How can an unbeliever please God?

[Josiah]

Repentance is a spiritual act of faith.

It involves 4 aspects:

1. STOPPING whatever it is that displeases God.
2. CONFESSING the wrong to the Holy God.
3. TURNING to God's mercy for forgiveness
4. LOOKING to the Holy Spirit for direction and strength - and walking in the right way.

 

[TurtleHare]

this, it is turning away from not turning to

Nope, nope, nope. It is a turning away and turning to because here is where it says it is in Acts 20:21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

 

[psalms 91]

Nope, nope, nope. It is a turning away and turning to because here is where it says it is in Acts 20:21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

I dont disagree with this but if something is bad and you finally figure that out you can turn from it (repent) without ever turning to God, however, that is what we all strive for is to turn people to Christ

 

[RichWh1]

this, it is turning away from not turning to

metanoia is a change of mind - meta- from , nous mind


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[MoreCoffee]

The Justification thread got so long that I did not want my question to get lost in the mess of things and here we can talk about a thing that was brought up and is important and yet it does not fit with what I was taught. How can an unbeliever please God is my question and it is from that thread where Arsenios said he repented for years as an atheist and that it justified him. How is that even possible?

Does anybody say an UNbeliever pleases God in his UNbelief? I haven't seen it written. But if you ask can a person who is not a believer do good? then the answer is not so hard to give, Romans chapter two verses twelve to sixteen and also in the old testament several people who were not Israelites and are not said to be believers do good. Rahab, Cyrus, even the good Samaritan in the parable do good without being called believers. Ruth did good and became a believer but the good she did started before she came to believe. I am confident that if you search the scriptures you will find many more examples of men and women doing good towards God's people and in other ways without first believing in the God of Israel or in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Repentance is turning from a thing....not towards a thing.

One cannot turn towards GOD without being found of GOD.

one cannot magically go from atheism to theism on a whim. One must be convinced of GOD. This comes after sincere attempted repentance and is of GOD alone, not of the person who just chooses to believe one day.



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The gospel is not merely "repent" but also "and believe the gospel", why "because the kingdom of God is at hand". Repentance is more than sorrow for sins and more than turning away from sins it is to change one's mind and turn towards God for help, mercy, and light by which to see and walk in good works pleasing to God.

 

[Arsenios]

Hebrews 11:6:

But without faith it is impossible to please him : for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Isa 65:1
I am sought of them that asked not for me;
I am found of them that sought me not:
I said, "Behold me, behold me,"
unto a nation that was not called by my name.

Rom 10:20
But Esaias is very bold, and saith,
"I was found of them that sought me not;
I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me."

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Obviously you were not actually an atheist.

You kiddin' me? I was a doctrinal, Ayn Rand Atheist...

I can STILL prove God does not exist...

Heck, I proved it to God!

But I did make a committment to Truth as a 4-5 year old one night...

And forgot doing so until I was almost 40...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Yes, I question this as well. No atheist would believe they have a soul or that they could exorcise something that is written into their gene code by nature itself. An honest and truly thinking atheist would argue that the entire Universe is determined by nature and nature's function. We act as we do because it is programmed by nature for us to act exactly that way.

I was a free will atheist...

A.

 

[Arsenios]

God flatly states the unbeliever CANNOT. "Without faith, it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God." Anything unclear there? One without spiritual life ergo can't do anything spiritual.


Now, theologicans speak of CIVIL righteousness. Luther spoke much of this, appropriately praising this. ALL are capable of doing relative good to one's neighbor.... and being praiseworthy (including by God) for such. These may be acts VOID of faith, the Holy Spirit and justification - but still of value in view of our fellow human beings. I have a Buddhist friend who does MUCH good for others - and what is good is good. Relatively speaking. BEFORE MAN.


But BEFORE GOD, anything "good" to HIM must be from faith..... and must flow from LIFE..... and is empowered and directed by the Holy Spirit. It is impossible for one without spiritual life to do anything spiritual. It is impossible for one without faith to do anything with faith. It is impossible for one to be directed and empowered by the Holy Spirit without the Holy Spirit. Before humans, a DOG can do a good work (and they often do - even saving people from death) but that's not a good work unto God; it is fruitful to man but it is NOT a good work or pleasing unto God. "It is IMPOSSIBLE to please God without faith." For centuries (long before the Reformation) Christians made this distinction between civil and religious righteousness - "good" before man and "good" before God. It is an important distinction.... if for no other reason, it makes Christianity true, that even the Pharisee (who was as good in the civil sense as likely possible) is still a DEAD man needing salvation....



- Josiah




.

This kind of thinking is why I would not abide what I then understood as Christians to even have a conversation with me, so doctrinaire and judgemental was their approach... I was a terror, I say! I would punish them with logical arguments that would destroy their pretense... I won every argument to my own satisfaction, needless to say...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The only possible way an unbeliever can please God would for the unbeliever to become a believer by accepting the sacrifice of Christ and accepting His righteousness.


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SURPRISE!!!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Repentance (turning away from what one's knows is evil/ wrong in their own life) is indeed possible prior to the reception of faith in GOD.

what Arseneos wrote is spot on with my own experience.

No one said they repented from unbelief in GOD as an atheist. Repent means stop or turn away from; not begin to believe in GOD.

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They flat out don't get it!

This conversation is 60 years in the making!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Repentance is not JUST a turning away from sinful things.

It literally means a change of the nous, or mind - Mind - Not merely some thought in the mind, but the mind... The Nous...

It includes turning TO God.

It is a turning away, my friend...
Adam turned away from God and ate the Fruit...
When man turns away from the Fruit...
EVEN IF he has forgitten the Father...
And is denying God...
He has begun his return...
And the Father will come to him...
And will bring him Home...

What are you turning away from if not TO God?

Sin - I had one of the worst...

If you're turning from sin you're turning to something holy.

Then atheists can be holy...

Men without faith cannot do that.

I did...

They can stop sinning...

I couldn't...

but they aren't really turning are they?

Yes and no...

Man attempting to turn, even if he fails, as I did, nevertheless is establishing in his very being the ASKING of God for the healing of his mortal wound from Adam... This is ontological asking, and not merely lip-voice asking...

Without God they can't be holy.

I ran into a lot of people, on both sides of the spiritual divide, as an atheist, who would disagree... I myself only saw myself as a twisted and sick person...

They are still sinful.

Yet they are asking by trying to overcome sins in DEEDS...

And they shall receive...

Without faith in God anything they do is not considered good as has been pointed out a few times here.

That sentiment is why as an atheist I had utter comtempt for almost all the so-called Christians I knew... I saw them as hard-hearted, unloving, and judgemental of what they did not understand...

And here it seems to be a doctrine - If an Atheist does Good, the Good he does is evil because he does not believe in God... And if a Christian Believer does evil, what he does is excused by God and used for Good... See how the true and the false so artfully interweave?

There you have it, my Friend...

And Churches are being sold not to become coffee houses, art galleries, mortuaries, and parking lots...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Nope, nope, nope. It is a turning away and turning to because here is where it says it is in Acts 20:21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

A person doing good can, for instance, get righteously screwed over in doing good and repent from ever doing such good again...

"Turning to God IN Repentance" means that repenting from evil is first, and turning to God comes within that turning away...

The Gospel is "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand..."
BECAUSE the Kingdom is at hand, one must repent...
Why repent?
To GAIN the Kingdom, at the cost of one's life...
IF you are not willing to give your life...
You will not gain the Kingdom...
Not here and now in this life...

If you live a good life, however,
you will be Saved at the Last Judgement...

The Kingdom of God is not THERE and THEN...
In the Gospel of Jesus Christ...
It is HERE and NOW...

Arsenios

 

[TangledWeb]

Hebrews 11
[6]And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him.

Since God gives the gift of faith to those whom he makes alive (Ephesians 2:1-10) it is therefore impossible for an unregenerate person to please God.
That, however, does not mean that God will not use the unregenerate person to accomplish His ordained will. In Habakkuk we read that God raised up wicked Babylon to do His bidding against Judah, God's chosen nation.

I fully agree and Hebrews 11:6 answers the question completely.

 

[Arsenios]

Hebrews 11:6 answers the question completely.

Heb 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God,
because anyone who comes to Him
must believe that He exists and
that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

Rom 10:20
But Esaias is very bold, and saith,
"I was found of them that sought me not;
I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me."

One must keep both eyes open...
Both passages must be affirmed...
One cannot pit God against God...
Repentance and seeking God are not identical...

But repentance without seeking Him can find God...

No small matter...

Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God

So, without the gift of faith FIRST being in place, nothing we do is pleasing to God. It may be to MAN and be of value in relation to MAN, but not God.

And I'd add that without the gift of spiritual life FIRST being in place, we can't do anything spiritual. I have held that it is the Holy Spirit (not each Dead Atheist) is the Lord and GIVER of life.

anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists

Thus Dead Atheists cannot come to Him, cannot repent to HIM, cannot look to Him for forgiveness, cannot look to the Holy Spirit for direction and empowering. Because FIRST they must have faith. And life.

He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

Which as you showed can only be done by one with faith and life.... and that nothing (including seeking) is pleasing to God without faith. This "seeking" is obviously not "the First Step" or "preparation" that is the cause of Justification (making Jesus irrelevant, the Holy Spirit irrelevant, life irrelevant, faith irrelevant, and gifts needless), it is what faith does - for eternity. And yes, ALL that faith does is rewarded by God.

Rom 10:20
But Esaias is very bold, and saith, "I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me."

So much for the Dead Atheist who denies God even exists (and couldn't care less), who denies that Jesus was anything but a mentally ill man..... FIRST repents to God for offending Him with His wise and holy and just Law and looks to Jesus for forgiveness and to the Holy Spirit for direction and empowering - and only AFTER all that is accomplished by the Dead Atheist who has no faith, no life, no Holy Spirit and with an inert God - THEN God enters the picture and rewards the Dead Atheist for his good work (done without faith or life or God) - making Jesus irrelevant.




See post 213. It's the Lutheran (and generally Protestant) view of Justification (narrow) condemned as heresy and anathematized by the RCC for 500 years and counting....



- Josiah

 

[Arsenios]

Rom 10:20
But Esaias is very bold, and saith,
"I was found of them that sought me not;
I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me."

Commentary by Josiah:

So much for the Dead Atheist who denies God even exists (and couldn't care less), who denies that Jesus was anything but a mentally ill man..... FIRST repents to God for offending Him with His wise and holy and just Law and looks to Jesus for forgiveness and to the Holy Spirit for direction and empowering - and only AFTER all that is accomplished by the Dead Atheist who has no faith, no life, no Holy Spirit and with an inert God - THEN God enters the picture and rewards the Dead Atheist for his good work (done without faith or life or God) - making Jesus irrelevant.

Overcoming obsession is a good thing...

So tell me, Josiah -
IF you believe the words of Holy God written above...

How can God be found by those not looking for Him?
How can He be made manifest to them not asking for Him?

It is the atheist who neither seeks not inquires after God...
And I am the atheist who found the God I denied existing...

Yet you do not believe me...
You do not believe Paul...
You do not believe Isaiah...

Yet as an atheist I followed a self-generated path of repentance...
And I found God and I know Him and I walk in Him...

And I STILL confess I have no faith...
I like Thomas am restricted from faith...
I only know God and His Saints...

Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

Rom 10:20
But Esaias is very bold, and saith,
"I was found of them that sought me not;
I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me."

Commentary by Josiah: So much for the Dead Atheist who denies God even exists (and couldn't care less), who denies that Jesus was anything but a mentally ill man..... FIRST repents to God for offending Him with His wise and holy and just Law and looks to Jesus for forgiveness and to the Holy Spirit for direction and empowering - and only AFTER all that is accomplished by the Dead Atheist who has no faith, no life, no Holy Spirit and with an inert God - THEN God enters the picture and rewards the Dead Atheist for his good work (done without faith or life or God) - making Jesus irrelevant.



So tell me, Josiah -

How can God be found by those not looking for Him?

Cannot. God was found by those who were NOT looking for him. Dead Atheists insist that God doesn't exist, that Jesus is either a silly myth or an insane man. They aren't looking for the one who doesn't exist or the insane man. God reveals himself. God comes to us. It's called the Incarnation. The Holy Spirit is the Lord and GIVER of life - not death atheists. Now, there is the "mysterious divine miracle" here (as I've spoken of very often) but it is HIS miracle, not that of dead atheists. It is God who manifest himself to the the dead, not the dead who manifest themselves to the God they deny and reject. It is NOT true that dead atheists are the Lord and Giver of Life (the Holy Spirit being inert), it is NOT true that the dead atheist does something he cannot and never would do - all with a careless, inert God, void of faith, void of ANY affirmation of ANYTHING spiritual, void of the Holy Spirit, void of grace - then God suddenly pops unto the scene and pays him for what he has just done for himself. Repentance is NOT the "first step" before God wakes up and does something, it is not the "preporation" which then empowers God to stop being inert and actually DO something.
How can He be made manifest to them not asking for Him?

And I am the atheist who found the God I denied existing...

The dead cannot find God. Cannot save self. Cannot give life to self. Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. With an inert God, nothing spiritual happens. Friend, the Dead Atheist needs God - God does not need him.

Yet as an atheist I followed a self-generated path of repentance...

So you have claimed.... insisting that one who denies that God even exists therefore (with God sitting up there doing NOTHING, caring about NOTHING, giving NOTHING - totally inert) looks to the God who doesn't exist. And who rejects that God has anything - much less wisdom or authority - cries out to the God who doesn't even exist that he has violated God's holy wise Law (who doesn't exist and which doesn't exist) and looks to Jesus (who is a silly myth or an insane man) for forgiveness (which doesn't exist and he doesn't need) and to the Holy Spirit (which he doesn't have and denies exists ) for direction (which he does not want and denies exists) and empowering (which he denies exists) to lead a Christ-like life (which he regards as insanity and does not seek). Okay. I've just not been able to understand that.

I DO believe that repentance is associated with faith and justification (so much so that justification cannot exist without humility and repentance, normally) and that faith produces MANY things - including repentance, which is a good work worthy of praise and reward because there is faith present and without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. Where I disagree with you is that the Dead Atheist EARNS all this - with an inert God, void of ANY faith or life or Holy Spirit - and God rewards it by THEREFORE ceasing to be totally inert and inactive and uncaring and ungiving.






.

 

[davedajobauk]

There are many answers above that grow complicated with references to the Bible


It is more-simple than searching for an apt text (?)


GOD CREATED EVERYTHING and everything that God made was 'perfect'
(Sinners and Believers ALIKE)
God uses sinners, as LESSONS for believers
God knows-everything, from beginning to end for He, is The Creator, of all-things


By this reasoning, God has planned, that some unbelievers WILL FIND Him

Isaiah 55:11
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

God's will not-mine, be done
:amen: