Is Baptism Just an Inert Outward Symbol?

MennoSota

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No need. You've been shown countless times in many threads. I'm not posting the same Scriptures I've posted for you before only for you to accuse me of eisegesis.
You make a false claim. Your verses do not support your claim. I went through them one by one. There is nothing in those verses that make the claims you have made.
It is clear that you use the Bible for your agenda rather than allowing the Bible to change your agenda.
 

MennoSota

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You have the wrong thread.


I've noted your silly point that "infant" "child" "baby" "young" have nothing to do with AGE. But I'm not buying it. When Menno Simons (the inventor of all the Baptism dogmas you parrot and evade) says, "we believe and teach that the baptism of believers is of God and his word, and infant baptism of the dragon and the beast… Since Christ has commanded that believers should be baptized, and not infants, all reasonable-minded men must admit, that infant baptism … is nothing less than a ceremony of anti-christ, open blasphemy, an enchanting sin, a molten calf; yea, abomination and idolatry.” IMO, he's likely talking about infants - and thus AGE.


And once again, yet again, still one more time, you have the wrong thread. I realize - we all do, my friend - that you stated you have nothing to say regarding this thread, nothing to support the Dogma you echo.... and that's okay. BUT you seem very, very determined to get this thread closed.... and since you haven't succeeded in getting the thread closed and pushed away so that no one see sit.... it seems you've just gone to your favorite ploy - change the subject. In the age thread, you have had COUNTLESS opportunities to show where the Bible states "we are commanded to not baptize infants" but you won't. This thread is not about the AGE of anything or anyone concerning anything whatsoever. DID YOU READ THE OPENING POST YET? In the Infant Be are commandaptism thread, you refused to talk about that topic but insisted on talking about other (any OTHER) Anabaptist dogmas - Repentance Only Baptism and Credoaptism and Immersion only Baptism - no one could get you to address the issue of AGE (only that evidently "infant" "baby" "child" and "too young" have nothing to do with AGE of anyone). Now you are over here, desiring to change the issue to AGE since you can't get the thread closed and indicated you have nothing to contribute toward your dogma. Friend, this thread is not about age. AT ALL. It's about the Anabaptist dogma that Baptism is inert, that it is only a symbol, that it is an outward symbol of an inner already accomplished personal achievement. You indicated you have nothing to support that, so... well.... why are you posting? Why the perpetual attempt to change the topic and derail the thread or get Staff to close it?






You have the wrong thread.



I'd be curious to see you substantiate that, but of course, not in this thread. No one has ever gotten you to address the issue of age in the infant baptism thread. But I'm sure that would never happen; in that thread, you insist on talking about everything BUT age.

This thread is about his teaching that baptism does nothing, baptism is inert, baptism is only an outward symbol of an accomplishes personal spiritual achievement. Way back 58 posts ago, in the opening post, you were invited to submit the words of Scripture (and anything additional of your choice) to support that. You have yet to submit anything to the issue AT ALL. Just calls for someone to close the thread so that it will not get read.... and many attempts to change the topic....



.
Tell it to Albion. He's bought into your fantasy age of x theory that no one here believes in.
 

MennoSota

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According to the statement, he believes that infants are ineligible, so that necessarily means that there is an age requirement. ANY age that does not include infants constitutes an age requirement. As we know, Baptists have no consistent opinion about what age is good enough--8, 9, early teens, later teens, whatever--but all of them exclude infants (on account of age), so there is an age requirement.
Let's look at the quote again.

"…we believe and teach that the baptism of believers is of God and his word, and infant baptism of the dragon and the beast…
Why does he state this?

Since Christ has commanded that believers should be baptized, and not infants,
Answer: Because Christ commanded believers be baptized.
Can infants believe? Do they make a confession of faith? Do they repent of their sins? How, Albion, can a spiritually dead infant express belief and faith? I would love for you to share with us how dead in their trespasses and sins infants are capable of expressing a repentant belief in Jesus as their sole Redeemer. Please share.
all reasonable-minded men must admit, that infant baptism … is nothing less than a ceremony of anti-christ, open blasphemy, an enchanting sin, a molten calf; yea, abomination and idolatry.”
--Menno Simons (1492-1561)
Is it unreasonable to baptize only people who have been redeemed and confess their repentance of sin?

Is it reasonable to baptize anyone who is dead in their trespasses and sins when they have no confession of faith and no repentance of sin?
 

atpollard

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At what age do “infants” repent and fulfill both requirements of Acts 2 for obtaining the Holy Spirit.
Josiah has made an enthusiastic case that there is no particular order, but you do not claim salvation without EVER repenting do you, so at what age do people baptized as infants repent and become saved Christians by their own faith in paedobaptist churches?
 

atpollard

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What does SCRIPTURE say?

Acts 22:16

Acts 2:38

1 Peter 3:21
Not what you seem to think.

[Acts 22:3-16 NIV] 3 "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. I studied under Gamaliel and was thoroughly trained in the law of our ancestors. I was just as zealous for God as any of you are today. 4 I persecuted the followers of this Way to their death, arresting both men and women and throwing them into prison, 5 as the high priest and all the Council can themselves testify. I even obtained letters from them to their associates in Damascus, and went there to bring these people as prisoners to Jerusalem to be punished. 6 "About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. 7 I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, 'Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?' 8 " 'Who are you, Lord?' I asked. " 'I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,' he replied. 9 My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me. 10 " 'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked. " 'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.' 11 My companions led me by the hand into Damascus, because the brilliance of the light had blinded me. 12 "A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there. 13 He stood beside me and said, 'Brother Saul, receive your sight!' And at that very moment I was able to see him. 14 "Then he said: 'The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'
  • Was the man zealous for God from youth, who was chosen by God to see the risen Christ, who acknowledged Jesus as Lord (God), and then had his sight restored by a prophet sent to tell him of his mission ... a damned sinner until he was actually baptized by the water?
  • Was Paul more like the thief on the cross, saved by the choice and will of God and faith in Christ ... who was baptized as an act of obedience for the forgiveness of his specific sins against Christ under the OT Law that required John the Baptist’s Baptism of Repentence.
  • This is an excellent example to point out that the infant baptism into the covenant is no more salvific than the OT circumcision into the covenant. Paul was a devout Jew, but unsaved until called by GOD. It was AFTER God called Paul that God wanted Paul to be baptized. Call, repent, baptize ... a pattern we see over and over.


[Acts 2:36-41 NIV] 36 "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah." 37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" 38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call." 40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
  • Were those that heard and believed the gospel and were “cut to the heart” still unsaved reprobates devoid of the working of the Holy Spirit in their heart until they were physically baptized in the water?
  • Does their cut to the heart not indicate that they believed what the heard and repented of their sins ... neither of which is possible for a “natural man”?
  • As an aside, note that “those who ACCEPTED his message were baptized, not “and their households irrespective of personal belief”, so the “and” of “repent and be baptized” must be a stronger link than you have been claiming.


[1 Peter 3:18-22 NIV] 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits-- 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
  • Starting with Noah, only eight people were saved ... and none of those eight were young children and all of those eight believed (acted in faith by climbing aboard the Ark as an act of trust in God). Noah’s ENTIRE HOUSEHOLD was saved!
  • Peter points out that salvation in Christ is like salvation on the Ark.
  • ”this water SYMBOLIZES baptism that now saves you” ... did the water “save” Noah or did trusting God save Noah and the water destroy evil?
  • ”not the removal of dirt” ... we are now talking of the water of baptism SYMBOLIZING something ... “but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.” ... does water create the pledge between you and God, or was there already a pledge that the water now ceremonially marks (as the building of an altar and a sacrifice marked the pledges of the OT)?
  • You are saved by the resurrection of Jesus Christ!

Your turn to explain what the verses mean.
 

Lämmchen

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At what age do “infants” repent and fulfill both requirements of Acts 2 for obtaining the Holy Spirit.
Josiah has made an enthusiastic case that there is no particular order, but you do not claim salvation without EVER repenting do you, so at what age do people baptized as infants repent and become saved Christians by their own faith in paedobaptist churches?
Repentance is granted to us by God. You ask about infants repenting and since repentance is a gift from God then it is also granted the same time in their baptism that the gift of the Holy Spirit is given (Acts 2). God doesn't skimp on His gifts to us.
 

MennoSota

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Repentance is granted to us by God. You ask about infants repenting and since repentance is a gift from God then it is also granted the same time in their baptism that the gift of the Holy Spirit is given (Acts 2). God doesn't skimp on His gifts to us.
.
 

zecryphon_nomdiv

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You make a false claim. Your verses do not support your claim. I went through them one by one. There is nothing in those verses that make the claims you have made.
It is clear that you use the Bible for your agenda rather than allowing the Bible to change your agenda.
Acts 2:38-39 says Baptism forgives sins. You can't deal with this, so to detract from the fact that you can't deal with this Scriptural truth, you lie about how I use the Bible and what I use it for, as if you'd have any clue in the first place. A diversionary tactic you love to employ in threads where you get into theological trouble. So, I will say it again, stop bearing false witness about those who dare to disagree with you. IOW, stop lying, if you even can.
 
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zecryphon_nomdiv

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Repentance is granted to us by God. You ask about infants repenting and since repentance is a gift from God then it is also granted the same time in their baptism that the gift of the Holy Spirit is given (Acts 2). God doesn't skimp on His gifts to us.
One thing I've observed is that there are Christians who think salvation is the result of repentance. They think if they repent, God grants them salvation, when repentance is a fruit of faith, not a cause of faith.
 

Lämmchen

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One thing I've observed is that there are Christians who think salvation is the result of repentance. They think if they repent, God grants them salvation, when repentance is a fruit of faith, not a cause of faith.
When people feel that they need a part to play then they can't see how much God is involved and to what degree. God demands obedience to the Law. God fulfills that obedience through His Son. God gives faith to believe. God grants repentance. It's all God God God. Thank God for that or none of us could be saved.
 

Lämmchen

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Lamm, you have now moved entirely away from scripture and you make your argument from perceived experience.
Feelings do not drive faith.
God gives faith (no water necessary). We see all the saints before the cross receiving faith with no water applied. Perhaps you received faith earlier and the water symbolized what God had done. You felt a euphoria at obeying God in being water baptized, yet your faith was there before water ever touched you body.
I have addressed and gone through the scripture verses you shared. Would you care to exegete them yourself to show us what exactly God says happens in water baptism?

You really don't listen to what people say here so why do you keep writing?
 

MennoSota

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Acts 2:38-39 says Baptism forgives sins. You can't deal with this, so to detract from the fact that you can't deal with this Scriptural truth, you lie about how I use the Bible and what I use it for, as if you'd have any clue in the first place. A diversionary tactic you love to employ in threads where you get into theological trouble. So, I will say it again, stop bearing false witness about those who dare to disagree with you. IOW, stop lying, if you even can.
We have gone over this. You misuse scripture in this instance and thus have a bad interpretation.
Read the passage. If you are correct, it brings up multiple theological problems that make salvation by works, not by grace. Do you really believe salvation is by human works and not by God's grace alone?

Acts 2:37-41 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
 

MennoSota

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You really don't listen to what people say here so why do you keep writing?
Lamm, I saw what you wrote, read it, and responded. How you react is up to you.
Faith is fueled by facts, not by feelings.
 

Josiah

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At what age do “infants” repent

Please read the opening post and title of the thread.

You have the wrong thread; there is a thread about the Anabsptist invention in the 16th Century about an AGE requirement BUT THIS IS NOT THAT THREAD. Attempts to get the thread closed and trashed failed, it seems now the desire is to hijack it to ANY other topic; meanwhile, over at the thread that IS about AGE, no one can get you to list any Scriptures on Baptism that so much as even mention some AGE, for anything, about anyone... just endless repetitions that the Bible states mystical age of X (you just won't list it) and endless repetitions that we cannot do anything is not clearly illustrated as done in the Bible (such as posting on the internet) and cannot do what is not clearly illustrated as done in the Bible - a rubric you clearly reject and never once actually follow (in anything, not even Baptism). Oh, and the endless claim that every baptism in the BIble was of one over this page of we-won't-tell-you, while proving the clsim is not true. IF - finally - you an show the Bible states this prohibition on Baptism because of AGE - then finally quote that Scripture. BUT NOT HERE.


This thread is for you to list all those Scriptures (and other voices, if you chose) that confirms the Anbaptist/Baptist distinctive dogma that baptism is ONLY a symbol, "an outward symbol of a previous accomplishment by the recipient." An inert, purely symbolic jesture. I listed much that suggests it's not true in post #1.... we are now on page 8, and so far, NOTHING - not one Scripture, not one ANYTHING - has been presented to support the reinvention of Baptism by the Anabaptist in the 16th Century, the distinctive dogma of Baptists, the dogma you and others echo endlessly. If you have nothing - okay, I understand, no problem. MennoSota at least stated that (to his credit) but if you too have nothing, then why are you posting here? If this defining, distinctive Dogma Baptists so powerfully stress has nothing in Scripture (or anywhere else before that Anabaptist wrote stuff such as quoted above), OK. I suspect if any had anything, it would have been stated by now, however.



Thank you.



- Josiah







.
 

Lämmchen

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Lamm, I saw what you wrote, read it, and responded. How you react is up to you.
Faith is fueled by facts, not by feelings.
Did I mention "feelings"? That's pure speculation on your part and I appreciate you don't add things that aren't there. Thank you.
 

MennoSota

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Did I mention "feelings"? That's pure speculation on your part and I appreciate you don't add things that aren't there. Thank you.
So, you had no feelings and you can back up your experience with facts from the Bible?
Where does the Bible say that being water baptized will give you faith and the Holy Spirit?
Second, if it takes the work of water baptism in order to get faith and the Holy Spirit, how is that not salvation by works as well as synergism?
 

zecryphon_nomdiv

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We have gone over this. You misuse scripture in this instance and thus have a bad interpretation.
Read the passage. If you are correct, it brings up multiple theological problems that make salvation by works, not by grace. Do you really believe salvation is by human works and not by God's grace alone?

Acts 2:37-41 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
It is not salvation by works. Repentance is a fruit of faith, not something a person does to gain faith. It is God's will that all be saved, which means that He can choose to use whatever means He has established to save people. God instituted Baptism. He instituted Communion. He divinely inspired the people who wrote down Holy Scripture.

We see from Scripture that Baptism forgives sins and delivers the gift of the Holy Spirit. We see that Communion forgives sins. You deny that these two Sacraments have any worth to the Christian and are mere symbols and have also had the incredible disrespect to write them off as "magical." What is the point of talking to you, when all you want to do is attack other people and not address the points they've raised?
 

Albion

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I am going to just leave this here for all of you to consider.
Hmm. Another lecturer carefully rebutting a proposition that almost no Christian church teaches.
 

MennoSota

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It is not salvation by works. Repentance is a fruit of faith, not something a person does to gain faith. It is God's will that all be saved, which means that He can choose to use whatever means He has established to save people. God instituted Baptism. He instituted Communion. He divinely inspired the people who wrote down Holy Scripture.

We see from Scripture that Baptism forgives sins and delivers the gift of the Holy Spirit. We see that Communion forgives sins. You deny that these two Sacraments have any worth to the Christian and are mere symbols and have also had the incredible disrespect to write them off as "magical." What is the point of talking to you, when all you want to do is attack other people and not address the points they've raised?
Indeed, God chooses whom He wills. God redeems whom He wills. God brings whom He wills to repentance. Baptism not needed for any of it. Therefore, God calls us to obedience in baptism, not because it saves us or forgives sins, but because it expresses to foreigners that we are citizens of God's Kingdom and are no longer citizens of the worldly kingdoms who are in rebellion against God.
 
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