All they need to do is show that it is not the teaching of the Church...
But the RCC won't. In fact, we see Catholics (including MC) often stating EXACTLY the Lutheran position (if I notice it, I will thank him for his very Protestant point).
But I disagree. Since the RCC insists (officially and in the boldest way possible) that it's WRONG, that it's HERESY - then it is only reasonable that they identify what the "it" is.... WHAT specifically is "HERESY." But no Catholic will. This includes two Roman Catholic priests at websites, both of whom REFUSED to indicate WHAT is heresy in the Lutheran position. And our good and esteemed friend, MC, has REFUSED to do this for years, since he came here. Again, do you think it entirely unreasonable to ask WHAT specifically is "HERESY" that is officially, powerfully, for five centuries and counting declared to be HERESY, anathematized, the RCC spliting Western Christianity over? If even I (just a single, bloat) charged you with stating heresy, would it be totally reasonable for you to ask "WHAT did I state that is heresy?" Would it be only required if I said, "Well, 'it' is not what I believe but I won't tell you what 'it' is or how my view is different?"
There MUST be a reason why Catholics so persistently dodge this. I have posted a solid, accurate summery of the Lutheran position in this matter (see post 213). I have done this for years here at CH and for years before that at other sites. NO CATHOLIC - lay or religious - will note WHAT in it is such horrible, terrible, condemnable HERESY that must be anathematized and necessitated splitting Western Christianity over. NONE. Just always evasion. Always changing the topic to something ELSE instead (often the issue of the CHRISTIAN life - because that's a topic we agree on).
And the teaching of every Church on earth for the first thousand years of the History of Christianity and even up to this very day and hour is that repentance is unto Salvation...
1. The issue is JUSTIFICATION. And what the RCC for 500 years has repudiated is the Lutheran view on THAT. As you know, the RCC has been extremely careful to note that we do NOT disagree on all that is associated with soteriology, ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY what is involved with Justification (narrow - the sense in which the RCC knows is meant in the Lutheran position). Again, the RCC's position has NEVER been (and is not now) "The Lutheran position is solidly biblical and wonderfully correct AS FAR AS IT GOES but more needs to be said - you know, the more Lutherans DO say and they are wonderfully correct in that, too." No. The RCC position is that WHAT Lutherans say (see post 213) is HERESY. It's just I can't get any Catholic to say WHAT in it is heresy. In fact, they will typically say EXACTLY what Lutherans do.
2. Again, there's not a person on the planet who says that repentance is irrelevant or not required. THAT is not - and never has been - in dispute. The issue is: IS OUR act of repentance the cause of our being given spiritual life - saving faith - the Holy Spirit - Justification? The Lutheran position is no: Jesus is the Savior, the Holy Spirit is the giver of life, each dead person does not save self by performing the good work of repentance (which no dead person CAN or WOULD ever do). The Roman Catholic Church says the Lutheran position is horrible, terrible HERESY.... so is it reasonable to conclude that the Catholic position IS that Jesus saves no one, the Incarnation/Cross/Resurrection does nothing, the dead save self by performing a particular good work - repentance - which God rewards with Life, Faith, the Holy Spirit (NONE of which they had - at all - prior to the outstanding performance of repentance) - thus making self the Savior of self since obviously Jesus and Jesus' work justifiies no one, self does.... That would "fit" with what my Catholic teachers told us: "Jesus saves no one but rather He makes it POSSIBLE for each to be saved." "God helps those who help themselves." "Jesus opened the gate to heaven but you gotta get yourself through it by what YOU do."
because God does not Justify the unrepentant...
Probably depends on what you mean by "justification." But of course, the Lutherans mean this in a specific sense and they were and are EXTREMELY careful that this is explained so that it is IMPOSSIBLE to misunderstand the sense meant. The leading, best scholars and theologians in all the RCC spoke with Luther and other Lutheran theologians - all of whom STRESSED the meaning meant, they read the books and works they repudiated and anthematized, all of which went to amazing lengths so that it would be impossible to misunderstand the meaning meant, so they understood how Luther and Lutherans used this term. Which is why the RCC was so very careful to note that it was JUSTIFICATION that was thing they were anathematizing in Lutheranism - not soteriology or sanctification or even salvation.
In that context, I disagree. I think so does the RCC. The unregenerate, the DEAD, the ones without spiritual life, the ones who reject that God even exists, the ones who believe Jesus is a big fat lie and myth, they do not repent (or can they)... and they CERTAINLY don't repent to God whom they reject, repudiate and deny. They can FEEL remorse (as can your dog) but that's not repentance. At another website, a Catholic apologist actually confessed to me that "Lutherans were actually being very Catholic - more so than the Catholics of his day - and the Catholic Church eventually understood this. It's just that we came to call this "initial grace" rather than Justification - but we mean essentially the same thing." I found that interesting. So I asked, "Then can we expect the Catholic Church to repent of all the excommunications, the anathemas, the splitting of Western Christianity?" To which he replied, "Don't hold your breath." But I think he may be wrong and you may be right: The RCC does hold the Lutheran position (post 213) to be HORRIBLE HERESY because Lutherans hold that it's the Holy Spirit that gives life (not the dead to self), that Jesus saves no one (at all, ever) dead self does by the adequate performance of certain good works. But many Catholics will deny that.
Yes, a LIFE of repentance and humility is essential to soteriology. It is one of MANY things that is. But association does not even imply causation. Again, it's generally true that all living humans breathe.... it's necessary for living humans to breathe.... but it's absurd to dogmatically insist that breathing is what CAUSES one who be conceived in the womb and gain life.
According to God, NO ONE is even theoretically CAPABLE of even chanting the words "Jesus is Lord" (with any meaning) UNLESS the Holy Spirit is present.... in other words, the Holy Spirit empowers, the Holy Spirit enables.... not the DEAD MAN who rejects that God even exists, who holds that Jesus is a myth and offers nothing. That COMING of the Holy Spirit, that COMING of life that now "sees" God and thus CAN know that God exists and God is offended, that COMING of faith so taht they can "see" Jesus and can realize that in the Lamb there is forgiveness... THAT is Justification (narrow) EXACTLY as meant by the Lutherans and EXACTLY as condemned as heretical by the RCC.
But you may be right on target. And many agree with you. If so, then what SO upsets the RCC is the idea that Jesus is the Savior rather than self. Many hold that the RCC repudiates the Lutheran view because the
RCC holds that what CAUSES spiritual life, what CAUSES the Holy Spirit to come and begin His work, what CAUSES them to believe in God and in the Savior, is what dead self does for self - the hoop they jump through void of life, faith, the Holy Spirit - the adequate performance of self of repenting. It has nothing to do with Jesus or God or mercy or grace or the Gospel - just a dead man adequately performing this good work for self - and God rewarding it appropriately. Some claim you're right - that IS the RCC "gospel." But Catholics will often deny that. Some may even give the Lutheran view, which of course is heresy in the RCC.
Although again, what we Catholics were taught is what you theorize: "Jesus saves no one but He makes it
POSSIBLE for each to save themselves" (Thus Jesus is in no sense the Savior, HE is a possibility-maker). Although we
SAID every Sunday, "..... I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life" but what we were taught is that self is the giver of life to self by jumping through a long list of hoops: self giving self life, self saving self, self causing all this for self. THAT'S what we were taught (the opposite of what the Creed says, quite different from what the Council of Orange said, very different from what God says in the Bible) - BUT Catholics will usually tell you that that is NOT what Catholics believe, just what they often teach. But you may be right: The REASON the RCC rejects the Lutheran posiition is that it affirms that Jesus is the Savior and that God is the giver of Life. And this is anathema to the RCC. But I'll tell you, they will deny that is the issue. They just won't tell you what is. They will go to amazing lengths to NOT say WHAT in the Lutheran position is such horrible, terrible HERESY - they'll just keep changing the subject to evade that. MAYBE you're right - the reason is if they did, they would deny Jesus as the Savior and the Holy Spirit was the Lord and Giver of Life (as well as the Council of Orange, etc., etc., etc;. and some are too smart to do that).
- Josiah
.
