Is your creed catholic, Catholic, or Christian?

[Albion]

I rarely state any position about any particular Protestant denomination and only occasionally comment on some specific belief raised in CH as a distinctly Protestant belief. .

LOL Yes, I've noticed that (and commented on it before).

What you do is speak of Protestants generally, merging all Protestants into one imaginary denomination in order to criticize one church by attributing to it something that is what some totally different church believes or does.

 

[Arsenios]

To say "and the son" in English
meaning "and through the son"
or "through the son" (in Latin filioque)
does not challenge the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.

Well, it does violate the Church Canon embraced by the Latin Fathers in the 3rd Ecumenical Council...
Which forbids the addition to or subtraction from or alteration of the Creed...

And it does inject a differing confession of the Faithful by one Communion against all the rest of the Communions that ARE the Church...

And more directly to your point, it injects a division of the meaning of "procedere" (Latin) from the Greek meaning of ontological origination to an injected meaning of ekonomic movement from point A to point B... Which is simply bad language craft... One cannot say "A bird is flying and time too..." Because "flying" has two meanings in one usage of the term... This IS, granted, a basis for much humor in all languages... But it has no place in the unifying Confession of our common Faith, which the Latin Church did alter...

The Symbol of the Faith is in fact a Prayer of Unity of all the Faithful, and not a theological pail into which we can toss in anything we think might be theologically true...

So back to you, my Brother...

Forgive my bluntness here...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Well, it does violate the Church Canon embraced by the Latin Fathers in the 3rd Ecumenical Council...
Which forbids the addition to or subtraction from or alteration of the Creed...

And it does inject a differing confession of the Faithful by one Communion against all the rest of the Communions that ARE the Church...

And more directly to your point, it injects a division of the meaning of "procedere" (Latin) from the Greek meaning of ontological origination to an injected meaning of ekonomic movement from point A to point B... Which is simply bad language craft... One cannot say "A bird is flying and time too..." Because "flying" has two meanings in one usage of the term... This IS, granted, a basis for much humor in all languages... But it has no place in the unifying Confession of our common Faith, which the Latin Church did alter...

The Symbol of the Faith is in fact a Prayer of Unity of all the Faithful, and not a theological pail into which we can toss in anything we think might be theologically true...

So back to you, my Brother...

Forgive my bluntness here...

Arsenios

It came in the early centuries long before 154 AD and was recited in the Latin speaking church(es) for 600 and more years. All very long ago, before my time by 1,500 and more years. It is a fight from generation long silent in spoken words and it remains only like their foot prints in the sands of time. It is not my fight, brother Arsenios.

 

[MoreCoffee]

LOL Yes, I've noticed that (and commented on it before).

What you do is speak of Protestants generally, merging all Protestants into one imaginary denomination in order to criticize one church by attributing to it something that is what some totally different church believes or does.

Some Protestants, perhaps most or even all, aver that things such as sola scriptura are their common heritage and a sign of unity between the denominations so is it unreasonable for me to refer to such things as generalities common to Protestantism?

 

[Albion]

Some Protestants, perhaps most or even all, aver that things such as sola scriptura are their common heritage and a sign of unity between the denominations so is it unreasonable for me to refer to such things as generalities common to Protestantism?

With some issues, no, it is not wrong. With many others, yes, that would be wrong.

But as for that "sign of unity between the denominations" comment...whats that all about?




.

 

[MoreCoffee]

With some issues, no, it is not wrong. With many others, yes, that would be wrong.

But as for that "sign of unity between the denominations" comment...whats that all about?

I was thinking of the times in CH when I've been assured by a poster or several posters that sola scriptura and some other doctrines are among the essentials that hold Protestantism together in a unity at least as concrete and doctrinally enduring as that found among Catholic Christians and maybe Orthodox Christians.

 

[Albion]

I was thinking of the times in CH when I've been assured by a poster or several posters that sola scriptura and some other doctrines are among the essentials that hold Protestantism together in a unity at least as concrete and doctrinally enduring as that found among Catholic Christians and maybe Orthodox Christians.

Well, you keep using Sola Scriptura as your example, and it is about as universal among Protestants as you can get. I can think of several exceptions but, yes, it is typically Protestant. But if we move on to other beliefs, etc. then the picture changes.

I still feel that this "sign of unity" thing or that Amish people and Lutherans are supposed to feel a strong bond of something-or-other is fanciful thinking, however.

 

[Josiah]

With some issues, no, it is not wrong. With many others, yes, that would be wrong.

But as for that "sign of unity between the denominations" comment...whats that all about?




.

Of course, the RC denomination is in unity with NONE. Not even in those things it itself now regards as essential dogma (de fide dogma).

Now, Catholics may argue the RC denomination is no WORSE than some other denominations in this regard... that there are others just as bad as the RC one in this... and I wouldn't disagree. But the reality remains: the RC denomination has a grand "unity" of none, in full doctrinal unity with NONE. And so it seems ironic that apologists for the RC denomination choose to rebuke other denominations here, pointing one finger at others and 3 back at themselves.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Well, you keep using Sola Scriptura as your example, and it is about as universal among Protestants as you can get. I can think of several exceptions but, yes, it is typically Protestant. But if we move on to other beliefs, etc. then the picture changes.

I still feel that this "sign of unity" thing or that Amish people and Lutherans are supposed to feel a strong bond of something-or-other is fanciful thinking, however.

I agree, it seems fanciful to me too.

Another protestant doctrine is sola fide, that appears to be close to universal, though some object to the idea that sola fide may imply that good works are possibly optional but the potential for good works to be optional appears to be contested.

 

[Albion]

There are a few denominations that would not be correctly described as Sola Fide, but it too is nearly a universal among Protestants, that is true.

It is a question as to whether or not these ought even to be termed Protestant and, in fact, most members probably disavow the term, but that's the way the world classifies things.

 

[Josiah]

It is true that there are denominations that are in full doctrinal unity with NONE.
The RCC is one of them.
Therefore, it is laughable for Catholics to boast of the "unity" their denomination has (which is none) and rebuke other denominations, a few of which are as bad (but none worse) than theirs on this point.

 

[Albion]

I must say that I have never understood how a militant Catholic could contend that there is unity when everyone knows that there are liberal Catholics and charismatic Catholics and ultratraditional Catholics, Catholics who absolutely blow off the church regulations that they do not care for, and Catholics who are very loyal to anything Holy Mother Church decrees. There is (more or less) an organizational or institutional unity, but that's replicated by many Protestant denominations.

And just look at that other forum we all know. It currently has four different forums for Roman Catholics, precisely because they all could not get along on the RC denominational forum. But almost every other church group manages all right.

 

[Josiah]

I must say that I have never understood how a militant Catholic could contend that there is unity when everyone knows that there are liberal Catholics and charismatic Catholics and ultratraditional Catholics, Catholics who absolutely blow off the church regulations that they do not care for, and Catholics who are very loyal to anything Holy Mother Church decrees. There is (more or less) an organizational or institutional unity, but that's replicated by many Protestant denominations.

And just look at that other forum we all know. It currently has four different forums for Roman Catholics, precisely because they all could not get along on the RC denominational forum. But almost every other church group manages all right.

In my experience, militant Catholics rarely claim that Catholics are in full doctrinal unity with anyone or anything... such would be ABSURD.... I know hundreds of Catholics and not two that fully agree. The CLAIM is that the singular RC denomination is "in full unity".... they just are careful to not finish the sentence, because the reality (known to all) is that the RCC is in unity with.... NONE (Well, itself...but then the LDS is in unity with itself, too - doesn't mean much). ANY self who looks in the mirror at self will see self, just not sure how one doing that makes them better than another doing that.


Now, that obvious point noted, there IS much more doctrinal unity among most Christians than I think is generally acknowledged, and the Nicene Creed is a GREAT example of that. Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodist, Reformed and well beyond - maybe 95% of Christians - affirm the Creed (even if they don't regularly proclaim it). And while the wording may vary slightly and our understandings differ a bit in a few places, it IS stunning how much we are all affirming. It's understandable that Christians seeking agreement focus on where the work still needs to be done (thus focus on where we disagree), it should not be forgotten that we agree on MUCH. FULL agreement? No. MUCH agreement? Yes. And that spans across MANY denominational lines.




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[MoreCoffee]

It is true that there are denominations that are in full doctrinal unity with NONE.

Is there any denomination in 100% agreement with another yet different denomination?

The RCC is one of them.
Therefore, it is laughable for Catholics to boast of the "unity" their denomination has (which is none) and rebuke other denominations, a few of which are as bad (but none worse) than theirs on this point.

 

[TurtleHare]

Is there any denomination in 100% agreement with another yet different denomination?

Are there any two men that can agree 100% with each other? I think not.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Are there any two men that can agree 100% with each other? I think not.

Agreed, so let us, all of us in CH, abandon the line of argument that two people differing in some aspect of their beliefs is the same thing as two denominations that differ in substantial matters in their written formal statements of faith/beliefs.

 

[Josiah]

In my experience, militant Catholics rarely claim that Catholics are in full doctrinal unity with anyone or anything... such would be ABSURD.... I know hundreds of Catholics and not two that fully agree. The CLAIM is that the singular RC denomination is "in full unity".... they just are careful to not finish the sentence, because the reality (known to all) is that the RCC is in unity with.... NONE (Well, itself...but then the LDS is in unity with itself, too - doesn't mean much). ANY self who looks in the mirror at self will see self, just not sure how one doing that makes them better than another doing that.


Now, that obvious point noted, there IS much more doctrinal unity among most Christians than I think is generally acknowledged, and the Nicene Creed is a GREAT example of that. Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodist, Reformed and well beyond - maybe 95% of Christians - affirm the Creed (even if they don't regularly proclaim it). And while the wording may vary slightly and our understandings differ a bit in a few places, it IS stunning how much we are all affirming. It's understandable that Christians seeking agreement focus on where the work still needs to be done (thus focus on where we disagree), it should not be forgotten that we agree on MUCH. FULL agreement? No. MUCH agreement? Yes. And that spans across MANY denominational lines.



.

s there any denomination in 100% agreement with another yet different denomination?

Not the RC denomination..... thus the claim of a few militant Catholics that the Catholic Church has unity is laughable, it's just an unfinished sentence because everyone knows the rest of the sentence is ".... with NONE."


It's just one of countless egotistical, power-grabbing claims some militant Catholic apologists make (and others mindlessly parrot) that are simply absurd.


Yes. The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod shares (word for word) EXACTLY the same dogma as The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. Two different denominations with identical formal dogma (right down to the punctuation). Now, they do NOT agree on other issues (thus one reason why they are two different denominations who don't even cooperate much) but their views on Justification, Christology, the Sacraments, etc. is verbatim identical. But I"m not the one insisting that the LCMS denomination has all this grand "unity" and thus that means something, it's a few Catholics parroting just one of the absurd, silly Catholic claims obviously mindlessly because the claim is obviously absurd. It would be helpful if Catholics actually would THINK before parroting any of these old, tired, silly claims but some clearly don't.



- Josiah





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[MoreCoffee]

...
Yes. The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod shares (word for word) EXACTLY the same dogma as The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. Two different denominations with identical formal dogma (right down to the punctuation). Now, they do NOT agree on other issues (thus one reason why they are two different denominations who don't even cooperate much) ...

- Josiah

Franciscan monks and Dominican monks once (a long while ago) had seriously bad inter order relations even though they shared exactly the same creeds and dogmas as defined by authorised councils and papal declarations. Their differences arose from philosophical differences between followers of saint Dominic and followers of John Duns Scotus. It was very heated for a while. They were all Catholics - hence the unity of dogma - and they were all men (literally in the case of the monks themselves) so prone to fight against each other and push one another. They had differing orders and remained in one church and, despite their deep disagreements received communion from the same Church.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Now, that obvious point noted, there IS much more doctrinal unity among most Christians than I think is generally acknowledged, and the Nicene Creed is a GREAT example of that. Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodist, Reformed and well beyond - maybe 95% of Christians - affirm the Creed (even if they don't regularly proclaim it). And while the wording may vary slightly and our understandings differ a bit in a few places, it IS stunning how much we are all affirming.

A study I'd looked at HERE suggested in their summary that 58% disagree with the statement “There is little value in studying or reciting historical Christian creeds and confessions". However, that figure is a combined total of those that "strongly disagree" and "disagree somewhat" (both 29%). Disagree somewhat could go either way, imo. There was also a "not sure" option (16%). Those that "Strongly agree" or "agree somewhat" were 26% of the total.

So, imo, there's a lot of variation and hardly "doctrinal unity" among most Christians regarding the creeds, their use, and value.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

[MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION] - what is a "Militant Catholic"?