Election

[popsthebuilder]

Nope. You must hate the God revealed in the Bible if you think God's election of humans makes him not knowing, not all powerful and not merciful.
A different subject that you can discuss is God's justice. If fits well with His election. Perhaps you don't want God to be just.

Not at all friend.

I believe the elect have a purpose; which is to bring all to GOD through Christ. Make ready the Way of the LORD. I would like to see scripture on the subject.

The Bible says GOD is merciful and all knowing.

That, and what you conclude about the whole of those unelected cannot both be truth.

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[popsthebuilder]

Nope. You must hate the God revealed in the Bible if you think God's election of humans makes him not knowing, not all powerful and not merciful.
A different subject that you can discuss is God's justice. If fits well with His election. Perhaps you don't want God to be just.

On the contrary; GOD is just and all knowing and the Creator of all existence who knowingly gave us all power and potential we have. So go ahead and explain how pretty much all life being tortured forever for doing what GOD "caused" them to do is just in any way.

And to be clear; my understanding of the Bible is different and separate from yours; so please do not claim that I make any remark contrary to scripture without proof please. Our different understandings or the lack there of, doesn't mean we do not agree with scripture; just that we don't agree with one another's "understanding" of scripture.

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[Albion]

Not at all friend.

I believe the elect have a purpose; which is to bring all to GOD through Christ. Make ready the Way of the LORD.

that sounds as though you think the elect are chosen for a special task, quite independent of whether or not they have been chosen for salvation. But the Bible speaks more definitely about the latter than about the former perspective. See for instance, John 10:28-30

28”I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

 

[MennoSota]

On the contrary; GOD is just and all knowing and the Creator of all existence who knowingly gave us all power and potential we have. So go ahead and explain how pretty much all life being tortured forever for doing what GOD "caused" them to do is just in any way.

Your comprehension seems weak. Never once is God the cause of sin. God never caused Adam to corrupt the human condition. The problem is not with God, but with your insistence upon blaming God for your corrupt nature.

And to be clear; my understanding of the Bible is different and separate from yours; so please do not claim that I make any remark contrary to scripture without proof please. Our different understandings or the lack there of, doesn't mean we do not agree with scripture; just that we don't agree with one another's "understanding" of scripture.

To be clear, your understanding has no solid support in the Bible. You rail against election and against God's Sovereignty, yet you cannot support your position with scripture.
You have created a role for the elect that is strange and not supportable. You claim that God elected people to do the evangelism so that others could choose. That theory is simply put: bizarre and wrong.
But...prove your position with scripture.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Your comprehension seems weak. Never once is God the cause of sin. God never caused Adam to corrupt the human condition. The problem is not with God, but with your insistence upon blaming God for your corrupt nature.

To be clear, your understanding has no solid support in the Bible. You rail against election and against God's Sovereignty, yet you cannot support your position with scripture.
You have created a role for the elect that is strange and not supportable. You claim that God elected people to do the evangelism so that others could choose. That theory is simply put: bizarre and wrong.
But...prove your position with scripture.

I don't rail against election.

I don't think only 144,000 people out of all people ever will be the only ones saved. If you do then how is GOD just or merciful to you?

Ephesians 1: 3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has crowned us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms in Christ; 4. even as, in His love, He chose us as His own in Christ before the creation of the world, that we might be holy and without blemish in His presence. 5. For He pre-destined us to be adopted by Himself as sons through Jesus Christ--such being His gracious will and pleasure-- 6. to the praise of the splendour of His grace with which He has enriched us in the beloved One. 7. It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, 8. the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, 9. when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose 10. for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. 11. In Him we Jews have been made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will, 12. so that we should be devoted to the extolling of His glorious attributes--we who were the first to fix our hopes on Christ. 13. And in Him you Gentiles also, after listening to the Message of the truth, the Good News of your salvation--having believed in Him--were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit; 22. God has put all things under His feet, and has appointed Him universal and supreme Head of the Church, which is His Body, 23. the completeness of Him who everywhere fills the universe with Himself.

(So it is for the elect to carry out the will of GOD. and what is the will of GOD for all HIS creation?)
1 Timothy 2: 1. I exhort then, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings be offered on behalf of all men; 2. including kings and all who are in high station, in order that we may live peaceful and tranquil lives with all godliness and gravity. 3. This is right, and is pleasing in the sight of God our Saviour, 4. who is willing for all mankind to be saved and come to a full knowledge of the truth. 6. who gave Himself as the redemption price for all--a fact testified to at its own appointed time,

(Your turn)


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[MennoSota]

I don't rail against election.

I don't think only 144,000 people out of all people ever will be the only ones saved. If you do then how is GOD just or merciful to you?

I have already explained this in the beginning of this thread. Are humans, by nature, sinful? Have all fallen short of the glory of God? Is the wages of sin, death? You know the answer. You know the law requires justice to be paid for law breaking. Is God just or is He unjust? Is God required to pardon all humanity? If so, please present your universalism.

Ephesians 1: 3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has crowned us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms in Christ; 4. even as, in His love, He chose us as His own in Christ before the creation of the world, that we might be holy and without blemish in His presence. 5. For He pre-destined us to be adopted by Himself as sons through Jesus Christ--such being His gracious will and pleasure-- 6. to the praise of the splendour of His grace with which He has enriched us in the beloved One. 7. It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, 8. the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, 9. when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose 10. for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. 11. In Him we Jews have been made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will, 12. so that we should be devoted to the extolling of His glorious attributes--we who were the first to fix our hopes on Christ. 13. And in Him you Gentiles also, after listening to the Message of the truth, the Good News of your salvation--having believed in Him--were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit; 22. God has put all things under His feet, and has appointed Him universal and supreme Head of the Church, which is His Body, 23. the completeness of Him who everywhere fills the universe with Himself.

(So it is for the elect to carry out the will of GOD. and what is the will of GOD for all HIS creation?)

It is for the elect to be adopted. All humanity, indeed all creation carries out the will of God.
You have tried to tie your bad interpretation of 1 Timothy into a passage on predestination, which is just bad hermeneutics.

1 Timothy 2: 1. I exhort then, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings be offered on behalf of all men; 2. including kings and all who are in high station, in order that we may live peaceful and tranquil lives with all godliness and gravity. 3. This is right, and is pleasing in the sight of God our Saviour, 4. who is willing for all mankind to be saved and come to a full knowledge of the truth. 6. who gave Himself as the redemption price for all--a fact testified to at its own appointed time,

(Your turn)


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I have gone over your bad interpretation of verse 4 on multiple occasions and you have been shown to be wrong. Yet you continue in your stubborn path none-the-less.
Are you a universalist? You must be. Otherwise you cannot reach the conclusions you have reached. By your teaching, all humanity is elect and universally saved.

 

[popsthebuilder]

I have already explained this in the beginning of this thread. Are humans, by nature, sinful? Have all fallen short of the glory of God? Is the wages of sin, death? You know the answer. You know the law requires justice to be paid for law breaking. Is God just or is He unjust? Is God required to pardon all humanity? If so, please present your universalism.



It is for the elect to be adopted. All humanity, indeed all creation carries out the will of God.
You have tried to tie your bad interpretation of 1 Timothy into a passage on predestination, which is just bad hermeneutics.

I have gone over your bad interpretation of verse 4 on multiple occasions and you have been shown to be wrong. Yet you continue in your stubborn path none-the-less.
Are you a universalist? You must be. Otherwise you cannot reach the conclusions you have reached. By your teaching, all humanity is elect and universally saved.

No sir; you seem to be missing something.....that's right; scriptural support.

So to you GOD hasn't the means to fullfil HIS will to you!?

I didn't try to tie anything together.

I posted the scriptural fact that it is the desire of GOD that all be saved and the elect reflect the light and Way of GOD.

All you have mustered is a "nahah....I said otherwise, I'm right your wrong.

This isn't kinder care friendo; how does it go? You remember I'm sure; put up or shut up.

While you are putting up, go ahead and post scripture showing it is the will of GOD that most be eternally tortured for what GOD caused knowingly...

on second thought; wait on that last bit....don't want you to get sidetracked.


Still waiting on the scripture.....and there is a WHOLE lot more scripture to support my understanding; just as soon as you have the stomach for it.

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[popsthebuilder]

that sounds as though you think the elect are chosen for a special task, quite independent of whether or not they have been chosen for salvation. But the Bible speaks more definitely about the latter than about the former perspective. See for instance, John 10:28-30

28”I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

The elect being saved is a given and an aside at this point.

Double predestination is wholly and utterly evil; GOD is wholly just and merciful.

I simply want an individual to reconcile these two things scripturally....though they cannot.

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[popsthebuilder]

for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him.

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[MennoSota]

No sir; you seem to be missing something.....that's right; scriptural support.

So to you GOD hasn't the means to fullfil HIS will to you!?

I didn't try to tie anything together.

I posted the scriptural fact that it is the desire of GOD that all be saved and the elect reflect the light and Way of GOD.

All you have mustered is a "nahah....I said otherwise, I'm right your wrong.

This isn't kinder care friendo; how does it go? You remember I'm sure; put up or shut up.

While you are putting up, go ahead and post scripture showing it is the will of GOD that most be eternally tortured for what GOD caused knowingly...

on second thought; wait on that last bit....don't want you to get sidetracked.


Still waiting on the scripture.....and there is a WHOLE lot more scripture to support my understanding; just as soon as you have the stomach for it.

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Please go through Ephesians 1 as well as Timothy, and show how they teach your claimed position that God elects some to be evangelists to all so that all will be saved.
You simply quoted two passages and said "see, I have scripture", but you never went through those verses to show how those verses teach what you contend. I appreciate verse by verse so please share how the two passages you quoted teach what you preach.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Please go through Ephesians 1 as well as Timothy, and show how they teach your claimed position that God elects some to be evangelists to all so that all will be saved.
You simply quoted two passages and said "see, I have scripture", but you never went through those verses to show how those verses teach what you contend. I appreciate verse by verse so please share how the two passages you quoted teach what you preach.

Still your turn to produce scripture for your perspective.

You don't think I really only have two verses for support do you?

Not wasting my time posting more or going into needless detail of the ones I have posted until you post a rebuttal in like kind(that kind being scriptural)

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[popsthebuilder]

Please go through Ephesians 1 as well as Timothy, and show how they teach your claimed position that God elects some to be evangelists to all so that all will be saved.
You simply quoted two passages and said "see, I have scripture", but you never went through those verses to show how those verses teach what you contend. I appreciate verse by verse so please share how the two passages you quoted teach what you preach.

The verses ate self explanatory.

Do you believe it is the desire of GOD that all return to HIM?

Do you believe GOD has the power to bring HIS will about in HIS time, through HIS means, to HIS glorification?

What glorious light do you reflect of GOD when you claim HE created very nearly all men and women for the purpose of eternal torture?

You are painting our GOD in the light of an incompetent tyrant, seemingly due to your "understanding", so please do provide some evidence for your atrocious claims.

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[Albion]

The elect being saved is a given and an aside at this point.

Double predestination is wholly and utterly evil; GOD is wholly just and merciful.

I simply want an individual to reconcile these two things scripturally....though they cannot.

All of that seems to be different from what was in the post I replied to, but of course your question can be answered. You THINK God is unjust if He were to operate by Double Predestination. That's what it is--a human perception. Other people insist that he is evil and unjust if he does not save every last person no matter what that person chooses to do. Still other people have their own views on what God must do or not do in order to be God. But God is the Creator of everything, after all, and the epitome of perfection. He does not march to the concepts of justice, mercy, etc. that Men think he must.

 

[popsthebuilder]

All of that seems to be different from what was in the post I replied to, but of course your question can be answered. You THINK God is unjust if He were to operate by Double Predestination. That's what it is--a human perception. Other people insist that he is evil and unjust if he does not save every last person no matter what that person chooses to do. Still other people have their own views on what God must do or not do in order to be God. But God is the Creator of everything, after all, and the epitome of perfection. He does not march to the concepts of justice, mercy, etc. that Men think he must.

We agree.

I never said GOD had to do anything to be GOD. pretty sure creating all existence is the only prerequisite for such.

My point is that the Bible and other core sacred texts describe GOD as all knowing and merciful and just. So when I say it, it is the reiteration of the written word that I espouse. You seem to think it is me making these claims; rather it is GOD who shows us HIS mercy, grace, benevolence, and justice.

peace

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[popsthebuilder]

Romans 9: 29. Even as Isaiah says in an earlier place, <"Were it not that the Lord, the God of Hosts, had left us some few descendants, we should have become like Sodom, and have come to resemble Gomorrah."> 33. in agreement with the statement of Scripture, <"See, I am placing on Mount Zion a stone for people to stumble at, and a rock for them to trip over, and yet he whose faith rests upon it shall never have reason to feel ashamed.">



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[MennoSota]

All of that seems to be different from what was in the post I replied to, but of course your question can be answered. You THINK God is unjust if He were to operate by Double Predestination. That's what it is--a human perception. Other people insist that he is evil and unjust if he does not save every last person no matter what that person chooses to do. Still other people have their own views on what God must do or not do in order to be God. But God is the Creator of everything, after all, and the epitome of perfection. He does not march to the concepts of justice, mercy, etc. that Men think he must.

Indeed.
Since all sin, all fall short and the penalty of sin is eternal separation from God...is God required to pardon all and grant all his mercy?
If so, then there is no election necessary and universal atonement is given to all.
However, the Bible tells us that God has chosen and elected from before the foundation of the world to predesinate these humans as a display of his mercy and grace. The Bible says that angels long to understand this and cannot understand. How then should we presume to know the mind of God and call him vile names because he does not act as we demand? Such a demanding spirit comes from the depth of hell, not from heaven. Such a demanding spirit reveals the very nature of Satan who desired to rule above God and make God his servant. Such is the nature of a man who demands that God act according to man's decree.

 

[MennoSota]

Romans 9: 29. Even as Isaiah says in an earlier place, <"Were it not that the Lord, the God of Hosts, had left us some few descendants, we should have become like Sodom, and have come to resemble Gomorrah."> 33. in agreement with the statement of Scripture, <"See, I am placing on Mount Zion a stone for people to stumble at, and a rock for them to trip over, and yet he whose faith rests upon it shall never have reason to feel ashamed.">



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What does this have to do with election and your quote of Ephesians 1 and Timothy? I'm waiting for you to exposite these passages and make your case for God electing some so that they might evangelize all and thus give the rest of the world the opportunity to choose.

 

[popsthebuilder]

What does this have to do with election and your quote of Ephesians 1 and Timothy? I'm waiting for you to exposite these passages and make your case for God electing some so that they might evangelize all and thus give the rest of the world the opportunity to choose.

Will Egypt be redeemed?

I told you I wouldn't be directing any more scripture to you personally until you can provide some. The verses I provided speak for themselves.

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[Albion]

We agree.

I never said GOD had to do anything to be GOD. pretty sure creating all existence is the only prerequisite for such.

My point is that the Bible and other core sacred texts describe GOD as all knowing and merciful and just. So when I say it, it is the reiteration of the written word that I espouse. You seem to think it is me making these claims; rather it is GOD who shows us HIS mercy, grace, benevolence, and justice.

No, that wasn't my message at all. It was that we cannot simply declare that God is unjust because he may seem so to us according to our fallen nature and the standards of worldly society.

 

[MennoSota]

Will Egypt be redeemed?

I told you I wouldn't be directing any more scripture to you personally until you can provide some. The verses I provided speak for themselves.

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The scriptures you share speak for themselves, they just don't speak your theology. If you care to share how you've pretzeled them into your theology, please do so. But, don't imagine that merely copying and pasting scripture makes your argument legitimate. Satan quoted scripture for goodness sakes.
Do you imagine that God has not elected some Egyptians into the Kingdom? I tell you that I personally know some redeemed Egyptians whom God has elected to adopt and save.