It is finished

MoreCoffee

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When Jesus said "It is finished" on the cross, does scripture say what language he said it in?
Scripture says he also said "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani" which is Aramaic, the common spoken language of Judah in the first century. Maybe "It is finished" was also said in Aramaic.
 

Lees

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Let's pretend that's true. You are evading the point: The word we HAVE - the word the Holy Spirit chose to put into Scripture here - in a GREEK word. We can guess all day long whether Jesus originally said this sentence in Hebrew or Greek or Latin or Japanese, and it would be an entirely, completely, absolutely waste of time, fully irrelevant. Because the Holy Spirit didn't inspire a Latin verb or a Hebrew one, He inspired a GREEK one. Instead of fully wasting everyone's time with GUESSING about what is NOT there, we should discuss what IS there, what the Holy Spirit chose to put there, not what He MIGHT possibly have chosen to not put there.

The word is in koine Greek: "Tetelestai." It's usually translated into English as, "It is finished" or "it is completed." This word was typically used when debt was being paid. But it was bigger than that. When someone would come with a debt so large they could never repay it, instead of throwing them in jail and never receiving any money, or instead of making them owe indefinitely, the tax collector would stamp the debt with Tetelestai. "Paid in Full" is the literal translation. The debt was forgiven. The person went free. A debt they could never repay, forgiven completely. That is what Jesus yelled from the cross. It's not just "finished"or "completed" - it's paid in full. A debt we owed but could never complete, paid for by the only one who owed nothing. And when he yelled that from the cross and died, the curtain in the Temple separating people from Most Holy God tore, from top to bottom (in and of itself, also an impossibility due to its sheer thickness). Access was granted. And then Jesus, our High Priest, sat down at the right hand of the Almighty, signifying that his work was done (priests were not allowed to sit until their job was completed) and that God had accepted his sacrifice. So we rest and rejoice in the fact of Tetelestai. Paid in Full.



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Are you a robot? All you did is repeat almost verbatim what you said in post #(16).

Pay attention. Jesus was a Jew. Born into a Jewish family, community, and nation. He spoke Hebrew. Unless otherwise indicated, such as (Mark 15:34), there is absolutely no reason to think He spoke any other language.

Lees
 

Albion

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Pay attention. Jesus was a Jew. Born into a Jewish family, community, and nation. He spoke Hebrew.
The historians and linguists, as well as the Pope, say he spoke Aramaic; but you can believe whatever you want, I guess. It certainly is NOT the case that the Jews of Christ's day automatically spoke Hebrew as their first language just because they were Jewish.
 

Josiah

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Jesus was a Jew. Born into a Jewish family, community, and nation. He spoke Hebrew

Pay attention.

There is NO evidence Jesus spoke Hebrew; it ceased being a spoken language about 400 years before He was born. While it's POSSIBLE (because Hebrew was still used in some of Jewish worship in the synagogue),He more likely spoke Aramaic as His usual language - although He likely could also speak Greek and at least some Latin.

But here's what you insist on ignoring. The word we have in Scripture is GREEK. Not Hebrew. IF He originally said this sentence in Hebrew (and that's very unlikely) we don't have that. What part of that can't you understand? The Holy Spirit did NOT inspire it into the text in Hebrew, the Holy Spirit did so in GREEK. So your whole point about Hebrew is totally, completely, absolutely IRRELEVANT. We don't have a Hebrew word to discuss, we have the word GOD put in the text - a GREEK one.




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Lees

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The historians and linguists, as well as the Pope, say he spoke Aramaic; but you can believe whatever you want, I guess.

No one is denying Jesus could speak Aramaic.

But His first and natural language was Hebrew. To think otherwise is ridiculous.

And there is no reason to think that when Jesus said 'it is finished' that it was Aramaic. Other than you just want to believe whatever you want.

Lees
 
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Lees

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Pay attention.

There is NO evidence Jesus spoke Hebrew; it ceased being a spoken language about 400 years before He was born. While it's POSSIBLE (because Hebrew was still used in some of Jewish worship in the synagogue),He more likely spoke Aramaic as His usual language - although He likely could also speak Greek and at least some Latin.

But here's what you insist on ignoring. The word we have in Scripture is GREEK. Not Hebrew. IF He originally said this sentence in Hebrew (and that's very unlikely) we don't have that. What part of that can't you understand? The Holy Spirit did NOT inspire it into the text in Hebrew, the Holy Spirit did so in GREEK. So your whole point about Hebrew is totally, completely, absolutely IRRELEVANT. We don't have a Hebrew word to discuss, we have the word GOD put in the text - a GREEK one.




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That is rich. Jesus was Hebrew. Born into a Hebrew family, commnunity, and nation. Yet you say no evidence Jesus spoke Hebrew. I guess none of the other Hebrews spoke Hebrew either.

I wonder what 'jot and title' means? (Matt. 5:18) "For verily I say unto you , Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one title shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fullfilled."

Lees
 

MoreCoffee

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There is NO evidence Jesus spoke Hebrew;
Jesus read the scriptures from the scroll of Isaiah which was written in Hebrew. It is likely that he spoke those words in Hebrew.
 

Josiah

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Jesus read the scriptures from the scroll of Isaiah which was written in Hebrew. It is likely that he spoke those words in Hebrew.


More Coffee, Lees


Perhaps, but it does not mean He commonly spoke the language; it's generally understood no one had for nearly 500 years.

You are likely too young, but in your Catholic Church, LATIN was used through the late 1950's - even though that language ceased to be commonly used for some 1500 years. It continued to be used in religion but not in common use. Much the same is true in Judaism. Classic Hebrew ceased during the Babylonian Captivity - replaced by early forms of Aramaic (we actually can see that in a small section of Daniel). BUT it continued to be used in worship, and sometimes the Scriptures would be read in Hebrew (although by Jesus' time, often in Greek; indeed it's entirely possible that the scroll Jesus read from was from the LXX and was Greek - although in Galilee, it's more likely it was in the original Hebrew).

Hebrew (a dead language for 500 years by Jesus' time) and Aramaic (the everyday language Jesus no doubt spoke - although He likely was fluent in Greek too) are related, but they are not the same. Scholars agree that Jesus would be familiar with Hebrew (just as many Catholics were with Latin until the 1960s') and it's entirely possible that leaders among the Pharisees and Sadducees used it in official ways (again, much as Catholic bishops sometime still do with Latin) but it was not a common spoken language among the peoples - and had not been for five centuries. More Coffee, your own Pope stressed this recently in a visit to Israel, that Jesus spoke Aramaic, he corrected an Israelite who commented that He spoke Hebrew. You should pay attention to your Pope.


But you obviously are evading the point: The word we HAVE is GREEK. Whether Jesus originally said this in Hebrew or Aramaic or Japanese or English doesn't matter because we don't have that word in any of those languages, do we? Let that soak in. The word we HAVE is the very word the Holy Spirit inspired to BE THERE (and I don't agree the Holy Spirit goofed and if translation was needed, did a horrible job of it). We have a koine GREEK word. The very word the inerrant Holy Spirit put there. Not a Russian or Hebrew word, a GREEK one. The very one the inerrant Holy Spirit inspired and wanted there. And we know what that word means.




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Lees

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More Coffee, Lees


Perhaps, but it does not mean He commonly spoke the language; it's generally understood no one had for nearly 500 years.

You are likely too young, but in your Catholic Church, LATIN was used through the late 1950's - even though that language ceased to be commonly used for some 1500 years. It continued to be used in religion but not in common use. Much the same is true in Judaism. Classic Hebrew ceased during the Babylonian Captivity - replaced by early forms of Aramaic (we actually can see that in a small section of Daniel). BUT it continued to be used in worship, and sometimes the Scriptures would be read in Hebrew (although by Jesus' time, often in Greek; indeed it's entirely possible that the scroll Jesus read from was from the LXX and was Greek - although in Galilee, it's more likely it was in the original Hebrew).

Hebrew (a dead language for 500 years by Jesus' time) and Aramaic (the everyday language Jesus no doubt spoke - although He likely was fluent in Greek too) are related, but they are not the same. Scholars agree that Jesus would be familiar with Hebrew (just as many Catholics were with Latin until the 1960s') and it's entirely possible that leaders among the Pharisees and Sadducees used it in official ways (again, much as Catholic bishops sometime still do with Latin) but it was not a common spoken language among the peoples - and had not been for five centuries. More Coffee, your own Pope stressed this recently in a visit to Israel, that Jesus spoke Aramaic, he corrected an Israelite who commented that He spoke Hebrew. You should pay attention to your Pope.


But you obviously are evading the point: The word we HAVE is GREEK. Whether Jesus originally said this in Hebrew or Aramaic or Japanese or English doesn't matter because we don't have that word in any of those languages, do we? Let that soak in. The word we HAVE is the very word the Holy Spirit inspired to BE THERE (and I don't agree the Holy Spirit goofed and if translation was needed, did a horrible job of it). We have a koine GREEK word. The very word the inerrant Holy Spirit put there. Not a Russian or Hebrew word, a GREEK one. The very one the inerrant Holy Spirit inspired and wanted there. And we know what that word means.




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Please address my post to you, #(26), instead of trying to avoid it by compounding a reply to two different persons. In other words, you didn't respond to my post.

Lees
 

Josiah

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Please address my post to you, #(26), instead of trying to avoid it by compounding a reply to two different persons. In other words, you didn't respond to my post.

Lees

Nor you to any of mine; you just ignored and evaded them.

I realize you want to talk about the ENGLISH word you find in your translation, but what you don't seem to know if that God did not inspire the Bible in English but in Hebrew and Greek, which is theology is always based on what God said originally - in the Hebrew and Greek.

And you keep evading the point that it could not matter less what languages Jesus might have spoken because the verb you are focused on is GREEK. We CANNOT know if Jesus said this in some other language because the Holy Spirit chose to inspire a GREEK word. I realize you seem to believe God is a poor translator and probably goofed, but we disagree on that point. IF a translation was needed, I hold that inerrant Holy Spirit did it correctly whereas you hold He very likely goofed.




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Lees

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Nor you to any of mine; you just ignored and evaded them.

I realize you want to talk about the ENGLISH word you find in your translation, but what you don't seem to know if that God did not inspire the Bible in English but in Hebrew and Greek, which is theology is always based on what God said originally - in the Hebrew and Greek.

And you keep evading the point that it could not matter less what languages Jesus might have spoken because the verb you are focused on is GREEK. We CANNOT know if Jesus said this in some other language because the Holy Spirit chose to inspire a GREEK word. I realize you seem to believe God is a poor translator and probably goofed, but we disagree on that point. IF a translation was needed, I hold that inerrant Holy Spirit did it correctly whereas you hold He very likely goofed.




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Please address my post #(26).

Lees
 

Josiah

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Please address my post #(26).


Please READ what is posted to you. This has been done... over and over... by me and several others. See post 28 for example.

Give proof that Jesus' usual, common language was HEBREW. Good luck, no scholar holds to that. Hebrew ceased to be a common spoken language FIVE CENTURIES before Jesus was born. Yes, it was still used by high ranking rabbis at their meetings.... yes, parts of the liturgy in some Jewish synogogues used Hebrew and SOMETIMES the Scriptures were read in Hebrew (but more often in Greek) but this does not mean most Hebrews spoke Hebrew. Jesus almost certainly spoke ARAMAIC as His common, everyday language (as did all Hebrews in that area) and no doubt also knew koine Greek and probably some Latin. He would have known some Hebrew as one who grew up in the Synogogue. But He did not use Hebrew as the common language. Why you choose to deny this historical fact is amazing... and you've offered NOTHING to support your remarkable claim.


And it's irrelevant. The verb you want to discuss is a GREEK verb, not a HEBREW one. You seem to demand that 1) Jesus originally said this in Hebrew - a remarkable claim that you've offered NOTHING WHATSOEVER to support, and 2) the Holy Spirit goofed in translating this Hebrew into the Greek we have - a stunning claim that pretty much destroys all the Gospels and everything from Jesus (NONE of which are in Hebrew, only a few words of it are in Aramaic).




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Albion

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Please address my post to you, #(26), instead of trying to avoid it by compounding a reply to two different persons. In other words, you didn't respond to my post.

Lees
I'm not the person you addressed, but here's the answer. The Hebrews spoke Aramaic at that time in history as also did a lot of other people living in the Middle East. The notion--completely without any evidence--that Jesus had to have used Hebrew as his first language simply because he was Jewish is indefensible.
 

Lees

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I'm not the person you addressed, but here's the answer. The Hebrews spoke Aramaic at that time in history as also did a lot of other people living in the Middle East. The notion--completely without any evidence--that Jesus had to have used Hebrew as his first language simply because he was Jewish is indefensible.

If you're going to address my post to another, at least address my question.

Lees
 

Lees

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Please READ what is posted to you. This has been done... over and over... by me and several others. See post 28 for example.

Give proof that Jesus' usual, common language was HEBREW. Good luck, no scholar holds to that. Hebrew ceased to be a common spoken language FIVE CENTURIES before Jesus was born. Yes, it was still used by high ranking rabbis at their meetings.... yes, parts of the liturgy in some Jewish synogogues used Hebrew and SOMETIMES the Scriptures were read in Hebrew (but more often in Greek) but this does not mean most Hebrews spoke Hebrew. Jesus almost certainly spoke ARAMAIC as His common, everyday language (as did all Hebrews in that area) and no doubt also knew koine Greek and probably some Latin. He would have known some Hebrew as one who grew up in the Synogogue. But He did not use Hebrew as the common language. Why you choose to deny this historical fact is amazing... and you've offered NOTHING to support your remarkable claim.


And it's irrelevant. The verb you want to discuss is a GREEK verb, not a HEBREW one. You seem to demand that 1) Jesus originally said this in Hebrew - a remarkable claim that you've offered NOTHING WHATSOEVER to support, and 2) the Holy Spirit goofed in translating this Hebrew into the Greek we have - a stunning claim that pretty much destroys all the Gospels and everything from Jesus (NONE of which are in Hebrew, only a few words of it are in Aramaic).




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What is a jot and tittle in the Greek language? What is a jot and tittle in the Hebrew language?

Lees
 
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