Excerpts from Enoch

[Origen]

You said the Greek one says 3,000 cubits, and the Ethiopian one says 300 ells. It’s actually the inverse.

I have the Greek text in front of me which says otherwise. You don't understand what you are reading. Here is the Greek text.

αἱ δὲ ἐν γαστρὶ λαβοῦσαι ἐτέκοσαν γίγαντας μεγάλους ἐκ πηχῶν τρισχιλίων

As anyone can see the word three thousand is found in the Greek text of 1 Enoch 7:2 as this scholarly lexicon confirms.

See BDAG pg. 1016.

Whatever the case, I’ve heard that there is a Greek version of Enoch that doesn’t contain either of these measurements. So I’m not so sure it even was in the original.

As I pointed out above, the manuscript evidence does not support your claim.

 

[Origen]

Nickelsburg/Vanderkam translates verse 2 from a Greek text which says nothing about the height of the giants.

Perhaps you should check your source's references before you post their misleading claims. I immediately saw the error.

Nickelsburg clearly states on page 185:

"G [i.e. the Greek] and E [i.e. the Ethiopic] specify their height as 3,000 and 300 cubits, respectively."

respectively - separately or individually and in the order already mentioned (used when enumerating two or more items or facts that refer back to a previous statement).

This same fact is also confirmed by Dr. Michael S. Heiser where he states exactly the same thing on pages 75-76 (See A Companion to the Book of Enoch: A Reader's Commentary, Vol I: The Book of the Watchers.

By the way both these scholars confirm what I said about the Greek being 3000 and the Ethiopic being 300.

Your source also mentions Vanderkam and gets that wrong as well.

Notice this work was done by Dr. Michael Black with consultation from Vanderkam. Now this is their translation of 1 Enoch 7:2 .



The site you posted is both misleading and dishonest about its sources.

 

[NathanH83]

Moses (who wrote Genesis) and WHOEVER (but not Enoch) wrote 1 Enoch stated completely opposite and mutually contradictory accounts of the construction of Noah’s Ark.

• Moses claims Noah and his family built it (with no outside help)
• 1 Enoch claims angels built it for Noah (with no outside help).

Since BOTH cannot be true and GENESIS has been affirmed beyond any shred of doubt, it is obvious to any OBJECTIVE reader which account MUST BE INCORRECT.

That is my argument without any subtle sarcasm or humor.

If only you could quote the verses that specifically say “with no outside help.”

I honestly don’t see a big contradiction here. If this is really the best evidence against the book of Enoch, then that’s not really substantial.

 

[NathanH83]

Untrue! Perhaps you should check your source's references before you post their misinformation. I immediately saw an error.

Nickelsburg do no such thing. He never made such a claim. In fact he state on page 185:

"G [i.e. the Greek] and E [i.e. the Ethiopic] specify their height as 3,000 and 300 cubits, respectively."

respectively - separately or individually and in the order already mentioned (used when enumerating two or more items or facts that refer back to a previous statement).

This same fact is also confirmed by Dr. Michael S. Heiser where he states exactly the same thing on pages 75-76 (See A Companion to the Book of Enoch: A Reader's Commentary, Vol I: The Book of the Watchers.

By the way both these scholars confirm what I said about the Greek being 3000 and the Ethiopic being 300.

Your source also mentions Vanderkam and gets that wrong as well.
View attachment 1516
Notice this work was done by Dr. Michael Black with consultation from Vanderkam. Now this is their translation of 1 Enoch 7:2 .


View attachment 1519
The site you posted is both misleading and dishonest about its sources.

I don’t know, man.
I have an app on my phone that says 300 cubits. And then I have a physical book titled “The Books of the Ethiopian Bible” and it says 3,000 ells. So I’m not sure where you’re getting your 3,000 cubits translation.

I wonder if it’s ridiculous for a giant to be 300 cubits. The length of Noah’s ark is 300 cubits. I’ve been to Noah’s Ark in Kentucky (the Ark Encounter) and it’s pretty crazy thinking a giants could be the height of the Ark’s length.

But that’s definitely not taller than that skyscraper in the middle east that you were talking about.

 

[Origen]

I don’t know, man.

Thank you.

 

[atpollard]

If only you could quote the verses that specifically say “with no outside help.”

THE WORD OF GOD

Genesis 6:13-22 [NKJV]​

13 And God said to Noah, "The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I will destroy them with the earth. 14 "Make yourself an ark of gopherwood; make rooms in the ark, and cover it inside and outside with pitch. 15 "And this is how you shall make it: The length of the ark [shall be] three hundred cubits, its width fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits. 16 "You shall make a window for the ark, and you shall finish it to a cubit from above; and set the door of the ark in its side. You shall make it [with] lower, second, and third [decks]. 17 "And behold, I Myself am bringing floodwaters on the earth, to destroy from under heaven all flesh in which [is] the breath of life; everything that [is] on the earth shall die. 18 "But I will establish My covenant with you; and you shall go into the ark--you, your sons, your wife, and your sons' wives with you. 19 "And of every living thing of all flesh you shall bring two of every [sort] into the ark, to keep [them] alive with you; they shall be male and female. 20 "Of the birds after their kind, of animals after their kind, and of every creeping thing of the earth after its kind, two of every [kind] will come to you to keep [them] alive. 21 "And you shall take for yourself of all food that is eaten, and you shall gather [it] to yourself; and it shall be food for you and for them." 22 Thus Noah did; according to all that God commanded him, so he did.​

I will allow YOU to quote from “not the word of God” and then we can discuss semantics.
I claim that scripture, the Word of God, written by Moses in the Book of Genesis is completely clear and unambiguous in its statements. Does 1 Enoch pass the “non-contradiction” test with the established Word of God? That is a criteria required for every book added to scripture. God expounds with additional information, but God does not change his mind and God‘s word does not lie.

 

[atpollard]

I honestly don’t see a big contradiction here. If this is really the best evidence against the book of Enoch, then that’s not really substantial.

That is not the “Best Evidence” that just happens to be an evidence that involves no arguments about mythical creatures or interpretations.

When did Enoch “die”?
When was the Flood?

How did an Angel come to talk to Enoch about Noah and the Flood?
How was the book of Enoch preserved through the Flood?
Why did Moses not include the Book of Enoch in the Sexta-teuch (Six Books) instead of the Pentateuch (Five Books)?
Who DID write down 1 Enoch and when?

The fact that it first shows up a few millennia later in a Greek translation raises more questions than it answers.
It is a book of speculation piled on speculation about its origin, so the internal textual criticism must be examined carefully and with a skeptical eye. God had many opportunities with many prophets to claim authorship of a book predating the birth of Moses, but NEVER DID.

 

[Andrew]

If Enoch was written before Genesis (which if so, makes perfect sense) then the books of Moses simply remains silent on many details (considering the book of Enoch is authentic)... Did Noah build the ark all by himself without a helping hand?
Just throwing that out there

 

[NathanH83]

Thank you.

Well, why does the iPhone app say 300 cubits? Are they translating from a different Greek text or what? You don’t seem to know either.

 

[NathanH83]

THE WORD OF GOD

Genesis 6:13-22 [NKJV]​

13 And God said to Noah, "The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I will destroy them with the earth. 14 "Make yourself an ark of gopherwood; make rooms in the ark, and cover it inside and outside with pitch. 15 "And this is how you shall make it: The length of the ark [shall be] three hundred cubits, its width fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits. 16 "You shall make a window for the ark, and you shall finish it to a cubit from above; and set the door of the ark in its side. You shall make it [with] lower, second, and third [decks]. 17 "And behold, I Myself am bringing floodwaters on the earth, to destroy from under heaven all flesh in which [is] the breath of life; everything that [is] on the earth shall die. 18 "But I will establish My covenant with you; and you shall go into the ark--you, your sons, your wife, and your sons' wives with you. 19 "And of every living thing of all flesh you shall bring two of every [sort] into the ark, to keep [them] alive with you; they shall be male and female. 20 "Of the birds after their kind, of animals after their kind, and of every creeping thing of the earth after its kind, two of every [kind] will come to you to keep [them] alive. 21 "And you shall take for yourself of all food that is eaten, and you shall gather [it] to yourself; and it shall be food for you and for them." 22 Thus Noah did; according to all that God commanded him, so he did.​

I will allow YOU to quote from “not the word of God” and then we can discuss semantics.
I claim that scripture, the Word of God, written by Moses in the Book of Genesis is completely clear and unambiguous in its statements. Does 1 Enoch pass the “non-contradiction” test with the established Word of God? That is a criteria required for every book added to scripture. God expounds with additional information, but God does not change his mind and God‘s word does not lie.

Are you seriously considering your logic here?

Oh, ok. So the Bible says that Noah Built the ark all by himself with no outside help.

Ok. Sooooooo….. his sons didn’t help???

There’s no possibility of him hiring laborers to chop down trees?

Like, really? Is this really the logical path you want to follow?

Did Answers in Genesis build the Ark in Kentucky? Or did the Amish build it? Or was it a construction company?

Uh, the answer is ALL of them. They hired construction workers. They hired Amish.

I mean seriously. Why is it so impossible that God might have wanted to send some of his angels for Noah and his 3 sons to build the largest wooden boat ever constructed by man?

I just don’t see what the big contradiction is.

Hey, maybe this part of the Book of Enoch is just made up. Maybe it wasn’t in the original. But should we really just jump to that conclusion based on some real shoddy logic and half-baked reasoning?

 

[NathanH83]

If Enoch was written before Genesis (which if so, makes perfect sense) then the books of Moses simply remains silent on many details (considering the book of Enoch is authentic)... Did Noah build the ark all by himself without a helping hand?
Just throwing that out there

Also…

Moses wrote Genesis.

WHERE DID HE GET HIS INFORMATION?

The way that Moses writes Genesis makes it sound like his audience is already familiar with the story of Enoch. He mentions Enoch and the angels marrying women in a really brief way, as if he doesn’t feel the need to expound to heavily on it because his audience already knows what he’s talking about.

It sounds to me that Genesis was written to a people who already knew about the book of Enoch.

And besides, WHERE DID MOSES GET HIS INFORMATION?

I just don’t understand how people cannot think about the fact that, logically, Moses had to get this information from a prior historical source.

 

[Andrew]

Also…

Moses wrote Genesis.

WHERE DID HE GET HIS INFORMATION?

The way that Moses writes Genesis makes it sound like his audience is already familiar with the story of Enoch. He mentions Enoch and the angels marrying women in a really brief way, as if he doesn’t feel the need to expound to heavily on it because his audience already knows what he’s talking about.

It sounds to me that Genesis was written to a people who already knew about the book of Enoch.

And besides, WHERE DID MOSES GET HIS INFORMATION?

I just don’t understand how people cannot think about the fact that, logically, Moses had to get this information from a prior historical source.

I believe a lot of what Moses wrote was either by oral tradition or records left in Egypt by Joseph and when concerning future events he got it from God.

Genealogy and ages could easily have been passed down but I believe Joseph wrote them down, how is it that Moses became so acquainted with "his people" if writings before him were obsolete?

Even Moses was added onto, because his death is accounted in the books attributed to his authorship.

Enoch was likewise written down, but what we have today is well below 100% discernable as genuine which is probably why it remained in obscurity the way it has.

Jude was Jewish, he quotes Enoch, and we are kind of up in arms about it these days, I just can't find much to work with on this one.

You showed that the genealogy doesn't match with either the Hebrew or the LXX, for all we know it was "too sacred" to be loosed and was deliberately distorted, even to the point where the Septuagint wouldn't embrace it.

It's a mystery that's for sure!

Even Esdras was told to keep some books hidden

 

[atpollard]

Are you seriously considering your logic here?

Oh, ok. So the Bible says that Noah Built the ark all by himself with no outside help.

Ok. Sooooooo….. his sons didn’t help???

There’s no possibility of him hiring laborers to chop down trees?

Like, really? Is this really the logical path you want to follow?

Did Answers in Genesis build the Ark in Kentucky? Or did the Amish build it? Or was it a construction company?

Uh, the answer is ALL of them. They hired construction workers. They hired Amish.

I mean seriously. Why is it so impossible that God might have wanted to send some of his angels for Noah and his 3 sons to build the largest wooden boat ever constructed by man?

I just don’t see what the big contradiction is.

Hey, maybe this part of the Book of Enoch is just made up. Maybe it wasn’t in the original. But should we really just jump to that conclusion based on some real shoddy logic and half-baked reasoning?

Sorry, I can’t discuss the part of the Book of 1 Enoch that you didn’t bother to quote.
I presented EXACTLY what Moses wrote in the Book of Genesis and it clearly states that God commanded Noah to build the Ark and Noah did as God commanded. That means that whoever else helped, or did not help, Noah built the Ark.

Does 1 Enoch agree with Genesis that Noah built the Ark?

You are working hard, but you are not addressing the only question that matters.

 

[Andrew]

Sorry, I can’t discuss the part of the Book of 1 Enoch that you didn’t bother to quote.
I presented EXACTLY what Moses wrote in the Book of Genesis and it clearly states that God commanded Noah to build the Ark and Noah did as God commanded. That means that whoever else helped, or did not help, Noah built the Ark.

Does 1 Enoch agree with Genesis that Noah built the Ark?

You are working hard, but you are not addressing the only question that matters.

Did Noah's family help build the ark?

 

[atpollard]

Moses wrote Genesis.

WHERE DID HE GET HIS INFORMATION?

Exodus 33:7-11 [NKJV]

7 Moses took his tent and pitched it outside the camp, far from the camp, and called it the tabernacle of meeting. And it came to pass [that] everyone who sought the LORD went out to the tabernacle of meeting which [was] outside the camp. 8 So it was, whenever Moses went out to the tabernacle, [that] all the people rose, and each man stood [at] his tent door and watched Moses until he had gone into the tabernacle. 9 And it came to pass, when Moses entered the tabernacle, that the pillar of cloud descended and stood [at] the door of the tabernacle, and [the LORD] talked with Moses. 10 All the people saw the pillar of cloud standing [at] the tabernacle door, and all the people rose and worshiped, each man [in] his tent door. 11 So the LORD spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. And he would return to the camp, but his servant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, did not depart from the tabernacle.​

 

[atpollard]

Did Noah's family help build the ark?

Irrelevant to the truth or false nature of 1 Enoch.
What does 1 Enoch say and does it agree with what God revealed to Moses?

(are you attempting to argue that Genesis is not Scripture?)

 

[Andrew]

Irrelevant to the truth or false nature of 1 Enoch.
What does 1 Enoch say and does it agree with what God revealed to Moses?

(are you attempting to argue that Genesis is not Scripture?)

I'm merely sifting through the comparisons among peers.

Genesis says that Noah alone built the ark, just wondering why everyone generally accepts that he had some help.

 

[atpollard]

I'm merely sifting through the comparisons among peers.

Genesis says that Noah alone built the ark, just wondering why everyone generally accepts that he had some help.

I *think* (but am not very familiar with 1 Enoch) that the Angel in 1 Enoch states that angels built the Ark for Noah, so Noah did not “have help” … one place specifically has God commanding that NOAH do it and claims NOAH obeyed, and the other place just as clearly states that God had supernatural beings do the work FOR Noah.

The reports seem directly contradictory and mutually exclusive. If either one is true, then the other must be false. It is like the Christian claim that Christ died on the Cross and the Muslim claim that Christ did not die on the Cross … one must be true and the other false. They cannot be reconciled. God cannot have ordered Noah to do it (and Noah obeyed) and God ordered angels to do it for Noah. Either Noah worked on it or Noah did not. Moses says Noah did and 1 Enoch is reported to say that Noah did not.

Even those defending 1 Enoch have not bothered quoting the actual text to support their position. They just claim that the difference does not matter. Lying angels reporting anti-scriptural information matters to me. That indicates that 1 Enoch is a false witness and is not Holy Scripture.


PS. It does not say “alone”. It does say that Noah built it as God commanded. It does not say that God ordered angels to build an Ark for Noah.

 

[Origen]

I *think* (but am not very familiar with 1 Enoch) that the Angel in 1 Enoch states that angels built the Ark for Noah, so Noah did not “have help” … one place specifically has God commanding that NOAH do it and claims NOAH obeyed, and the other place just as clearly states that God had supernatural beings do the work FOR Noah.

This might be helpful.

1 Enoch 67:1-2
"And in those days the word of God came unto me, and He said unto me: ‘Noah, thy lot has come up before Me, a lot without blame, a lot of love and uprightness. And now the angels are making a wooden (building), and when they have completed that task..."
See The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, volume 2, R. H. Charles

According to the context (see above) when the word of the Lord came to Noah, God stated; "the angels are making with wooded (structure), and when the angels have completed that task."

First, The verb phase "are making" is a progressive present tense indicating ongoing continuing action. This means the action was already taking place when the word of the Lord came to Noah. Thus Noah could not have had a part in the work when he was only just then finding out about it at that point in time.

Second, note the phrase "when they [i.e. the angels] have completed that task." This passage gives no indication that anyone other than angels would be responsible for finishing the ark.

 

[Origen]

You don’t seem to know either.

O ye of little faith