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Gift of Tongues

psalms 91

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The most convincing and also the most persuasive argument in favour of tongues as they are exercised in Pentecostal and Charismatic meetings would be a video recording of a person speaking in a language that a competent translator understood and the corroborative supporting testimony of several disinterested experts in the language.
Actually that happened with me, a preacher started speaking in toungues and because it sounded like language it was taped and submitted to a college professor who confirmed it was high Hebrew which f you knew this person you would know that they did not possess any knowledge of that language at all, so yes along with my personal experiences it is real. As I said, it is not an unwillingness to discuss but over the years I have found it to be a waste of time and effort with people who do not believe, as you say the best is a personal experience to convince.
 

Josiah

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IF it could be documented that "Tongues" in the Bible was people speaking an actual, existing human language that they did not know..... and that all "tongues" today is people speaking an actual, existing human language that they do not know.... then we could know what "Tongues" was and is. It would be easy: Record the speaking and see what existing human language is being spoken fluently. And no "gift of translation" would be needed today since there are programs for that. But I'm under the impression this is not the case, at least not generally.

IMO, I can't affirm or deny or even comment on "it" without some common understanding of exactly what "it" was and is (and that the two are the same).
 

Albion

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IF it could be documented that "Tongues" in the Bible was people speaking an actual, existing human language that they did not know..... and that all "tongues" today is people speaking an actual, existing human language that they do not know.... then we could know what "Tongues" was and is. It would be easy: Record the speaking and see what existing human language is being spoken fluently. And no "gift of translation" would be needed today since there are programs for that. But I'm under the impression this is not the case, at least not generally.

IMO, I can't affirm or deny or even comment on "it" without some common understanding of exactly what "it" was and is (and that the two are the same).

Exactly so.

Short of that video being presented to the forum, it would be worthwhile simply to have a specific and unambiguous statement given by the advocates of glossolalia as to what this gift consists of.

Is it speaking 1) in a language used by some nationalities but not understood by the speaker, 2) unfamiliar sounds that someone else interprets, 3) sounds that are an "angelic" tongue, or else 4) mere sounds that, nevertheless, are edifying and uplifting in the way that our colleague DHoffman has described his own experience?
 

Josiah

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Exactly so.

Short of that video being presented to the forum, it would be worthwhile simply to have a specific and unambiguous statement given by the advocates of glossolalia as to what this gift consists of.

Is it speaking 1) in a language used by some nationalities but not understood by the speaker, 2) unfamiliar sounds that someone else interprets, 3) sounds that are an "angelic" tongue, or else 4) mere sounds that, nevertheless, are edifying and uplifting in the way that our colleague DHoffman has described his own experience?


I agree. I do NOT - at all - suggest that "it" wasn't... or "isn't." I'm NOT questioning anyone's sincerity or experience. I'm not even questioning whether some personal "good" might result from "it." It's just that I don't know of any way to evaluate "it" or discuss "it" unless "it" is known what "it" was.... and is..... and that they are the same 'it." I don't know where to start.
 

psalms 91

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The way to evaluate it and discuss it is in the spirit, thta is what will tell you what is true, that is what will witness to you, after this post I am done because it seems we ar speaking to a bunch of scientists that want scientific proof for something that is of the spirit. Again it is because either they havent yet experienced it, or else they are deaf to the spirit, I will leave that doubters and naysayers to themselves and pray that at some point they are hit either with the gift themselves or else they hear the spirit speak of this to them.
 

Albion

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The way to evaluate it and discuss it is in the spirit, that is what will tell you what is true, that is what will witness to you, after this post I am done because it seems we are speaking to a bunch of scientists that want scientific proof for something that is of the spirit.
On the contrary, we "scientists" (meaning fellow Christians who are as spiritually-minded as the next person) merely asked for the advocates to IDENTIFY what it is. Among supporters of today's tongues-speaking--and as shown by this very thread--there are a number of different and conflicting versions of that which we, for some unknown reason, must not inquire about.
 

Albion

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MoreCoffee

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I am inclined to read the passages in the new testament that speak of "tongues" as speaking about languages because in Koine Greek when a writer wants to write about foreign languages he uses the expression "foreign tongues", for example, Cretans and Arabians, we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God. Acts 2:11

The main passage that leads to people disputing about angelic tongues (languages?) appears to be
1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

Commentaries over the centuries before the later part of the 20th century say things like the following about this verse and its context
the tongues of men] i.e. the languages of mankind.

and of angels] The Rabbis speak of the languages of angels. It is possible that St Paul may be referring to this notion. But he himself also speaks (2Co 12:4) of hearing ‘unspeakable words which it is not lawful for a man to utter,’ when he was ‘caught up to the third heaven.’

and have not charity] Tyndale (who is followed by Cranmer and the Geneva Bible), love; Vulgate, caritas. The force of this eloquent panegyric on love is impaired, and the agreement between the various writers of the New Testament much obscured, by the rendering charity, instead of love. See note on ch. 1Co 8:1. The aim no doubt of the Vulgate translators was to avoid the sensuous associations which the Latin word amor suggested. But the English word charity has never risen to the height of the Apostle’s argument. At best it does but signify a kindly interest in and forbearance towards others. It is far from suggesting the ardent, active, energetic principle which the Apostle had in view. And though the English word love includes the affection which springs up between persons of different sexes, it is generally understood to denote only the higher and nobler forms of that affection, the lower being stigmatized under the name of passion. Thus it is a suitable equivalent for the Greek word here used, which (see Dean Stanley’s note) owes its existence to the Bible, since it does not appear in Classical Greek, and is first found in the Septuagint translation of the O. T.

sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal] So Wiclif and Tyndale. The Apostle refers here to Psa 150:5, where the Hebrew speaks of ‘cymbals of sound’ and ‘cymbals of clangour,’ and the Septuagint renders almost by the same words as St Paul. Cf. ch. 1Co 14:7, where the difference between an unmeaning noise and real music is spoken of.

(The Cambridge Bible Commentary; Published 1882-1921)​

Commentators since the 1990s are more inclined to allow the possibility that tongues in chapters twelve through fourteen of First Corinthians can mean "ecstatic speech" which many interpret to be sounds that do not constitute speaking in any language either human of angelic.

The matter is still hotly debated but it ought to be noted that a great many Christians claim to speak in tongues today and regard it as an exercise of a spiritual gift from God. It is, in my experience, difficult to get a clear consensus supported description of what happens when speaking in tongues and what "speaking in tongues" means but at the same time is it easy to get agreement from those who practise "speaking in tongues" that it is a gift from God and that many receive it.
 

Imalive

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its praying w your spirit, in a heavenly or earthly language
 

Andrew

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Exactly so.

Short of that video being presented to the forum, it would be worthwhile simply to have a specific and unambiguous statement given by the advocates of glossolalia as to what this gift consists of.

Is it speaking 1) in a language used by some nationalities but not understood by the speaker, 2) unfamiliar sounds that someone else interprets, 3) sounds that are an "angelic" tongue, or else 4) mere sounds that, nevertheless, are edifying and uplifting in the way that our colleague DHoffman has described his own experience?
Paul describes two types of tongues, one as ones own for prayer wishing all would have, and another for communication to foreigners. The first can be used in the church but it has rules and limitations, paul wants them not to be boastful by praying in tongues in the church, it gives one thanks directly to God but does nothing to edify anyone else. That calls for interpretation.
Paul asked that we keep his traditions and to stop no one with the gift from speaking in tongues.

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Andrew

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As for evidence, you will have to put your finger in his wound so to speak. The purpose of this was to draw in non believers into the church. A video can always be dismissed as set up, nothing supernatural can be measured by science, the real faith comes by experience.

Protestants should at least consider taking up Pauls traditions of seeking out spiritual gifts just as some Catholic churches are.

Zephaniah 3:9
For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.
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Albion

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its praying w your spirit, in a heavenly or earthly language

I have a prayer book which has some wonderful prayers, and I also pray without a script, just as if I were in a conversation with Christ or the Father. Am I to believe that none of this counts as being "w my spirit" or is less valuable simply because I know what I'm saying while I'm praying?
 

MoreCoffee

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Praying with one's spirit means praying with one's heart and mind. I think that is the point of saint Paul's discussion about giving thanks with his understanding and with his spirit. The two happen at the same time. One understands what one means because one speaks (or thinks) in the language one knows and what is said is from the heart so it is giving thanks with mind and heart.
What should I do then? I will pray with the spirit, but I will pray with the mind also; I will sing praise with the spirit, but I will sing praise with the mind also. Otherwise, if you say a blessing with the spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say the 'Amen' to your thanksgiving, since the outsider does not know what you are saying? 1 Corinthians 14:15-16​
 
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I have a prayer book which has some wonderful prayers, and I also pray without a script, just as if I were in a conversation with Christ or the Father. Am I to believe that none of this counts as being "w my spirit" or is less valuable simply because I know what I'm saying while I'm praying?

No, but I don't think that's what Paul means with 'praying in the Spirit', because he says your mind doesn't understand it. I'm just explaining what it is, it's speaking directly with your spirit, because our mind isn't perfect and we don't know exactly what to pray, so He helps. Only praying in tongues and putting your mind in the sleep mode is less being in the Spirit I think than praying in English, inspired by Him. Paul said he did both.
 

Albion

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I appreciate your willingness to discuss the matter, but according to 1 Corinthians 14:15-16, which More Coffee quoted for us above, it means the opposite.
 

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I appreciate your willingness to discuss the matter, but according to 1 Corinthians 14:15-16, which More Coffee quoted for us above, it means the opposite.
14:16
Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer, say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying?
________
Here I believe he is saying that praying in tongues is praying in the spirit because an inquirer could not understand him, therefore for the sake of the person with you it would be better not to speak/pray in tongues unless you have an interpreter with you.

Praising God in the spirit is praying in tongues according to scripture...

Anyone disagree?

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Albion

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Nothing in that passage says anything about having an interpreter. In fact, verse 13 says that the one doing the praying/praising ought to be able to explain what he's saying himself. If he cannot, are these really "tongues?" Apparently not. And if he makes something up and offers it as an explanation, that doesn't make them tongues, either.
 

Imalive

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Nothing in that passage says anything about having an interpreter. In fact, verse 13 says that the one doing the praying/praising ought to be able to explain what he's saying himself. If he cannot, are these really "tongues?" Apparently not. And if he makes something up and offers it as an explanation, that doesn't make them tongues, either.

Explain what he's saying? So you take this text as: you think something with your heart like oh Lord bless brother so and so and then you say it with your voice and that is explaining? How is that explaining? It's just saying what you think.
 

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Nothing in that passage says anything about having an interpreter. In fact, verse 13 says that the one doing the praying/praising ought to be able to explain what he's saying himself. If he cannot, are these really "tongues?" Apparently not. And if he makes something up and offers it as an explanation, that doesn't make them tongues, either.
The point Paul is trying to get across to the church of Corinth is that for the purpose of drawing in inquires, praising God in the spirit/speaking tongues in the church will have them think they you are "crazy", therefore for THEIR sake they may be saved through prophesy.
Praising God on your own in tongues is fine and encouraged because you are in the spirit, but to build up the church its is also a way God uses it to benefit the church.

You are asking one thing and just because the word "interpret" was not mentioned in that passage (because the full commentary mentions it over and over again) you instead divert from the fact that he just said that praising God IS praying in the spirit and that praying in the spirit IS speaking in tongues because the inquire WOULD NOT UNDERSTAND THE LANGUAGE HE IS SPEAKING.



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Andrew

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When I pray I pray out loud in English the same as you do. For everyone doesnt have this gift, tongues come and go, just because im not fluent in it does not mean my prayers in english are less or go unheard at all.
Otherwise everyone would have to be blessed with fluent tongues in order to pray which goes against scripture and the Lords method of prayer which was to pray in your closet with choice words in your mother tongue, Paul wished they all speak in tongues, but he knew its not necessary since there are many treasures for believers.

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