Is the Reformation to blame for Mariology abuse?

[George]

I had heard this opinion before in that the Protestant Reformation was to blame for the oversteppings of Mariology.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I had heard this opinion before in that the Protestant Reformation was to blame for the oversteppings of Mariology.

The gospel according to saint Luke tells us that "all generations will call me blessed" (Luke 1:48) and surely that pre-dates the origins of the Protestant Revolt and the Reformation that followed it? And the honouring of the Blessed Virgin Mary was in place of many centuries before there was any notion of "Mary-ology" ... //Fixed Luke tag - Romanos

 

[MoreCoffee]

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[seekingsolace]

I'm not entirely sure the different beliefs qualify as Mariology abuse. Admittedly we have some go to the extremes; individual problems of course. I have spoken out before of people discussing Mary in crude terms, like some science project. There is no excuse for people not to show a level of respect.

The issue I have is venerating, or using a different mediator to the established. This is nothing against you guys, but (in my mind) I feel this is dangerous ground. I cannot in good conscience pray to anyone but God. I do not mean in the sense of worshiping, but venerating.

I don't think honoring and considering Mary blessed is dependent on anything else but your heart and mind. The importance of her position in our Lords life, blessedly given by God is testament enough. Though I fear (and it is fear) to go anywhere further than that personally.

 

[psalms 91]

Mary was indeed blessed but I think she would be appaled by people praying to her rather than to Jesus. She was blessed and should be looked upon in that way but I cant see praying to her.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I'm not entirely sure the different beliefs qualify as Mariology abuse. Admittedly we have some go to the extremes; individual problems of course. I have spoken out before of people discussing Mary in crude terms, like some science project. There is no excuse for people not to show a level of respect.

The issue I have is venerating, or using a different mediator to the established. This is nothing against you guys, but (in my mind) I feel this is dangerous ground. I cannot in good conscience pray to anyone but God. I do not mean in the sense of worshiping, but venerating.

I don't think honoring and considering Mary blessed is dependent on anything else but your heart and mind. The importance of her position in our Lords life, blessedly given by God is testament enough. Though I fear (and it is fear) to go anywhere further than that personally.

I agree that some do express their respect for and honour given to Mary in effusive and sometimes disturbing terms. But I have heard people do similar things for a beloved national leader (Gandhi for example, Lincoln, Queen Elizabeth, even Napoleon) and for honoured religious teachers and those who founded their own denomination. People are inclined to say more than is wise sometimes.

There is only one mediator who is able to act both as a creature and as God thus truly bridging the gap between creature and creator and that one is the Lord Jesus Christ yet at the same time many human beings and angels and all other intelligent creatures who seek good for others are able to pray for the faithful and to intercede for them. The holy scriptures are full of examples of men and women who pray for others and there are a few cases of angels who pray for and act for the good of human beings.

 

[seekingsolace]

There is only one mediator who is able to act both as a creature and as God thus truly bridging the gap between creature and creator and that one is the Lord Jesus Christ yet at the same time many human beings and angels and all other intelligent creatures who seek good for others are able to pray for the faithful and to intercede for them. The holy scriptures are full of examples of men and women who pray for others and there are a few cases of angels who pray for and act for the good of human beings.

I agree there are examples of people praying on earth for others, as to in heaven - I have yet to see a valid basis for this. Unless I could find a firm scriptural support for that position, I will remain overly cautious. This is nothing against those who do, yet my conscience would bear witness against me.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I agree there are examples of people praying on earth for others, as to in heaven - I have yet to see a valid basis for this. Unless I could find a firm scriptural support for that position, I will remain overly cautious. This is nothing against those who do, yet my conscience would bear witness against me.

It is in the Apocalypse of of saint John the theologian:

(Revelation 5:8 KJV) And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

(Revelation 8:3-4 KJV) And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.​

 

[seekingsolace]

It is in the Apocalypse of of saint John the theologian:

(Revelation 5:8 KJV) And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

(Revelation 8:3-4 KJV) And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.​

But they were not praying for us, the prayers offered were ours.

In the NT, even the Pauline epistles alone show reference to the saints as us.

Romans 8:26: "Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God."

 

[MoreCoffee]

But they were not praying for us, the prayers offered were ours.

In the NT, even the Pauline epistles alone show reference to the saints as us.

Romans 8:26: "Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God."

Yes, just as the prayer said in the rosary is ours through Blessed Mary; "Holy Mary pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death". Or "Saint Bernadette pray for me to the Lord our God". These are my prayers passed on through the saints. The saints in the two passages I quoted are saints in heaven. The angels also play a role carrying the prayers of the saints. If the theory that all prayer ought to be directly to God why would angels and saints play any role at all? Obviously the author of the Apocalypse envisioned something quite different when he saw the prayers of the saints carried to God by angels.

 

[seekingsolace]

Yes, just as the prayer said in the rosary is ours through Blessed Mary; "Holy Mary pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death". Or "Saint Bernadette pray for me to the Lord our God". These are my prayers passed on through the saints. The saints in the two passages I quoted are saints in heaven. The angels also play a role carrying the prayers of the saints. If the theory that all prayer ought to be directly to God why would angels and saints play any role at all? Obviously the author of the Apocalypse envisioned something quite different when he saw the prayers of the saints carried to God by angels.

I am sure they are Saints in heaven, but there is no established verses to support praying to them.

In regards to angels carrying the prayers, this is a book of symbolism. Being literal or not, they are serving the Lord by providing the pleasing incense, not praying.

I don't believe what I said is a theory. It is a biblical supported basis of prayer addressed to God, through our High Priest and Intercessor Jesus, along with the Holy Spirit working on our behalf in prayer. I cannot go against what I understand to be true and throw caution to the wind.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I am sure they are Saints in heaven, but there is no established verses to support praying to them.

In regards to angels carrying the prayers, this is a book of symbolism. Being literal or not, they are serving the Lord by providing the pleasing incense, not praying.

I don't believe what I said is a theory. It is a biblical supported basis of prayer addressed to God, through our High Priest and Intercessor Jesus, along with the Holy Spirit working on our behalf in prayer. I cannot go against what I understand to be true and throw caution to the wind.

In my 73 canonical book holy scriptures there are passages supporting prayer for the dead and the intercession of angels and men in heaven for those on earth.

 

[charis en excelcis]

The present movement to declare Mary co-redemptrix may be an insurmountable wall.

 

[Alithis]

I had heard this opinion before in that the Protestant Reformation was to blame for the oversteppings of Mariology.

No.the veneration of the created being over the creator has always been sinful.

 

[Alithis]

The present movement to declare Mary co-redemptrix may be an insurmountable wall.

It always was it always will be .
I will never bow to romes teachings .only to the lord Jesus .

 

[Brighten04]

Jesus said ask the Father in His name, not blessed Mary's name.

 

[psalms 91]

Yes, Jesus is the mediator with the Father

 

[MoreCoffee]

The present movement to declare Mary co-redemptrix may be an insurmountable wall.

That's like saying that folk who have an opinion with which one does not agree makes conversion to Christianity impossible. Clearly the Catholic Church not not teach that the Blessed Virgin Mary is 'co-redeemer' of humanity. And even if a title like "co-redemtrix' became an official title it could never be construed to mean that Blessed Mary redeemed humanity from their sins. The Catholic Church already teaches unambiguously that Christ alone is saviour.

 

[charis en excelcis]

That's like saying that folk who have an opinion with which one does not agree makes conversion to Christianity impossible. Clearly the Catholic Church not not teach that the Blessed Virgin Mary is 'co-redeemer' of humanity. And even if a title like "co-redemtrix' became an official title it could never be construed to mean that Blessed Mary redeemed humanity from their sins. The Catholic Church already teaches unambiguously that Christ alone is saviour.

Actually, I think it is very significant. What we call things not only reflect, but directs what we think. If I was to be given the title of co-governor of Idaho, by the actual government of Idaho, even if the title was honorary, it would reflect how the government of Idaho thinks of me and would influence how they treat me in the future. The title of redeemer is applied because his life was exchanged for us, setting us free while he bore the punishment. I cannot share that relationship with Mary. She did not die vicariously for me. She did not bear my sin. Her life was not exchanged for me. To give her the title, as some are moving to do, would be blaspheme and idolatry.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Actually, I think it is very significant. What we call things not only reflect, but directs what we think. If I was to be given the title of co-governor of Idaho, by the actual government of Idaho, even if the title was honorary, it would reflect how the government of Idaho thinks of me and would influence how they treat me in the future. The title of redeemer is applied because his life was exchanged for us, setting us free while he bore the punishment. I cannot share that relationship with Mary. She did not die vicariously for me. She did not bear my sin. Her life was not exchanged for me. To give her the title, as some are moving to do, would be blaspheme and idolatry.

The line of argument in the above quote appears to be argument for the sake of arguing. Since the Catholic Church already unambiguously teaches that there is one and only one saviour of humanity why play these semantic games? What does it matter if I address a Judge in the courts as "my Lord" when holy scripture has told me that there is one Lord, Jesus Christ? By calling the judge "my Lord" nobody could seriously advance the idea that I truly believe the judge to be the Lord Jesus Christ. These kinds of semantic quibbles lead to nothing productive.