Excerpts from Enoch

[Andrew]

I *think* (but am not very familiar with 1 Enoch) that the Angel in 1 Enoch states that angels built the Ark for Noah, so Noah did not “have help” … one place specifically has God commanding that NOAH do it and claims NOAH obeyed, and the other place just as clearly states that God had supernatural beings do the work FOR Noah.

The reports seem directly contradictory and mutually exclusive. If either one is true, then the other must be false. It is like the Christian claim that Christ died on the Cross and the Muslim claim that Christ did not die on the Cross … one must be true and the other false. They cannot be reconciled. God cannot have ordered Noah to do it (and Noah obeyed) and God ordered angels to do it for Noah. Either Noah worked on it or Noah did not. Moses says Noah did and 1 Enoch is reported to say that Noah did not.

Even those defending 1 Enoch have not bothered quoting the actual text to support their position. They just claim that the difference does not matter. Lying angels reporting anti-scriptural information matters to me. That indicates that 1 Enoch is a false witness and is not Holy Scripture.


PS. It does not say “alone”. It does say that Noah built it as God commanded. It does not say that God ordered angels to build an Ark for Noah.

Well of course Noah's testimony is not Enoch's testimony.. Mormons may add Joseph Smiths testimony as an addition to the Gospel after the fact but it doesn't render the Gospel fictitious now does it?

@NathanH83 has pointed out major flaws in the books of Noah

If it is through testimony of Noah that Angels were building his Ark then why would we attribute it to Enoch's testimony?

I agree, angels did not build the ark for and/or in place of Noah.

As for Sirens, Sirach I believe warns of musical enchantments of certain women and not to fall for them, and no wonder, I find the musical awards ceremonies and music videos by pop divas extremely wicked, enchanting, even spellbinding.

 

[Lamb]

@NathanH83 has pointed out major flaws in the books of Noah

The book of Noah was inspired by God. Are you insinuating that it is not God-breathed?

 

[atpollard]

This might be helpful.

Thank you.
I knew.
I was trying to give the advocates of 1 Enoch the benefit if the doubt by allowing them an opportunity to present a translation and context of their choice to support their position.
Then we could discuss EXEGESIS.

The quote from 1 Enoch is quite damning for 1 Enoch.

 

[atpollard]

I agree, angels did not build the ark for and/or in place of Noah.

THAT is the problem with the book called 1 Enoch … it is the story of what an Angel traveling with a man called Enoch says and does. That Angel claims that Noah did not build the ark, angels did. That Angel claims that women change into creatures.

Just like the Book of Mormon, some people want to add 1 Enoch to the Holy Bible as equal to the Gospels and the Letters of Paul. Just like the Book of Mormon, 1 Enoch contains LIES that cannot be reconciled with the TRUTH of God’s Holy Word. Just like the Book of Mormon, 1 Enoch does not belong in the Holy Bible.

That is why I waste time arguing against a book that I care nothing about. It is the Holy Bible that I do care about that I am defending from impurity and false prophets.

 

[NathanH83]

I'm merely sifting through the comparisons among peers.

Genesis says that Noah alone built the ark, just wondering why everyone generally accepts that he had some help.

Exactly. What’s the “big contradiction”.

I can show some very clear, very obvious, irreconcilable contradictions in the book of Jasher, showing that Jasher is a fraud.

But these “problems” with the book of Enoch are really not too difficult. I mean, NOWHERE in Genesis does it say that Noah’s sons helped build the ark. But when you go to the Creation Museum or the Ark Encounter, they’ll show these animatronic statues of Noah’s sons helping with the construction. We ASSUME Noah’s sons would be helping, because, well why not? They’re his sons.

So, if Enoch says angels built the ark too, then maybe that’s true. Maybe it’s not true. Maybe the book of Enoch is a fraud. Or maybe only this section doesn’t belong. I don’t know.

But one thing I do know is that it’s not as big of a contradiction as they’re making it seem.

There’s MUCH bigger contradictions within the text of the Bible itself.

How about the 3 missing kings from the genealogy of Matthew 1?

How about the extra Cainan in Luke 3:36, which is not found in Genesis 10 and 11?

How about the way Judas Iscariot died in Acts, compared to the way the gospels say that he died?

How about 2 Samuel saying that David pretended madness before king Achish, but Psalms says he pretended madness before king Abimelech? Which king was it?

There’s all kinds of supposed “contradictions” in the Bible that atheists like to poke fun at. And I believe there are reasonable answers to them. It doesn’t destroy my faith in the Bible just because of a few difficulties.

These difficulties in Enoch really don’t seem to be all that big of a deal. At least, not compared to other difficulties in the Bible itself.

They’re MAKING them a big deal (as they do the Apocrypha) because they’ve ALREADY rejected Enoch as scripture.

They’re not open-minded that maybe Jude accepted this book, and maybe the book of Enoch we have today is at least somewhat similar to what Jude had. They’re not open to that. They’ve already made up their mind, and are just looking for excuses to reject it.

They bring up “sirens” in the book of Enoch and scoff. Ok? But what about when the LXX mentions sirens in Isaiah, Micah, and Job? Are we going to scoff at the Bible used by the early church for the first 400 years of history?

You see, these are not fair comparisons.

 

[NathanH83]

Thank you.
I knew.
I was trying to give the advocates of 1 Enoch the benefit if the doubt by allowing them an opportunity to present a translation and context of their choice to support their position.
Then we could discuss EXEGESIS.

The quote from 1 Enoch is quite damning for 1 Enoch.

Why can’t you understand that the REASON I’m interested in the book of Enoch (as many others are interested) is because Jude quotes from it?

Could the copy in the possession of Jude maybe have worded this passage differently? Or maybe his copy omitted it entirely? Or maybe there’s a perfectly reasonable explanation for it?

Whatever Jude was quoting from, I get the impression that Jude was convinced that this is scripture, and that his audience accepted it as such.

He speaks of angels being chained in the lower parts of the earth due to their sin. Where does the Bible speak of this? Nowhere in the Old Testament! Peter mentions it. Jude mentions it. Where are they getting it from?

Well, Enoch tells this story of angels being chained under the earth due to their sin. It’s in the book of Enoch WHICH JUDE QUOTED.

Don’t you see that my FAITH in the NEW TESTAMENT is what causes me to find interest in this book?

I know that there are at least SOME corruptions in it. Just look at the 3,000 ells versus the 300 cubits. Obviously they can’t both be right. Maybe the 300 cubits is right. Seems like a stretch, but maybe.

So some corruptions crept into some copies of the text (just like with the Masoretic’s corruptions). But what did the ORIGINAL say -the version that Jude was reading when he quoted it? That’s what I’m interested in. Why aren’t you???

 

[Origen]

Why can’t you understand that the REASON I’m interested in the book of Enoch (as many others are interested) is because Jude quotes from it?

Jude NEVER mentions the BOOK of Enoch, and no matter how many time you falsely say he does won't make it true.

 

[Origen]

I find this one interesting.

Excerpt Four
Enoch 40:8-10
After that I asked the angel of peace who went with me, who showed me everything that is hidden: ‘Who are these four presences which I have seen and whose words I have heard and written down?’ And he said to me: ‘This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.’

Also:
"in charge of the repentance (leading) to the hope of those who inherit eternal life"
See The Book of Enoch - A New Edition in the Light of the Aramaic Dead Sea Fragments, Michael A. Knibb, p. 128

According to this excerpt this "repentance" which leads to "eternal life" is Phanuel responsibility.

 

[Andrew]

The book of Noah was inspired by God. Are you insinuating that it is not God-breathed?

The book of Noah in Enoch, not in Genesis

 

[Lamb]

The book of Noah in Enoch, not in Genesis

I would trust Genesis. It's God-Breathed.

 

[atpollard]

Why can’t you understand that the REASON I’m interested in the book of Enoch (as many others are interested) is because Jude quotes from it?

We already established that Jude did not quote from it. At best, Jude may have made a reference to it. All Jude did with certainty was to establish a prophecy to the biblical person “Enoch” that the book 1 Enoch may have misquoted.

That is anything but a ringing endorsement for reading about how women change into something or Noah is handed a finished Ark by God’s boatbuilding angels. The Book of Mormon may contain a single statement of truth misquoted from Scripture. Should we start reading the Book of Mormon to learn about how we can become gods just like Jesus did?

 

[NathanH83]

The book of Noah was inspired by God. Are you insinuating that it is not God-breathed?

I think he’s talking about the Noah Fragment. It’s like, chapter 107 or something like that? It said that Noah was born an albino. It was apparently some Fragment that wasn’t in the original.

Anyway, it seems to suggest that Enoch was alive (on Earth) the same time as Noah, which mathematically isn’t possible, in either the Septuagint or Masoretic. Neither one allows for their lives to overlap. Enoch was taken away before Noah’s birth.

Also the story sounds pretty ridiculous, like beams of light coming out of Noah’s eyes when he was born. Like really? But mainly the mathematical problem. I doubt that Fragment was in the original.

 

[atpollard]

Exactly. What’s the “big contradiction”.

Genesis says God commanded Noah to build an ark and Noah obeyed. So with or without help, the Bible says that Noah DID WORK ON THE ARK. The Angel in 1 Enoch specifically stated that angels were already building the Ark when God warned Noah about the flood and would deliver Noah to the finished ark when it was ready … 1 Enoch states that God NEVER commanded Noah to “build” an ark and Noah had no opportunity to help build the ark.

Setting aside the simple fact that the two accounts directly contradict one another … the story of Noah and the Ark is a foreshadowing of SALVATION that is mentioned by the Apostles in the New Testament. Under the Biblical (Genesis) story of Noah, it is the grace of God that chooses Noah, and it is the response of Noah to build the Ark in faith (the evidence of things not seen) that saves himself and all of humanity (the 8 chosen people out of the masses that perish). This supports both the monergistic view of salvation is an act of God to which we respond in faith by obedience and the synergistic view that God calls men to salvation and we choose to cooperate and are saved by both the call of God and the choice of men.

The story of 1 Enoch, in contrast, presents a different foreshadowing of salvation. God saves whom God chooses to save with no action required on the part of the saved. While this negates synergism (God and man cooperation) and can support Monergism, it actually presents HYPERCALVINISM as the answer to salvation. There is no point in warning anyone because God has already determined exactly whom He will save and destroy and we are powerless bystanders to the whole process. God neither needs nor desires our participation.

THAT is why it is such a big deal.

 

[atpollard]

I find this one interesting.

Excerpt Four
Enoch 40:8-10
After that I asked the angel of peace who went with me, who showed me everything that is hidden: ‘Who are these four presences which I have seen and whose words I have heard and written down?’ And he said to me: ‘This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.’

Also:
"in charge of the repentance (leading) to the hope of those who inherit eternal life"
See The Book of Enoch - A New Edition in the Light of the Aramaic Dead Sea Fragments, Michael A. Knibb, p. 128

According to this excerpt this "repentance" which leads to "eternal life" is Phanuel responsibility.

Michael the “merciful and long-suffering”

• [Dan 10:13, 21 NASB95]
• 13 "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia. ...
• 21 "However, I will tell you what is inscribed in the writing of truth. Yet there is no one who stands firmly with me against these [forces] except Michael your prince.
• [Dan 12:1 NASB95] 1 "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands [guard] over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
• [Jde 1:9 NASB95] 9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
• [Rev 12:7 NASB95] 7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war,

Gabriel is “set over all powers”

• [Dan 8:16 NASB95] 16 And I heard the voice of a man between [the banks of] Ulai, and he called out and said, "Gabriel, give this [man] an understanding of the vision."
• [Dan 9:21 NASB95] 21 while I was still speaking in prayer, then the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision previously, came to me in [my] extreme weariness about the time of the evening offering.
• [Luk 1:19, 26 NASB95] 19 The angel answered and said to him, "I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news. ... 26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth,

Do they sound like the same people?

 

[Andrew]

I would trust Genesis. It's God-Breathed.

I am saying that I DO trust Genesis but not the so called "book of Noah" that's found IN the book of Enoch. I think you are misunderstanding me

 

[Lamb]

I am saying that I DO trust Genesis but not the so called "book of Noah" that's found IN the book of Enoch. I think you are misunderstanding me

Gotcha.

 

[Andrew]

I would trust Genesis. It's God-Breathed.

I am talking about this book found in the book of Enoch not being inspired

 

[Lamb]

I am talking about this book found in the book of Enoch not being inspired

Yeah, I misunderstood. Not sure why I thought you were talking about Genesis.

 

[NathanH83]

I am talking about this book found in the book of Enoch not being inspired

I trust in the Book of Boba Fett.

 

[NathanH83]

We already established that Jude did not quote from it. At best, Jude may have made a reference to it. All Jude did with certainty was to establish a prophecy to the biblical person “Enoch” that the book 1 Enoch may have misquoted.

That is anything but a ringing endorsement for reading about how women change into something or Noah is handed a finished Ark by God’s boatbuilding angels. The Book of Mormon may contain a single statement of truth misquoted from Scripture. Should we start reading the Book of Mormon to learn about how we can become gods just like Jesus did?

The book of Mormon was made up by Joseph Smith in the 1800’s, just like the Book of Boba Fett was made up by George Lucas in the 1900’s (or maybe Disney made it up, not sure. Dave Filoni?).

But the Book of Enoch WAS in the hands of the early church, and even found among the Dead Sea Scrolls and therefore used by Jews BEFORE Christ.

So please stop pretending that Enoch is even REMOTELY similar to the Book of Mormon. Just stop it.

And no, you did NOT confirm that Jude wasn’t quoting the book of Enoch. You didn’t prove it. You didn’t even provide any reasonable explanation as to why he’s NOT quoting the book of Enoch.

The prophesy Jude gives us of Enoch is NOT found in the Old Testament ANYWHERE. But it IS found in the book of Enoch.

So no, you haven’t proven anything in that regard.