the Gospel of Christ is "BE YE REPENTING!!!"

Well, actually that's Law... but again, your error is confusing association with causation and dogmatically insisting that the word "kai" (which doesn't even appear here) mandates sequence. Repentance doesn't come before faith if faith is what brings repentance..... you cannot insist that good works must spring from faith and that repentance is a good work that comes WITHOUT any faith at all, the prerequiste to faith, the good work done by he without faith or life or God that CAUSES God to enter the picture.

 

[Josiah]

This thread is not about denominations.


A discussion of church, congregation and denomination is here: http://christianityhaven.com/showth...omination-Faith-Community&p=135031#post135031


THIS discussion is about Justification.




.

 

[Arsenios]

SO.... you say that the Dead can't do good works unless there is faith..... but that the Dead Atheist must repent BEFORE faith and life will be given.... and you say that repentance is a good work.... Hum.





So.... the Dead Atheist, with NOTHING from God (because God does nothing until the "first step" as MC put it or "the preporation" as you put it is completed by that Dead Atheist), he wants to HOPE that HIS OWN DEEDS will save him (and thus HOPES that there is no Savior). How would he then deserve a Savior when his hope is that there is none? That his own spiritual deeds that he adequately performs - as an atheist who rejects God and as one with NO Holy spirit and NO spiritual life) will accomplish all he needs? How is that the "first step" or "required preporation" for his gaining faith and life and the involvement of God? How does that "prepare" him for faith in the Savior, this "HOPE" that he own deeds do it so that there is no need for any Savior?







Indeed. Welcome to my position that you have been repudiating for hundreds of posts now....


Read post 213.







From what you have posted, I think you are living proof that God GAVE you life, faith and justification - and eventually even YOU realized it and repented. I think you are living proof of the Protestant position.







Okay. But that doesn't mean that repentance is done by Dead Atheists who have NOTHING from God, NO Holy Spirit activity at all, NO faith that God even exists (in fact, he insists on the OPPOSITE), NO awareness that he has violated anything from God (in fact, he insists on the opposite), NO turning to Christ for forgiveness, NO walking in the path of the Lord empowered by the Spirit (whom he insists doesn't exist and is all a silly myth).






Welcome to the Protestant view that you have been repudiating and rejecting from me for hundreds of pages. Now see post 213.






Well, actually that's Law... but again, your error is confusing association with causation and dogmatically insisting that the word "kai" (which doesn't even appear here) mandates sequence. Repentance doesn't come before faith if faith is what brings repentance..... you cannot insist that good works must spring from faith and that repentance is a good work that comes WITHOUT any faith at all, the prerequiste to faith, the good work done by he without faith or life or God that CAUSES God to enter the picture.

Repentance will bring you to God Who will Receive you with the Gift of Salvation here and now...

You have a strange way of twisting my words...

Without citing them...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

This thread is not about denominations.


A discussion of church, congregation and denomination is here: http://christianityhaven.com/showth...omination-Faith-Community&p=135031#post135031


THIS discussion is about Justification.




.

Think of it as a side-bar...

Arsenios

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Repentance will bring you to God Who will Receive you with the Gift of Salvation here and now...

You have a strange way of twisting my words...

Without citing them...

Arsenios

Many in history have had radical changes, even to their personality - become wholly different. But the faith in Christ that is evidence (there's that darn word...) of repentance toward God is wholly missing.
God was not impressed with Bill W. and Dr. Bob of A.A. when they radically changed their lives based on following "god as (they) understood him". Bill W. was wholly adamant that he would not turn to Christ, but did much good. Shall we say his 'repentance' was acknowledged as "good" - as "evidence" of a godly faith? Hardly. His legacy has produced many changed lives, but not all in repentance toward Christ

 

[Josiah]

Repentance will bring you to God Who will Receive you with the Gift of Salvation here and now...

Then repentance is not a good work as you earlier insisted - since you earlier said a good work requires faith.

Then repentance happens with an inert God since the Dead Atheist has to come to God via the adequate performance of this good work (which you claim isn't a good work) which he performs with an absolutely inert God (whom you claim is never inert), and the prime cause of life/faith/justification and God no longer being inert is the Dead Atheist's adequate performance of a good work.


In once place, you FIRST have one WITH faith and life and Holy Spirit who "then" is Called by God and "then" repents. So, one must ask how he STOPPED being a Dead Atheist and now a Christian (with "belief" and "faith") BEFORE he is Called and repents... when you insist he must REPENT before anything - that's the "preparation" for the whole thing, must be accomplished BEFORE anything else, what MC calls, "the FIRST step?" Which is it? Is God inert UNTIL the Dead Atheist who denies God even exists, who thinks the Bible is all silly falsehood, who has NO Holy Spirit, NO spiritual life "repents" before God, THEN God springs into action and gives him faith and life, his own good work being rewarded? OR is the Holy Spirit working, changing the person, working in mysterious ways, working His miracle, so that they "hear" and "respond," so that FIRST comes God working His mysterious miracle granting His GIFTS of faith/belief, spiritual life, justification - which reveals itself in good works, perhaps first among them, repentance? The second is the Protestant view you (for hundreds of pages) have repudiated but occasionally affirm but then denounce.



- Josiah

 

[RichWh1]

The word CHOSEN has again been ADDED TO the Bible in this passage...
These first two simply say:
"by the Will of God"
and that by way of the greeting line of the epistle, and not by content...
The word CHOSEN is not there

Which version of the Bible added Chosen?