Is the Reformation to blame for Mariology abuse?

[MoreCoffee]

This is something to think about on matters like Mary's roe in Catholic faith

 

[charis en excelcis]

The line of argument in the above quote appears to be argument for the sake of arguing. Since the Catholic Church already unambiguously teaches that there is one and only one saviour of humanity why play these semantic games? What does it matter if I address a Judge in the courts as "my Lord" when holy scripture has told me that there is one Lord, Jesus Christ? By calling the judge "my Lord" nobody could seriously advance the idea that I truly believe the judge to be the Lord Jesus Christ. These kinds of semantic quibbles lead to nothing productive.

You argument is ad hominem. Would you, as one Catholic teacher, say that Mary plays the opposite role as woman did in the garden? That she deserves the title of co-redemptrix because instead of being part of the fall of man, she received the gospel and carried it, in a fashion, in her womb?

 

[MoreCoffee]

I am not convinced that a reply to post #22 is going to be useful for anybody.

I am not "a Catholic teacher" I'm a forum member, I chat with people.

Have a listen to this, maybe it will help.

 

[charis en excelcis]

So, do you agree with that Catholic teacher who says that Mary played the opposite role of the woman in the garden? Do you believe that the act of carrying our Redeemer qualifies her for the title of co-redemptrix?

 

[MoreCoffee]

So, do you agree with that Catholic teacher who says that Mary played the opposite role of the woman in the garden? Do you believe that the act of carrying our Redeemer qualifies her for the title of co-redemptrix?

I really have no idea what you think "co-redemptrix" might mean. I know for myself it cannot mean that Blessed Mary in any ways pays the price for the sins of the human race. So, what does this bug-bear title mean for you?

 

[seekingsolace]

In my 73 canonical book holy scriptures there are passages supporting prayer for the dead and the intercession of angels and men in heaven for those on earth.

I know that in Deuterocanonical books there are.

I see as I've been away for a day or so this has turned into debates. My apologies for that, was never my intent.

 

[Josiah]

I had heard this opinion before in that the Protestant Reformation was to blame for the oversteppings of Mariology.

Please share some quotes from Luther than you think caused CATHOLICS to over-step Mariology.

 

[Alithis]

Is the Reformation to blame for Mariology abuse?

No.the veneration of the created being over the creator has always been idolizing the created and is sinful .. it misses the mark falls short .

it is both disobedience and of zero value to do so .

it is also a total lack of faith - yes i said that .

To even harbor the thought that the lord jesus cannot hear the sincere prayer is nothing more then unbelief. it denies the power of God ,the omnipresence of God and the omniscience of God

the bible is recorded for our instruction and admonition.
every time one seeks to aid by praying seeking another other then the Lord God himself ..it ends bad -this is made so obvious over and over in scripture . to call on angels or people since past from this life is ,throughout scripture an act of rebellion against the very principles of faith IN god .

the practice is not taught in the scriptures is not In the scriptures and disagrees with the scriptures .. thus it does not originate from the Lord God most High whose word alone is truth .

mary ..in scripture ,is remembered as the vessel by which the word of God was ushered as flesh into the world .
mary was chosen for the simple reason that ..she was betrothed to Joseph who was of the line of david and judah to fulfill scripture .(any maiden that was betrothed to joseph would have been chosen by that sole attribute )
beyond that there is no mariology .

EVERY other teaching venerating her into a deity or a perpetual virgin, elevating the created being in position over the creator (which is idolatry) come from OUTSIDE THE BIBLE .and cannot be supported from within the clear holy unambiguous scripture .

 

[MoreCoffee]

I know that in Deuterocanonical books there are.

I see as I've been away for a day or so this has turned into debates. My apologies for that, was never my intent.

These things happen and it is not your fault what other forum members decide is interesting and worth discussing

 

[charis en excelcis]

I really have no idea what you think "co-redemptrix" might mean. I know for myself it cannot mean that Blessed Mary in any ways pays the price for the sins of the human race. So, what does this bug-bear title mean for you?

Thank you for telling me what you would not accept. I am surprised that someone who has well developed views concerning you beleifs, particularly your Catholicism, is not more aware of this movement. I hope that your view never comes in conflict with the RCC.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Thank you for telling me what you would not accept. I am surprised that someone who has well developed views concerning you beleifs, particularly your Catholicism, is not more aware of this movement. I hope that your view never comes in conflict with the RCC.

Who is in this 'movement', for example, who is its leader and how do you know that this person or group of persons are its leaders? In fact what is this 'movement'? What do they want to have adopted as doctrine or dogma?

 

[charis en excelcis]

Who is in this 'movement', for example, who is its leader and how do you know that this person or group of persons are its leaders? In fact what is this 'movement'? What do they want to have adopted as doctrine or dogma?

The movement is primarily through Vox Populi Mariae Mediatrici, led by Dr. Mark Miravalle of the Franciscan University of Stuebenville.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The movement is primarily through Vox Populi Mariae Mediatrici, led by Dr. Mark Miravalle of the Franciscan University of Stuebenville.

Do you mean this ...

Why A New Marian Dogma?

The popes of [the] Catholic Church, based on Scripture and Tradition, have officially taught over the course of centuries that the Virgin Mary, Mother of Jesus, is also the Spiritual Mother of all peoples. Mary performs this role as spiritual mother to humanity in three basic ways.

First, Mary consented to be the Mother of Jesus (Lk 1:38), and thereby by her “fiat” or “yes” brought Jesus, the divine Redeemer, into the world (Lk 2:7). Mary also shared in the suffering of her Son, as was prophesied by Simeon, that her heart too would be “pierced” (Lk 2:35). At Calvary, Mary’s motherly heart suffered in union with her crucified Son, and she offered her suffering in union with that of Jesus to the Heavenly Father for the redemption of the world (Jn 19:25-27). For this role, Mary is called by the Church the “Co-redemptrix” or female co-redeemer with Jesus. As Bl. John Paul II explained, “Crucified spiritually with her crucified Son….her role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son” (L’Osserv. Rom., March 11, 1985). Mary is the mother who spiritually suffers for her earthly children.

Secondly, Mary is the mother who spiritually nourishes her earthly children by dispensing the graces of salvation. As she did at the Wedding of Cana (Jn. 2:1-10), Mary intercedes to bring the graces of Jesus to all of humanity. As she “mediated” or interceded to bring Jesus himself, the Source of all graces, into the world (Lk 1:38; Lk 2:7), Mary is appointed by Jesus himself at the climax of his redeeming sacrifice on the cross to become the spiritual mother of all peoples and to dispense to humanity the graces of Jesus, when he says to Mary, “Behold, your son” (Jn. 19:26). Jesus then tells John, and all those who seek to become beloved disciples of Jesus, to “behold your Mother”(Jn. 19:26). For this role of dispensing the saving graces of Jesus to her earthly children, Mary is called the “Mediatrix of all graces.” As Bl. John Paul II explained, “Mediatrix is implicit in the term, Mother.” (L’Osserv. Rom., Oct. 1, 1997).

Thirdly, Mary brings the needs of mankind to the throne of Christ. She is the principal intercessor on behalf of her earthly children, and as Queen, she has the greatest possible intercessory power to Jesus, the King of the Kingdom of God, for humanity’s needs. In the Old Testament, the Queen Mother of the King had the greatest power of intercession to her son, the king in the line of David, on behalf of the Jewish people (1 Kings 2:19). In the New Testament, Mary is the new Queen Mother who give birth to the “King of Kings” (Lk 2:7), and is crowned as the Queen and Advocate in the Kingdom of God (Rev 12:1-6), becoming the greatest intercessor for the people of God to Christ the King. For this role of interceding for humanity, Mary is called the “Advocate”, her most ancient title, dating back to the 2nd century (St. Irenaeus, Adv. Haer.V).

... (For source click here)

I am not sure what it is about this that offends folk. Saint Paul spoke of his suffering completing what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ:

Colossians 1:24 RSV Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,​

If saint Paul's earthly sufferings can complete what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ for the sake of his body (the church) then I see no difficulty present in referring to the Blessed Virgin Mary's sufferings as doing something similar, and even more so than saint Paul could because unlike saint Paul Blessed Mary never persecuted the church.

So exactly what is offensive to you about "co-redemptrix" given that saint Paul is a "co-redeemer" in the same sort of way as Mary?

 

[charis en excelcis]

Do you mean this ...

​

I am not sure what it is about this that offends folk. Saint Paul spoke of his suffering completing what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ:

Colossians 1:24 RSV Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,​

If saint Paul's earthly sufferings can complete what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ for the sake of his body (the church) then I see no difficulty present in referring to the Blessed Virgin Mary's sufferings as doing something similar, and even more so than saint Paul could because unlike saint Paul Blessed Mary never persecuted the church.

So exactly what is offensive to you about "co-redemptrix" given that saint Paul is a "co-redeemer" in the same sort of way as Mary?

I think that "offended" is too gentle a word for how I feel about this. When God said "have no other gods before me" He was not requiring mere primacy, but solitary, that he share none of His divine nature, attributes or titles with any other. If I was to make any being outside of the godhead into my theologies co-creator, I would be committing heresy and idolatry. that is how most Protestants view giving the title of Co-Redemptrix to Mary.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I think that "offended" is too gentle a word for how I feel about this. When God said "have no other gods before me" He was not requiring mere primacy, but solitary, that he share none of His divine nature, attributes or titles with any other. If I was to make any being outside of the godhead into my theologies co-creator, I would be committing heresy and idolatry. that is how most Protestants view giving the title of Co-Redemptrix to Mary.

Aside from yourself in the above quote I do not know anybody, especially no Catholic, who thinks of Blessed Mary as God (or a Goddess). The very idea is absurd and blasphemous.

I reckon the offence is imagined rather than actually present in a word like "co-redemptrix" ... but if folk want to feel offended then who can stop them?

 

[charis en excelcis]

Aside from yourself in the above quote I do not know anybody, especially no Catholic, who thinks of Blessed Mary as God (or a Goddess). The very idea is absurd and blasphemous.

I reckon the offence is imagined rather than actually present in a word like "co-redemptrix" ... but if folk want to feel offended then who can stop them?

Giving her the title of Co-Redemptrix is the equivalent of giving her any other Divine Title. Names matter. It reflects how you view and how you will treat something. You want me to just be easily offended, but that is not the case. The Catholic and the orthodox Church divided in part over one word: filioque. Part of your religious history is the issue of words. Sharing the title of redeemer means sharing the work of redemption. that is intolerable. Saying "it's just a title and we mean nothing by it" is silliness.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Giving her the title of Co-Redemptrix is the equivalent of giving her any other Divine Title. Names matter. It reflects how you view and how you will treat something. You want me to just be easily offended, but that is not the case. The Catholic and the orthodox Church divided in part over one word: filioque. Part of your religious history is the issue of words. Sharing the title of redeemer means sharing the work of redemption. that is intolerable. Saying "it's just a title and we mean nothing by it" is silliness.

I've yet to see God called "co-redemptrix" so I reckon your post has either given God a title that holy scripture never does or your post is just wrong

 

[Alithis]

Yes, just as the prayer said in the rosary is ours through Blessed Mary; "Holy Mary pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death". Or "Saint Bernadette pray for me to the Lord our God". These are my prayers passed on through the saints. The saints in the two passages I quoted are saints in heaven. The angels also play a role carrying the prayers of the saints. If the theory that all prayer ought to be directly to God why would angels and saints play any role at all? Obviously the author of the Apocalypse envisioned something quite different when he saw the prayers of the saints carried to God by angels.

there is NO bible basis for this - it is yet more teaching of men superimposed over the word of God . since both disagree i am left with a choice ..i choose the bible and cast off these false teachings .

 

[Alithis]

Ill say it again and again

No.the reformation is not the cause the veneration of the created being over the creator has always been idolizing the created and is sinful .. it misses the mark falls short .

it is both disobedience and of zero value to do so .

it is also a total lack of faith - yes i said that .

To even harbor the thought that the lord jesus cannot hear the sincere prayer is nothing more then unbelief. it denies the power of God ,the omnipresence of God and the omniscience of God

the bible is recorded for our instruction and admonition.
every time one seeks to aid by praying seeking another other then the Lord God himself ..it ends bad -this is made so obvious over and over in scripture . to call on angels or people since past from this life is ,throughout scripture an act of rebellion against the very principles of faith IN god .

the practice is not taught in the scriptures is not In the scriptures and disagrees with the scriptures .. thus it does not originate from the Lord God most High whose word alone is truth .

mary ..in scripture ,is remembered as the vessel by which the word of God was ushered as flesh into the world .
mary was chosen for the simple reason that ..she was betrothed to Joseph who was of the line of david and judah to fulfill scripture .(any maiden that was betrothed to joseph would have been chosen by that sole attribute )
beyond that there is no mariology .

EVERY other teaching venerating her into a deity or a perpetual virgin, elevating the created being in position over the creator (which is idolatry) come from OUTSIDE THE BIBLE .and cannot be supported from within the clear holy unambiguous scripture .

 

[MoreCoffee]

...i choose the bible ...

Perhaps that's where the problem lies. Choosing the bible - presumably you meant that you choose a 66 book bible that was handed down to you from the traditions of your forefathers in your chosen denomination - so that it contains only the materials from which your tradition builds doctrine is sure to yield only the doctrines that your tradition wants to propagate.