Jesus Christ, died for all

[MennoSota]

To tell the truth, it has always been my view that most of what Menno posts is meant just to yank our strings. Some of the briefer retorts undeniably fit that mold, so why would we think that the more theologically-oriented posts are any different?

Your dogma wouldn't let you, Albion. Now...get back to your Concord, catechism or whatever church document you so covet.

 

[MennoSota]

We all have a chance it is not for just a few

 

[Josiah]

Josiah, scripture is clear that Jesus laid down his life for the sheep.

As noted many times before, I completely agree! I've completely agreed with every verse you've submitted!


Of course, obviously, this verse is ENTIRELY MISSING your position. It doesn't state your weird new dogma. There's no "ONLY." Your entire position is completing missing from this verse. You might have well have quoted Daniel 3:1, it would have done you as much good.

Unless your position rests on the argument that if something is true for one it ergo cannot be for any other, as in "Donald Trump is a citizen of the USA" dogmatically proving that ergo no one else is. But that would be too silly even for radical Calvinists.


Over and over and over again, in so very many Scriptures, God flat-out, directly, literally, verbatim states that Jesus died "for all" "for everyone" "for the whole world." Over and over again. And you can't seem to find any verse, not even one, that proclaims, "That's not true, actually Jesus did not die for all but only for some." You choose to reject and disbelieve what God has said so often, so clearly..... and accept a verse you can't find instead.


I'm not responsible for the major contradiction that is your position. You have to live with your complete contradiction of SO many Scriptures and your disagreement with the Ecumenical Council of Orange, every Christian for 1500 years, and 99.99% of Christians for the past 500 years (including every Calvinist personally known to me), your disbelief of what God has SO often and SO clearly and SO directly has stated, insisting on instead believing a verse you can't find.






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[MennoSota]

As noted many times before, I completely agree! I've completely agreed with every verse you've submitted!


Of course, obviously, this verse is ENTIRELY MISSING your position. It doesn't state your weird new dogma. There's no "ONLY." Your entire position is completing missing from this verse. You might have well have quoted Daniel 3:1, it would have done you as much good.

Unless your position rests on the argument that if something is true for one it ergo cannot be for any other, as in "Donald Trump is a citizen of the USA" dogmatically proving that ergo no one else is. But that would be too silly even for radical Calvinists.


Over and over and over again, in so very many Scriptures, God flat-out, directly, literally, verbatim states that Jesus died "for all" "for everyone" "for the whole world." Over and over again. And you can't seem to find any verse, not even one, that proclaims, "That's not true, actually Jesus did not die for all but only for some." You choose to reject and disbelieve what God has said so often, so clearly..... and accept a verse you can't find instead.


I'm not responsible for the major contradiction that is your position. You have to live with your complete contradiction of SO many Scriptures and your disagreement with the Ecumenical Council of Orange, every Christian for 1500 years, and 99.99% of Christians for the past 500 years (including every Calvinist personally known to me), your disbelief of what God has SO often and SO clearly and SO directly has stated, insisting on instead believing a verse you can't find.






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There is no contradiction. All who Christ died for are purchased and brought home to be with him for eternity. When the last soul is awakened, Jesus will return in judgment.
Why do you believe Jesus shed his blood in vain? Why do you believe he failed to bring what he purchased home with him? Such a waste of precious blood is not to be viewed lightly. Yet, according to your position, his blood was insufficient to purchase and redeem.

 

[Albion]

Your dogma wouldn't let you, Albion. Now...get back to your Concord, catechism or whatever church document you so covet.

You really did not need to confirm -- with examples, no less -- what I wrote in that post. But thanks anyway.

 

[MennoSota]

You really did not need to confirm -- with examples, no less -- what I wrote in that post. But thanks anyway.

You are entirely welcome oh pointy hatted one.

 

[Andrew]

I speak according to the scriptures.
And, notice that you add things to the scriptures, and even to what I say.

ALL ARE CONDEMNED until they believe in Jesus.

Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.


You don't even know that all are condemned until they believe!
You don't even know that we cross from DEATH to LIFE when we believe.

You don't even know that, and you falsely judge me.

I talked about coming to faith today, tomorrow or in a twinkling of an eye, you made it clear that an unbeliever cannot become a believer through faith, I did not falsely judge, you should read over what you said.

 

[Josiah]

There is no contradiction.

"Christ died for all" and "Christ did NOT die for all but ONLY for SOME" are contradictions.

The first is what the Bible so often, so directly, verbatim, literally STATES. In Scripture after Scripture. It's what all Christians for 1500 years therefore believed and what the Ecumenical Council of Orange thus affirms, it's what nearly all Christians (including every Calvinist personally known to me) therefore believes and affiirms. God is correct.

The second is a weird idea invented by a tiny few radical later-day Calvinists. Who have yet to find even one verse that says what they do and that means they are right and all those Scriptures are flat-out wrong.

Yet, according to your position, his blood was insufficient to purchase and redeem.

QUOTE ME.


This is a pattern for you; when you can't support your position, you claim OTHERS have a stupid, silly position and mock it - as if that makes your position correct. Bad debating, bad logic.

You just again show your abandonment of faith.... your repudiation of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE.... you simply delete faith from justification as if ALL that is essential in justification is Jesus' death.... Um, Jesus spoke more about faith than He did about His death... I gave you MANY, MANY Scriptures that flat-out STATE that there MUST be faith that apprehends/trusts/relies upon the work of Jesus. Your abandonment of faith in this regard is, sadly, a common radical Calvinist characteristic and is why radical Calvinism invented universalism. Those who consider rather than delete faith see the absurdity of your endless question, the false premise on which it rests.





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[Andrew]

"Christ died for all" and "Christ did NOT die for all but ONLY for SOME" are contradictions.



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He died for "many"... does "many" mean "all"?

 

[MennoSota]

"Christ died for all" and "Christ did NOT die for all but ONLY for SOME" are contradictions.

The above is how you spin it.
I say differently.
Christ died for all the sheep.
No contradiction with scripture.
Now, let's look at your assertion.
Christ died for all humanity.
It means Jesus purchased all humanity. His blood bought them all. Not one was left unpurchased.
Yet...
Yet, for you...
Yet, for you, there are many who go to hell despite Jesus having purchased them. For all those people, the blood of Jesus (his purchase) was utterly wasted. No benefit was ever secured at the cross for so very many. Jesus lied when he said that he would never leave them nor forsake them.
You have this conundrum because it is faith that justifies, but humans cannot generate their own faith, which means that God must choose to give them faith and thus justify them. However, since the blood of Christ purchased everyone, it means that God willingly bled and died, uselessly, for people he never once intended to give the gift of faith. So God purchased, but never brings people home. He leaves them and he forsakes them.
How sad your position is. It makes God a liar.

 

[Josiah]

"Christ died for all" and "Christ did NOT die for all but ONLY for SOME" are contradictions.

The first is what the Bible so often, so directly, verbatim, literally STATES. In Scripture after Scripture. It's what all Christians for 1500 years therefore believed and what the Ecumenical Council of Orange thus affirms, it's what nearly all Christians (including every Calvinist personally known to me) therefore believes and affiirms. God is correct.

The second is a weird idea invented by a tiny few radical later-day Calvinists. Who have yet to find even one verse that says what they do and that means they are right and all those Scriptures are flat-out wrong.



.

I say differently.

"Christ died for all" and "No, Jesus did not die for all but only for some" are contradictions.

Christ died for all the sheep. No contradiction with scripture.

No one is questioning that, are they? I have REPEATEDLY said I FULLY agree with that. I FULLY agree with every single word in every single verse you have referenced or quoted. I disagree with the one you can't find, the one that states your position (if you could only find it), the one what states, "No, that's wrong, Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for SOME."


This seems to be one of your fave tactics: If you have nothing to support your position, you CLAIM the other person said some silly thing everyone knows they never said and don't believe and then you mock it, thinking that means your position is therefore substantiated. And of course, your love for "the shell game" (as it's called in debate), when you have nothing - change the topic to something were you do, something where people will agree with you.

Now, let's look at your assertion. Christ died for all humanity. Yet, for you.. there are many who go to hell.

Because I hold to Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE. Because I agree with Scripture that faith is essential to going to heaven, that no one goes to heaven without faith. I do not agree that the ONLY necessity is for Jesus to die for you (faith being irrelevant, moot, meaningless.... the Holy Spirit being worthless). "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM shall not parish but has everlasting life." I don't delete the part in caps.

Yes, Jesus died for all. Just as the Bible so often, so boldly, so directly, so obviously, literally, directly STATES. Does that mean all are justified? No, just as the Bible so often, so clearly, states. Why? Because faith is also needed.

It makes God a liar.

No.

Your position makes God the liar since He requires we tell EVERYONE the Gospel but it only actually applies to a few - so to you, He requires we lie to most people (not only a lie but extremely cruel). And your position makes God the liar when He states - over and over and over again - that Jesus died for all when actually He stated that that's not true and He only died for some (although you can't find where God actually said that). There are all those verses you have had to radically spin 180 degrees to mean the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you say, making God a liar. It makes God a liar when all are called to faith when most of the time, that faith will be in vain and useless because there's nothing for it to apprehend, to trust, to rely upon except what God said that isn't actually true (well, in your position).




.

 

[Josiah]

[MENTION=387]Andrew[/MENTION]



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSAfmvRKIVU



.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Via evolution? Via magical incantation?
Since Jesus separates the sheep from the goats, exactly how does a human, in their own power, become a sheep? Inquiring minds wish to know how you conjure up such a feat of magic.

Do you think a real live goat is turning into a real animal called a sheep?

Jesus tells us we have to change to be saved.

Matthew 18:3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[YourTruthGod]

I talked about coming to faith today, tomorrow or in a twinkling of an eye, you made it clear that an unbeliever cannot become a believer through faith, I did not falsely judge, you should read over what you said.

An unbeliever can get faith like the Bible says, and that is after they HEAR, LEARN, get PERSUADED, and CONVINCED.

You are going against what God says.

Doesn't that bother you?

 

[YourTruthGod]

Paul says that God made the prophetic writings known so that all nations might believe and obey. So again, the word of God tells us that faith comes from hearing. Here are more scriptures that explain how we have to HEAR the message that saves: Acts 8:31: 10:14; 11:14; 16:31; John 9:36; Ephesians 1:13; 4:21; Titus 1:3; Colossians 1:5; 1:23.

 

[Andrew]

An unbeliever can get faith like the Bible says, and that is after they HEAR, LEARN, get PERSUADED, and CONVINCED.

You are going against what God says.

Doesn't that bother you?

Richard Dawkins makes a living reading the Bible and he mocks it and exploits it.
I didn't believe and I wasn't convinced at what I read when I first began reading, I wanted to believe but I couldn't, then one day it all came to me out of no where, it clicked and I felt the presence of God and spoke with him. So no my testimony doesn't bother me, God intervenes and you can't actually expect it or order it, God chooses you, when I was an atheist I would have laughed myself to death if someone were to tell me that I would become a Christian.

 

[MennoSota]

"Christ died for all" and "No, Jesus did not die for all but only for some" are contradictions.






No one is questioning that, are they? I have REPEATEDLY said I FULLY agree with that. I FULLY agree with every single word in every single verse you have referenced or quoted. I disagree with the one you can't find, the one that states your position (if you could only find it), the one what states, "No, that's wrong, Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for SOME."


This seems to be one of your fave tactics: If you have nothing to support your position, you CLAIM the other person said some silly thing everyone knows they never said and don't believe and then you mock it, thinking that means your position is therefore substantiated. And of course, your love for "the shell game" (as it's called in debate), when you have nothing - change the topic to something were you do, something where people will agree with you.







Because I hold to Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - SOLA FIDE. Because I agree with Scripture that faith is essential to going to heaven, that no one goes to heaven without faith. I do not agree that the ONLY necessity is for Jesus to die for you (faith being irrelevant, moot, meaningless.... the Holy Spirit being worthless). "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM shall not parish but has everlasting life." I don't delete the part in caps.

Yes, Jesus died for all. Just as the Bible so often, so boldly, so directly, so obviously, literally, directly STATES. Does that mean all are justified? No, just as the Bible so often, so clearly, states. Why? Because faith is also needed.






No.

Your position makes God the liar since He requires we tell EVERYONE the Gospel but it only actually applies to a few - so to you, He requires we lie to most people (not only a lie but extremely cruel). And your position makes God the liar when He states - over and over and over again - that Jesus died for all when actually He stated that that's not true and He only died for some (although you can't find where God actually said that). There are all those verses you have had to radically spin 180 degrees to mean the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you say, making God a liar. It makes God a liar when all are called to faith when most of the time, that faith will be in vain and useless because there's nothing for it to apprehend, to trust, to rely upon except what God said that isn't actually true (well, in your position).




.

Josiah, it is easy to see your conundrum. The fact is that you deny it and refuse to reconcile the reality that you require Jesus blood be spilled in vain.
I hold no delusion that you will ever be honest on this issue. You will hide behind your terms and still preach synctretism from your lips. It is what it is.

 

[MennoSota]

Do you think a real live goat is turning into a real animal called a sheep?

Jesus tells us we have to change to be saved.

Matthew 18:3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

So you're not magically changing yourself to a sheep...now you're magically changing yourself to a little child?
Either way, it's all about you and your own personal efforts. No grace needed...

 

[YourTruthGod]

So you're not magically changing yourself to a sheep...now you're magically changing yourself to a little child?
Either way, it's all about you and your own personal efforts. No grace needed...

You are mocking God.

Grace is that you don't have to bring a sheep to the temple to atone for your soul.

You still have to do what God says to do.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Richard Dawkins makes a living reading the Bible and he mocks it and exploits it.
I didn't believe and I wasn't convinced at what I read when I first began reading, I wanted to believe but I couldn't, then one day it all came to me out of no where, it clicked and I felt the presence of God and spoke with him. So no my testimony doesn't bother me, God intervenes and you can't actually expect it or order it, God chooses you, when I was an atheist I would have laughed myself to death if someone were to tell me that I would become a Christian.

What does Richard Dawkins have to do with anything?

You say you wanted to believe but couldn't or didn't want to believe?

God doesn't save unrepentant unbelievers.

I go by the Bible and not by your story of what you think happened or not.