Excerpts from Enoch

atpollard · Jun 12, 2021

NathanH83 said:
The book of Mormon was made up by Joseph Smith in the 1800’s, just like the Book of Boba Fett was made up by George Lucas in the 1900’s (or maybe Disney made it up, not sure. Dave Filoni?).

But the Book of Enoch WAS in the hands of the early church, and even found among the Dead Sea Scrolls and therefore used by Jews BEFORE Christ.

So please stop pretending that Enoch is even REMOTELY similar to the Book of Mormon. Just stop it.

And no, you did NOT confirm that Jude wasn’t quoting the book of Enoch. You didn’t prove it. You didn’t even provide any reasonable explanation as to why he’s NOT quoting the book of Enoch.

The prophesy Jude gives us of Enoch is NOT found in the Old Testament ANYWHERE. But it IS found in the book of Enoch.

So no, you haven’t proven anything in that regard.

We will have to disagree on those points.
There was already another entire TOPIC on Jude not “quoting” 1 Enoch.
There is little difference between 1 Enoch (not written by Enoch), the Gospel of Thomas (not written by Thomas) and the Book of Mormon (not written about God). All three are the work of false prophets writing false statements at different times in history. An ancient lie is still a lie.

This topic is about what 1 Enoch actually says and what the Holy Bible actually says that contradicts the errors in 1 Enoch. So far, you only claim that the errors “don’t matter”. To which I suggest that the errors in the Book of Mormon may not matter either, right?

Origen · Jun 12, 2021

NathanH83 said:
The prophesy Jude gives us of Enoch is NOT found in the Old Testament ANYWHERE. But it IS found in the book of Enoch.

A close analysis reveals those quotes have very significant differences.

Ἰδοὺ ἦλθεν κύριος ἐν ἁγίαις μυριάσιν αὐτοῦ ποιῆσαι κρίσιν κατὰ πάντων καὶ ἐλέγξαι πᾶσαν ψυχὴν περὶ πάντων τῶν ἔργων ἀσεβείας αὐτῶν ὧν ἠσέβησαν καὶ περὶ πάντων τῶν σκληρῶν ὧν ἐλάλησαν κατ’ αὐτοῦ ἁμαρτωλοὶ ἀσεβεῖς. (Jude 14-15)

ὅτι ἔρχεται σὺν ταῖς μυριάσιν αὐτοῦ καὶ τοῖς ἁγίοις αὐτοῦ ποιῆσαι κρίσιν κατὰ πάντων καὶ ἀπολέσει πάντας τοὺς ἀσεβεῖς καὶ ἐλέγξει πᾶσαν σάρκα περὶ πάντων ἔργων τῆς ἀσεβείας αὐτῶν ὧν ἠσέβησαν καὶ σκληρῶν ὧν ἐλάλησαν λόγων, καὶ περὶ πάντων ὧν κατελάλησαν κατ’ αὐτοῦ ἁμαρτωλοὶ ἀσεβεῖς. (1 Enoch 1:9)

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NathanH83 · Jun 12, 2021

Origen said:
A close analysis reveals those quotes have very significant differences.

Ἰδοὺ ἦλθεν κύριος ἐν ἁγίαις μυριάσιν αὐτοῦ ποιῆσαι κρίσιν κατὰ πάντων καὶ ἐλέγξαι πᾶσαν ψυχὴν περὶ πάντων τῶν ἔργων ἀσεβείας αὐτῶν ὧν ἠσέβησαν καὶ περὶ πάντων τῶν σκληρῶν ὧν ἐλάλησαν κατ’ αὐτοῦ ἁμαρτωλοὶ ἀσεβεῖς. (Jude 14-15)

ὅτι ἔρχεται σὺν ταῖς μυριάσιν αὐτοῦ καὶ τοῖς ἁγίοις αὐτοῦ ποιῆσαι κρίσιν κατὰ πάντων καὶ ἀπολέσει πάντας τοὺς ἀσεβεῖς καὶ ἐλέγξει πᾶσαν σάρκα περὶ πάντων ἔργων τῆς ἀσεβείας αὐτῶν ὧν ἠσέβησαν καὶ σκληρῶν ὧν ἐλάλησαν λόγων, καὶ περὶ πάντων ὧν κατελάλησαν κατ’ αὐτοῦ ἁμαρτωλοὶ ἀσεβεῖς. (1 Enoch 1:9)

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That’s actually true of a LOT of the quotes that New Testament authors give of Old Testament passages. But it’s still obvious who they’re quoting. Illogical argument.

atpollard · Jun 13, 2021

NathanH83 said:
That’s actually true of a LOT of the quotes that New Testament authors give of Old Testament passages. But it’s still obvious who they’re quoting. Illogical argument.

I don’t think that it is true, perhaps you could list one.
I think the quotes have MINOR differences that suggest the author may have quoted from the GREEK translation rather than the original HEBREW … which is not even close to what one sees in 1 Enoch vs Jude.

Origen · Jun 13, 2021

NathanH83 said:
That’s actually true of a LOT of the quotes that New Testament authors give of Old Testament passages.

Sometimes the N.T. follows the Greek text, sometimes it follows the Hebrew text, and sometime it does not follow either one. We can tell which one the N.T. is following simply by comparing the texts. Your claim is nonsense.

NathanH83 said:
But it’s still obvious who they’re quoting.

Not really. It proves that Jude did not follow the actual quote found in the book of 1 Enoch as his source. It is not hard to tell if one text is following another. Again, your claim is nonsense.

NathanH83 · Jun 13, 2021

Origen said:
Sometimes the N.T. follows the Greek text, sometimes it follows the Hebrew text, and sometime it does not follow either one. We can tell which one the N.T. is following simply by comparing the texts. Your claim is nonsense.

Not really. It proves that Jude did not follow the actual quote found in the book of 1 Enoch as his source. It is not hard to tell if one text is following another. Again, your claim is nonsense.

All you’re showing is slight differences in what Enoch said compared to the way Jude quoted it, which happens often in the New Testament.

But you’re not showing where the Old Testament provides this quote from Enoch. You’re not showing how Jude knew that Enoch said this.

Where did Enoch say this in the Old Testament? Genesis? Where? How did Jude know about it?

You don’t know.

NathanH83 · Jun 13, 2021

Maybe Jude is just a time traveler. Maybe he went back in time and talked with Enoch personally. I wonder if he took a ride in Doc Brown’s DeLorean.

Andrew · Jun 13, 2021

NathanH83 said:
Maybe Jude is just a time traveler. Maybe he went back in time and talked with Enoch personally. I wonder if he took a ride in Doc Brown’s DeLorean.

They say time speeds up if you whirl around the globe in space fast enough

Origen · Jun 14, 2021

NathanH83 said:
All you’re showing is slight differences in what Enoch

You clearly don't know what you are looking at.

Ἰδοὺ ἦλθεν κύριος ἐν ἁγίαις μυριάσιν αὐτοῦ ποιῆσαι κρίσιν κατὰ πάντων καὶ ἐλέγξαι πᾶσαν ψυχὴν περὶ πάντων τῶν ἔργων ἀσεβείας αὐτῶν ὧν ἠσέβησαν καὶ περὶ πάντων τῶν σκληρῶν ὧν ἐλάλησαν κατ’ αὐτοῦ ἁμαρτωλοὶ ἀσεβεῖς. (Jude 14-15)

ὅτι ἔρχεται σὺν ταῖς μυριάσιν αὐτοῦ καὶ τοῖς ἁγίοις αὐτοῦ ποιῆσαι κρίσιν κατὰ πάντων καὶ ἀπολέσει πάντας τοὺς ἀσεβεῖς καὶ ἐλέγξει πᾶσαν σάρκα περὶ πάντων ἔργων τῆς ἀσεβείας αὐτῶν ὧν ἠσέβησαν καὶ σκληρῶν ὧν ἐλάλησαν λόγων, καὶ περὶ πάντων ὧν κατελάλησαν κατ’ αὐτοῦ ἁμαρτωλοὶ ἀσεβεῖς. (1 Enoch 1:9)

NathanH83 said:
But you’re not showing where the Old Testament provides this quote from Enoch.

Since I never claimed it came from the O.T. your point is irrelevant.

NathanH83 said:
You’re not showing how Jude knew that Enoch said this.

Once again your point is irrelevant. My point has nothing to do with that. You claimed Jude's quote comes from the book of 1 Enoch. The evidence does not support your claim.

NathanH83 said:
Where did Enoch say this in the Old Testament? Genesis? Where? How did Jude know about it?

I know where Jude didn't get it and that is from the book of 1 Enoch. That was my only goal.

NathanH83 · Jun 15, 2021

Origen said:
You clearly don't know what you are looking at.

Ἰδοὺ ἦλθεν κύριος ἐν ἁγίαις μυριάσιν αὐτοῦ ποιῆσαι κρίσιν κατὰ πάντων καὶ ἐλέγξαι πᾶσαν ψυχὴν περὶ πάντων τῶν ἔργων ἀσεβείας αὐτῶν ὧν ἠσέβησαν καὶ περὶ πάντων τῶν σκληρῶν ὧν ἐλάλησαν κατ’ αὐτοῦ ἁμαρτωλοὶ ἀσεβεῖς. (Jude 14-15)

ὅτι ἔρχεται σὺν ταῖς μυριάσιν αὐτοῦ καὶ τοῖς ἁγίοις αὐτοῦ ποιῆσαι κρίσιν κατὰ πάντων καὶ ἀπολέσει πάντας τοὺς ἀσεβεῖς καὶ ἐλέγξει πᾶσαν σάρκα περὶ πάντων ἔργων τῆς ἀσεβείας αὐτῶν ὧν ἠσέβησαν καὶ σκληρῶν ὧν ἐλάλησαν λόγων, καὶ περὶ πάντων ὧν κατελάλησαν κατ’ αὐτοῦ ἁμαρτωλοὶ ἀσεβεῖς. (1 Enoch 1:9)

Since I never claimed it came from the O.T. your point is irrelevant.

Once again your point is irrelevant. My point has nothing to do with that. You claimed Jude's quote comes from the book of 1 Enoch. The evidence does not support your claim.

I know where Jude didn't get it and that is from the book of 1 Enoch. That was my only goal.

So you admit that you don’t know.

Must have been a time traveler.

Origen · Jun 15, 2021

NathanH83 said:
So you admit that you don’t know.

As I said above, I know where Jude didn't get it and that is from the book of 1 Enoch.

NathanH83 said:
Must have been a time traveler.

First, I don't need to be a time traveler to know that Jude NEVER mention the book of Enoch. All anyone has to do is read what Jude wrote.

Second, I don't need to be a time traveler to know that a close analysis reveals those quotes have very significant differences.

Ἰδοὺ ἦλθεν κύριος ἐν ἁγίαις μυριάσιν αὐτοῦ ποιῆσαι κρίσιν κατὰ πάντων καὶ ἐλέγξαι πᾶσαν ψυχὴν περὶ πάντων τῶν ἔργων ἀσεβείας αὐτῶν ὧν ἠσέβησαν καὶ περὶ πάντων τῶν σκληρῶν ὧν ἐλάλησαν κατ’ αὐτοῦ ἁμαρτωλοὶ ἀσεβεῖς. (Jude 14-15)

ὅτι ἔρχεται σὺν ταῖς μυριάσιν αὐτοῦ καὶ τοῖς ἁγίοις αὐτοῦ ποιῆσαι κρίσιν κατὰ πάντων καὶ ἀπολέσει πάντας τοὺς ἀσεβεῖς καὶ ἐλέγξει πᾶσαν σάρκα περὶ πάντων ἔργων τῆς ἀσεβείας αὐτῶν ὧν ἠσέβησαν καὶ σκληρῶν ὧν ἐλάλησαν λόγων, καὶ περὶ πάντων ὧν κατελάλησαν κατ’ αὐτοῦ ἁμαρτωλοὶ ἀσεβεῖς. (1 Enoch 1:9)

NathanH83 · Jun 17, 2021

Origen said:
As I said above, I know where Jude didn't get it and that is from the book of 1 Enoch.

First, I don't need to be a time traveler to know that Jude NEVER mention the book of Enoch. All anyone has to do is read what Jude wrote.

Second, I don't need to be a time traveler to know that a close analysis reveals those quotes have very significant differences.

Ἰδοὺ ἦλθεν κύριος ἐν ἁγίαις μυριάσιν αὐτοῦ ποιῆσαι κρίσιν κατὰ πάντων καὶ ἐλέγξαι πᾶσαν ψυχὴν περὶ πάντων τῶν ἔργων ἀσεβείας αὐτῶν ὧν ἠσέβησαν καὶ περὶ πάντων τῶν σκληρῶν ὧν ἐλάλησαν κατ’ αὐτοῦ ἁμαρτωλοὶ ἀσεβεῖς. (Jude 14-15)

ὅτι ἔρχεται σὺν ταῖς μυριάσιν αὐτοῦ καὶ τοῖς ἁγίοις αὐτοῦ ποιῆσαι κρίσιν κατὰ πάντων καὶ ἀπολέσει πάντας τοὺς ἀσεβεῖς καὶ ἐλέγξει πᾶσαν σάρκα περὶ πάντων ἔργων τῆς ἀσεβείας αὐτῶν ὧν ἠσέβησαν καὶ σκληρῶν ὧν ἐλάλησαν λόγων, καὶ περὶ πάντων ὧν κατελάλησαν κατ’ αὐτοῦ ἁμαρτωλοὶ ἀσεβεῖς. (1 Enoch 1:9)

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Isn’t there a possibility that the version of the book of Enoch that Jude owned matched what Jude wrote? And that today’s book of Enoch is slightly different?

Andrew · Jun 18, 2021

NathanH83 said:
Isn’t there a possibility that the version of the book of Enoch that Jude owned matched what Jude wrote? And that today’s book of Enoch is slightly different?

I was beginning to question that but how did Jesus know from scripture that angels cannot marry?

And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Mark 12:24-25

Excerpts from Enoch

atpollard

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Origen

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NathanH83

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atpollard

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Origen

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NathanH83

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NathanH83

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Andrew

Matt 18:15

Origen

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Matt 18:15