Disagreements between Catholics and Protestants

Faith

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Ah. I didn't realize that you'd made this decision final. But because you have, you're making progress and we're happy for you. :)
Well, it’s pretty final…..unless I can’t find a reasonable alternative. I just want to have a church home nearby that I’m comfortable with and I can agree with.
 

Albion

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Well, it’s pretty final…..unless I can’t find a reasonable alternative. I just want to have a church home nearby that I’m comfortable with and I can agree with.
Ever tried a Lutheran Church other than the LCMS?

The ELCA certainly doesn't dogmatize on the fine points of evolution which was the main objection to the LCMS. And the liturgy would be the same.
 

Josiah

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I know you keep telling me that it’s not mentioned in the Lutheran Confessions, but it really bothers me because it is church teaching.

That's a contradiction.

Again, I'd agree that most pastors in the LCMS hold to a six-day creation. But YOU are not asked to agree with that. It's not doctrine in the LCMS, it's not binding, you are not required to agree or even asked to agree.

Most are also pro-life. And the LCMS has passed resolutions to that effect at every convention since 1969. BUT you are not required to agree or even asked to agree, you are absolutely free to disagree. Popular opinions are not the same as required doctrine. It's unlikely that you can find a parish (with more than one member - you) where you agree with the members on everything. Or even with the pastor on everything.



We wouldn’t want one of those pesky old earthers to teach something against the church,


As I mentioned before, a TEACHER in a parish can be asked to teach views in conformity with that parish. This will also be true in any church where there are teachers unless it is one of the (sadly common) churches where truth is considered irrelevant and only feelings matter. If you TEACH for a church, you represent that church, you teach in its stead.

Faith, the same would be true if you TAUGHT the teen Sunday School Class that abortion on demand for any or no reason is just fine up to 30 days after birth is just fine. As a layperson, you may hold to that, but as an official TEACHER of a church, they CAN ask you to either teach in conformity with the beliefs of that parish OR (more likely) simply not teach contrary to it. This will be true in ANY church your join, even a non-denom, unless that parish holds that truth doesn't matter, morality doesn't matter. TEACHERS representing the church are held to a different standard than members. Always. Everywhere.




.
 
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Josiah

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The ELCA certainly doesn't dogmatize on the fine points of evolution

Nor does the LCMS

There are lay persons in the ELCA who hold to evolution and some who don't. Just like in the LCMS and probably every church. But it's not dogma in any Lutheran denomination known to me.



.
 

Faith

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Ever tried a Lutheran Church other than the LCMS?

The ELCA certainly doesn't dogmatize on the fine points of evolution which was the main objection to the LCMS. And the liturgy would be the same.
Yeah, but it’s farther than I want to drive. Well that, and I don’t think it’ll be open for much longer. My friend invited me to her ELCA church and from what I hear, numbers are really dwindling, they now have only one service and the closed the preschool.
 

Faith

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Nor does the LCMS

There are lay persons in the ELCA who hold to evolution and some who don't. Just like in the LCMS and probably every church. But it's not dogma in any Lutheran denomination known to me.



.
Define dogma……I know it’s official church teaching even though my pastor doesn’t seem to care about my difference in beliefs.
 

Faith

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That's a contradiction.

Again, I'd agree that most pastors in the LCMS hold to a six-day creation. But YOU are not asked to agree with that. It's not doctrine in the LCMS, it's not binding, you are not required to agree or even asked to agree.

Most are also pro-life. And the LCMS has passed resolutions to that effect at every convention since 1969. BUT you are not required to agree or even asked to agree, you are absolutely free to disagree. Popular opinions are not the same as required doctrine. It's unlikely that you can find a parish (with more than one member - you) where you agree with the members on everything. Or even with the pastor on everything.






As I mentioned before, a TEACHER in a parish can be asked to teach views in conformity with that parish. This will also be true in any church where there are teachers unless it is one of the (sadly common) churches where truth is considered irrelevant and only feelings matter. If you TEACH for a church, you represent that church, you teach in its stead.

Faith, the same would be true if you TAUGHT the teen Sunday School Class that abortion on demand for any or no reason is just fine up to 30 days after birth is just fine. As a layperson, you may hold to that, but as an official TEACHER of a church, they CAN ask you to either teach in conformity with the beliefs of that parish OR (more likely) simply not teach contrary to it. This will be true in ANY church your join, even a non-denom, unless that parish holds that truth doesn't matter, morality doesn't matter. TEACHERS representing the church are held to a different standard than members. Always. Everywhere.




.
As usual you’ve given me lots to think about. As have others.
 

Albion

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Yeah, but it’s farther than I want to drive.
Yup. I was just about to add that we often identify a church that seems to meet the requirements of the person only to find that there isn't a congregation of that denomination nearby. 😞

Well that, and I don’t think it’ll be open for much longer. My friend invited me to her ELCA church and from what I hear, numbers are really dwindling, they now have only one service and the closed the preschool.
Uh huh. The ELCA predominates in parts of the country and the LCMS in others, even though both are nationwide, so what you report here isn't at all unusual.
 

Faith

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Yup. I was just about to add that we often identify a church that seems to meet the requirements of the person only to find that there isn't a congregation of that denomination nearby. 😞


Uh huh. The ELCA predominates in parts of the country and the LCMS in others, even though both are nationwide, so what you report here isn't at all unusual.
From what I’ve read the ELCA is supposed to be a really popular church and maybe it is in other suburbs nearby. I don’t know. I do know that my friend has another church(s) she could attend that’s close to where she lives…..she has a pretty far drive to her church but it’s their church home and has been for a long time. I think she grew up in it and got married in it so she’s staying.
 

Albion

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Define dogma……I know it’s official church teaching even though my pastor doesn’t seem to care about my difference in beliefs.
How about this? It is taken from the Lutheran Witness, the official LCMS publication, and the article is written by the president of the LCMS. This is only the first part of the article.

The LCMS’s classic statement on creation was made a long time ago in the Brief Statement of the Doctrinal Position of the Missouri Synod (1932), and it still holds today:

We teach that God has created heaven and earth, and that in the manner and in the space of time recorded in the Holy Scriptures, especially Gen. 1 and 2, namely, by His almighty creative word, and in six days. We reject every doctrine which denies or limits the work of creation as taught in Scripture. In our days it is denied or limited by those who assert, ostensibly in deference to science, that the world came into existence through a process of evolution; that is, that it has, in immense periods of time, developed more or less of itself. Since no man was present when it pleased God to create the world, we must look for a reliable account of creation to God’s own record, found in God’s own book, the Bible. We accept God’s own record with full confidence and confess with Luther’s Catechism: “I believe that God has made me and all creatures.”

Over the centuries, there have been a plethora of attempts to alleviate the “scandal” of the creation accounts and to understand them in a way that is less offensive to human reason. Although it is true that the Synod has not defined as biblical doctrine a specific age of the earth, attempts to alleviate the scandal of the creation accounts by suggesting that the earth is somehow millions or billions of years old actually compound the scandal in my view. Can we somehow stretch the meaning of a “day” in Genesis 1 into an eon or long period of time? If so, then how is it that light is created prior to the sun? How is it that vegetation is created before the sun? How is it that God creates fish and birds prior to the other animals?

As I read it, he is saying that the church rejects atheistic evolution but not evolution itself and does not demand that it be six days as we normally count days. But the author then says that, in his own view, that alternative cannot be millions or billions of years if it's not the six day week. In short, there's the LCMS official statement, but his personal belief then fills in some of the explanation that was left open (and you'd be free to look at that matter differently). In other words, Josiah seems proven correct when he addressed what you'd really need to believe in order to be a sincere and loyal church member, and that's also what I suspect that the pastor you talked with was trying to get across.
 
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Faith

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How about this? It is taken from the Lutheran Witness, the official LCMS publication, and the article is written by the president of the LCMS.

The LCMS’s classic statement on creation was made a long time ago in the Brief Statement of the Doctrinal Position of the Missouri Synod (1932), and it still holds today:

We teach that God has created heaven and earth, and that in the manner and in the space of time recorded in the Holy Scriptures, especially Gen. 1 and 2, namely, by His almighty creative word, and in six days. We reject every doctrine which denies or limits the work of creation as taught in Scripture. In our days it is denied or limited by those who assert, ostensibly in deference to science, that the world came into existence through a process of evolution; that is, that it has, in immense periods of time, developed more or less of itself. Since no man was present when it pleased God to create the world, we must look for a reliable account of creation to God’s own record, found in God’s own book, the Bible. We accept God’s own record with full confidence and confess with Luther’s Catechism: “I believe that God has made me and all creatures.”

Over the centuries, there have been a plethora of attempts to alleviate the “scandal” of the creation accounts and to understand them in a way that is less offensive to human reason. Although it is true that the Synod has not defined as biblical doctrine a specific age of the earth, attempts to alleviate the scandal of the creation accounts by suggesting that the earth is somehow millions or billions of years old actually compound the scandal in my view. Can we somehow stretch the meaning of a “day” in Genesis 1 into an eon or long period of time? If so, then how is it that light is created prior to the sun? How is it that vegetation is created before the sun? How is it that God creates fish and birds prior to the other animals?
That’s why I’ve been thinking about leaving: “We teach that….” “We reject every doctrine which….”
 

Albion

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Oh, the LCMS is renowned for seriousness, especially when it comes to religion! But I was adding a personal comment to that post as you were responding to it, so please take another look. It may not change a thing, but I'd like you to read the final paragraph in black.
 

Faith

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Oh, the LCMS is renowned for seriousness, especially when it comes to religion. But I was adding a personal comment to that post as you were responding to it, so please take another look. It may not change a thing, but I'd like you to read the final paragraph in black.
Ok, thanks for clarifying. And for me to be clear, I don’t believe in atheistic evolution either.
 

Faith

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How about this? It is taken from the Lutheran Witness, the official LCMS publication, and the article is written by the president of the LCMS. This is only the first part of the article.

The LCMS’s classic statement on creation was made a long time ago in the Brief Statement of the Doctrinal Position of the Missouri Synod (1932), and it still holds today:

We teach that God has created heaven and earth, and that in the manner and in the space of time recorded in the Holy Scriptures, especially Gen. 1 and 2, namely, by His almighty creative word, and in six days. We reject every doctrine which denies or limits the work of creation as taught in Scripture. In our days it is denied or limited by those who assert, ostensibly in deference to science, that the world came into existence through a process of evolution; that is, that it has, in immense periods of time, developed more or less of itself. Since no man was present when it pleased God to create the world, we must look for a reliable account of creation to God’s own record, found in God’s own book, the Bible. We accept God’s own record with full confidence and confess with Luther’s Catechism: “I believe that God has made me and all creatures.”

Over the centuries, there have been a plethora of attempts to alleviate the “scandal” of the creation accounts and to understand them in a way that is less offensive to human reason. Although it is true that the Synod has not defined as biblical doctrine a specific age of the earth, attempts to alleviate the scandal of the creation accounts by suggesting that the earth is somehow millions or billions of years old actually compound the scandal in my view. Can we somehow stretch the meaning of a “day” in Genesis 1 into an eon or long period of time? If so, then how is it that light is created prior to the sun? How is it that vegetation is created before the sun? How is it that God creates fish and birds prior to the other animals?

As I read it, he is saying that the church rejects atheistic evolution but not evolution itself and does not demand that it be six days as we normally count days. But the author then says that, in his own view, that alternative cannot be millions or billions of years if it's not the six day week. In short, there's the LCMS official statement, but his personal belief then fills in some of the explanation that was left open (and you'd be free to look at that matter differently). In other words, Josiah seems proven correct when he addressed what you'd really need to believe in order to be a sincere and loyal church member, and that's also what I suspect that the pastor you talked with was trying to get across.
So IOW, the LCMS rejects atheistic evolution but doesn’t have a position on theistic evolution? And it doesn’t demand belief I. six literal days (as humans today define days). And when you said “in his own view”, it’s merely his opinion, not church teaching?
 
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Josiah

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So IOW, the LCMS rejects atheistic evolution but doesn’t have a position on theistic evolution? And it doesn’t demand belief I. six literal days (as humans today define days). And when you said “in his own view”, it’s merely his opinion, not church teaching?


The Brief Statement is from 90 years ago. It's not doctrine, it's not binding. It DOES reflect a common view 90 years ago (it was approved by a convention) but never added to our Confessions or doctrines.

Yes, LCMS leaders, pastors and lay people all have opinions - on everything from God to Chinese food. Opinions are not dogmas. Thus not binding. What IS binding to you as a church member is Luther's words in Luther's Small Catechism. Ordained pastors are bound to the Book of Concord of 1580 (which does not include the Brief Statement of 1932) but it seems you are not an ordained LCMS pastor.

Yes, probably most LCMS members are Republicans, pro-life, pro-American folks who like Bratwurst. But no one is required to be such in order to be a bona fide and full church member.


.
 

Albion

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According to the article (and the LCMS president), that 1932 statement "still holds today." However, the article points out that the statement does not deny that it may have taken longer for the six "days" of Creation to be accomplished than six 24-hour days as we commonly count days now.

It could have taken longer, but whatever the time that this took, it was according to God's will and design.

What it rejected is the typical POV advanced by atheists who of course attribute everything in existence to some force that has nothing to do with any supreme being. As it was posted, 'Faith' also rejects atheistic theories of evolution.

As for the personal opinion of the author, yes, it is exactly that: his personal view. That view is not about God having created everything as is described in Genesis but concerning exactly how long a span of time it took if not six 24-hour days. But he doesn't advance a belief in any particular time frame; he's just saying he doesn't think it could be the millions or billions of years that scientists usually talk about.

And the importance of that part of the article is, IMHO, that 'Faith' would be entirely free as an LCMS member to guess at the time that passed as having been a few centuries, or millions of years, or (for that matter) six 24-hour calendar days, just so long as she believes that it was all done by God as the Bible teaches it happened.
 

Faith

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The Brief Statement is from 90 years ago. It's not doctrine, it's not binding. It DOES reflect a common view 90 years ago (it was approved by a convention) but never added to our Confessions or doctrines.

Yes, LCMS leaders, pastors and lay people all have opinions - on everything from God to Chinese food. Opinions are not dogmas. Thus not binding. What IS binding to you as a church member is Luther's words in Luther's Small Catechism. Ordained pastors are bound to the Book of Concord of 1580 (which does not include the Brief Statement of 1932) but it seems you are not an ordained LCMS pastor.

Yes, probably most LCMS members are Republicans, pro-life, pro-American folks who like Bratwurst. But no one is required to be such in order to be a bona fide and full church member.


.
Ok, but it IS the church teaching. So, what’s the difference between teaching and dogma? According to Dictionary.com they are synonyms.
 
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Fritz Kobus

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I know you keep telling me that it’s not mentioned in the Lutheran Confessions, but it really bothers me because it is church teaching. And among every person I’ve spoken to about this (laypersons) they all agree in YEC and Biblical Creation.

I mentioned this before but for those who haven’t read it, I was even told that I couldn’t teach anything there (which is fine, I don’t and didn’t want to) due to my beliefs. We wouldn’t want one of those pesky old earthers to teach something against the church,
The Lutheran Confessions, i..e., the Book of Concord, was written in the 1500s, long before the so-called theory of evolution appeared. It was not an issue in the early Lutheran church and so was not addressed.
 

Faith

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The Lutheran Confessions, i..e., the Book of Concord, was written in the 1500s, long before the so-called theory of evolution appeared. It was not an issue in the early Lutheran church and so was not addressed.
Yes, but athe modern day LCMS have upheld the teachings.
 

Fritz Kobus

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Yes, but athe modern day LCMS have upheld the teachings.
The 1932 Brief Statement seems pretty clear to support young earth, 6-day creation which does not allow for theistic evolution.
 
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