Did Christ die for them that are perishing ?

[jswauto]

False witnessing

Can we at least agree on this:

 

[brightfame52]

By His stripes we are healed or saved ! 2

The Testimony of the Apostle Peter was that it was by Christ's death alone, here called stripes 1 Pet 2:24, in that He bare our sins in His Body on the Tree, and by that healing was effected, it effectually brought about our Salvation,in its totality, conversion included. That word healed is used here Jn 12:40

He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

So the healing from the Cross does exactly what is denied people here, It opens their eyes, gives them a heart that understands [Matt 13:23] and converts them, or heals them ! We are healed when we are converted

That word converted, the greek word epistrephō is the same word returned here in 1 Peter 2:25

For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Here its in the passive voice meaning that they have been returned, they are turned by the effects of Christ's stripes !

This is undeniably True, that Christ's death alone effects the spiritual conversion of all for whom He died, those who deny it, are attempting to strip the Death of Christ alone of its Saving merit, which none but antichrist would do, so that he can cause men to worship him through their so called freewill ! 24

 

[brightfame52]

It's obvious that you resort to straw man arguments instead of responding to direct biblical arguments that explicitly falsify your doctrine.

So what is your faith in Christ for ? You dont believe His death in and of itself saved anyone !

 

[brightfame52]

So says you.

You're arguing against the explicit statement of scripture.

Its impossible for anyone Christ died for to be condemned, the only thing that can condemn them is sin, and He already died in their place for that. Duh

 

[Frankj]

Its impossible for anyone Christ died for to be condemned, the only thing that can condemn them is sin, and He already died in their place for that. Duh

How would this differ from Nicolaitan thought? I think I'm not fully understanding your meaning.

 

[brightfame52]

How would this differ from Nicolaitan thought? I think I'm not fully understanding your meaning.

I have the slightest idea what you talking about. Read my posts for fuller meaning.

 

[Frankj]

I have the slightest idea what you talking about. Read my posts for fuller meaning.

Are you meaning that sin does not apply to those who are saved?

 

[VeritatisVerba]

So what is your faith in Christ for ?

That's my line.

Your doctrine makes faith superfluous. Worse than that even; it's entirely meaningless.

You dont believe His death in and of itself saved anyone !

True. I do not. It is what made it possible.

I will not respond further until you respond to the arguments I've already made. You can waste someone else's time mindlessly repeating yourself if that's all you're going to do.

 

[brightfame52]

By His stripes we are healed or saved ! 3

That Christ's death alone saved, healed, converted all for whom He died, is taught beyond all doubt here Isa 53:5

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Also See 1 Pet 2:24 !

Now the word healed in the hebrew is rapha and means :

I.to heal, make healthful ,

of national hurts, subject city Jeremiah 51:8,9; involving forgiveness and ׳יs blessing, impersonal with ל of people, נִרְמָּאלָֿנוּ Isaiah 53:5 i.e. healing has come to us.

The main of which is the forgiveness of our sins, which constitutes our peace with God, the removal of our guilt, and being freed from the punishment due unto it.

The same Idea is here where the same word is used Ps 103:3

Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;

Of which brings spiritual healing to our souls Ps 41:4

I said, LORD, be merciful unto me: heal my soul; for I have sinned against thee.

Jer 17:14

Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for thou art my praise.

Sin is the sickness of the soul and the soul is healed when, being pardoned by mercy !

it is also renewed by grace

The prominent Idea in healing is acquittal from sin, a discharge, a Justification from, all of which the death of Christ alone provides for !

This healing comes to all for whom's iniquties he was brusied for, and transgressions He was wounded for.

But this healing does not stop at mere acquittal / Justification, but has as a accompanying outgrowth effects healing of the soul.

Now understand , that His death/ stripes ensures, guarantees that all for whom He died receives as a Gift of from healing, a New Spirit Ezk 36:26

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

In other words, His stripes ensures that they experience this Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Thats the New Spirit God promises to put within them in Ezk 36:26, its New Birth or some call it Regeneration.

Now recognize, If each person that Christ died for is not regenerated, as an evidence of the healing of the striopes of Him as per Isa 53:5; 1 Pet 2:24, then these scriptures do bare false witness and are misleading to say the least.

Notice the prophet uses the pronoun we are healed Isa 53:5

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

He is speaking of a whole nation of people See 1 Pet 2:9; Matt 21:43, a whole Body of People which is also described in Vs 10 as Christ's Seed Isa 53:10, now if this was the Lords seed that is healed in Isa 53:5,10, then thats who it is in 1 Pet 2:24.

In fact, those in 1 Pet 2:24 are also called earlier a Genration here 1 Pet 2:9

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light

Which word means offspring, its the greek word genos:

I.kindred
A.
offspring

B.
family

C.
stock, tribe, nation
i.
i.e. nationality or descent from a particular people

Which is the same word seed here Isa 53:10, the word zera` :

I.seed, sowing, offspring

Those being born of that incorruptible seed Christ 1 Pet 1:23

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

That refers back to Isa 53:10, Christ's Seed, Christ is the Word of God ! 24

 

[brightfame52]

Are you meaning that sin does not apply to those who are saved?

Huh ? Please go read my previous posts so you can understand what Ive been advocating for.

 

[brightfame52]

That's my line.

Your doctrine makes faith superfluous. Worse than that even; it's entirely meaningless.


True. I do not. It is what made it possible.

I will not respond further until you respond to the arguments I've already made. You can waste someone else's time mindlessly repeating yourself if that's all you're going to do.

What you believe makes faith to be in vain. What exactly is your faith in Christ about ? You say His Death alone saved no one, didn't save everyone He died for. So what is your faith in Christ about ? Explain

 

[VeritatisVerba]

What you believe makes faith to be in vain.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

I have argued quite compellingly that the reverse it true. Your doctrines turns faith into a meaningless concept. It is somehow something that is done to us for no reason at all rather than something we do in response to God.

What exactly is your faith in Christ about?

I believe that I am a sinner, not by birth but by choice. I have knowingly rebelled against a righteous God and deserve death. Yet God, in His love, became a man in the person of Jesus Christ in order to offer Himself as a sacrifice on my behalf. He laid down His life, remained in the grave for three days, and rose again by His own power.


This death and resurrection made it possible for God to extend an offer. Just as Abraham was promised a son and believed what God said, I too am given a promise. If I trust in the finished work of Christ, both His atoning death and His resurrection, then I will be saved. I take God at His word. I believe the promise. I trust Him not to condemn me, though I deserve condemnation, because I have placed my faith in the sacrifice He offered for that very purpose.

You say His Death alone saved no one, didn't save everyone He died for. So what is your faith in Christ about ? Explain

Christ death was a necessary part of the salvation process but it is not the whole of it. It is not applied arbitrarily! That is the key point.

God had a real problem to solve. He created humanity for love and relationship, but man rebelled. That rebellion cannot be excused or ignored. Why? Because God is not arbitrary! as your doctrine teaches. He is just. He cannot simply call something righteous that is not. He cannot overlook guilt by pretending it does not matter. The wages of sin is death, and that is what justice requires.

A substitute was needed. but no ordinary human being could serve as a substitute. One person can only die for another if he is both innocent and willing. Even then, the trade is only one for one. The problem was far greater. What was needed was something of such overwhelming worth that it could pay the debt of countless sinners. God gave the only thing of such value. He gave Himself.

God's own life is worth far more than the total of all human life combined. Even three days of that life, offered freely in love, is of inexhaustible worth. That is why His death was sufficient to atone for the sins of the entire human race. Not only once, but as many times as needed and because He gave Himself voluntarily, justice is not compromised. It is fulfilled.

This atonement is offered to everyone, but it is only applied to those who respond in faith. Salvation is a gift. It is not earned and it cannot be coerced. It is received by faith. God promises eternal life to those who believe. I believe that promise. That is what my faith in Christ is about.

 

[BruceLeiter]

No. The book of John is not a dictionary, nor is there any evidence that John was using the term to mean something other than his intended audience would have understood it to mean when they read it.


John STARTS his gospel with this term. There is NOTHING to suggest that it would mean something peculiar to his use of it. If his intent had been to redefine the term, he would not have launched his gospel with it's naked use but would have included clarification of his intent, which is utterly absent and unnecessary to boot.


This is your doctrine. The first chapter of the book of John doesn't contradict the Trinity doctrine, but it isn't teaching it either. Nor would it doing so necessitate any alteration to the normal meaning of the word "logos".

In short, what you're implicitly proposing is eisegesis, not exegesis, but we aren't to conform scripture into whatever way we need it to be in order to maintain our theology (eisegesis). On the contrary, we are to conform our theology to the plain reading of scripture (exegesis).

No one reading John's opening passages would have gotten from it anything other than that John was equating Jesus with the rational principle that orders and sustains the universe, which is a good thing because that's exactly and explicitly what he was doing.

That, by the way, isn't only what John's contemporary audience would have understood him to be saying, it also happens to be true - which is why he said it. In other words, there isn't any need to think that John meant something other than what the word "logos" normally meant at the time he wrote it.

The fact is that God's word is written with WORDS. Words mean things. We don't get to ignore what the words mean because we don't like the conclusion we come to when we pay attention to such things. If such was allowed then there'd be no way to falsify any wild-eyed doctrine anyone cared to contrive.

@VeritatisVerba, respectfully, you're still trying to define and interpret the Bible by what it doesn't say and what people at that time thought it meant. God inspired the prophets and apostles to write the whole Bible. Therefore, we must go by the ways those inspired people used the words, yes, as God's Bible "dictionary." That's why word studies and comparing Scripture with Scripture are so important in understanding the true meaning of the Bible.

As a former English teacher, pastor, and now a Christian author, I know how to avoid eisegesis and do exegesis. An important interpretive principle is to interpret any passage in terms of its context, which is the rest of the gospel, which defines "the Word" as Jesus, the divine-human Rescuer and Giver of eternal life, through his gift of faith in him as the only way for us to receive the Father's approval.

 

[VeritatisVerba]

@VeritatisVerba, respectfully, you're still trying to define and interpret the Bible by what it doesn't say and what people at that time thought it meant.

On the contrary. I am doing precisely the opposite of that. I am interpreting the bible based exclusively on what it actually does say in its original language and in context. That's precisely what exegesis is all about.

God inspired the prophets and apostles to write the whole Bible.

TRUE!

Therefore, we must go by the ways those inspired people used the words, yes, as God's Bible "dictionary."

In so far as the bible gives a specific definition to a concept, I agree. Hebrews 11 defining "faith" is an obvious example. When God states in the Psalms that righteousness and justice are the foundation of His authority is another.

John 1, however, nor even the entire book of John for that matter, makes no effort to give a special definition to the word Logos nor is there even any indication that John's use of the term was peculiar in anyway. You might claim that this is not the case and that there is a special definition or that John's use of the term was peculiar in some way but then the burden would be on you to establish that. Without it's peculiarity being established then the normal meaning of the term must apply. That's just plain common sense. Otherwise, it's just an exercise is eisegesis where it isn't scripture that is informing our interpretation of scripture but our doctrine, which isn't the same thing.

That's why word studies and comparing Scripture with Scripture are so important in understanding the true meaning of the Bible.

Which is precisely what I have presented - is it not?

Have you ever noticed that whenever the first chapter of John is quoted that it almost always has to be explained to the uninitiated listener?

You cannot simply read John 1:1 in English and understand what it means unless someone explains it to you. The reason why is precisely because the term "Word" is not used in the way John 1:1 uses it ANYWHERE ELSE in all of English literature unless that usage is alluding to the John 1 passage! The English term "Word" very simply does NOT name the concept that John is invoking in that passage. It would be better if the term "Logos" itself was simply left untranslated and used as is in our English bibles. In fact, had that been done, you'd not be disagreeing with me here because everyone would know what "Logos" meant to the Hellenized audience (both Jew and Greek) that John was aiming his gospel at.

As a former English teacher, pastor, and now a Christian author, I know how to avoid eisegesis and do exegesis.

Then you know that what you proposed in your last post was eisegesis.

An important interpretive principle is to interpret any passage in terms of its context, which is the rest of the gospel, which defines "the Word" as Jesus, the divine-human Rescuer and Giver of eternal life, through his gift of faith in him as the only way for us to receive the Father's approval.

There is more to "context" than just the rest of the book. Context includes the intended audience. Scripture that is interpreted without consideration of its immediate audience is a recipe for disaster and in fact, is the opposite of interpreting a "passage in terms of its context".

Having said that, please do for me what you are suggesting I should be doing. Please establish by means of the use of the rest of John's gospel that "Logos" means something that is contradictory to or otherwise incompatible with it's normal meaning, which, as I have already establish is "Divine Reason" or "the rational principle that orders and sustains the universe", (which is definitely what John's audience would have understood him to be referring to), or contrary to any other portion of my comments in Post #488.

 

[brightfame52]

Brings all to Faith !

Jn 12:32-33

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

If Christ by His death/being lifted up, draws all men unto Him, this word draw speaks to have been given life,or communicated life. The word draw is the greek word helkō means:

I.
to draw, drag off

II.
metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

It also means to persuade

I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all,

Yes the inward impelling and power to be come to Christ is nothing short of that quickening Life from out of the Last Adam 1 Cor 15:45

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Quickening means to make alive, makes movement / operation and it impels, so this drawing is by an impartation of quickening Life from the risen Christ, which is none other than His Spirit or the Holy Spirit, and the Spirit is Life Rom 8:10

And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

All for whom He died, doeth have imputed to them Righteousness, and That Righteousness demands Life Prov 11:19

As righteousness tendeth to life: so he that pursueth evil pursueth it to his own death.

Because of what Christ has done for sinners that He died for, they are first made alive legally to the Law, then secondarily they are made alive out of Spiritual death, because of Righteousness, not their own, but that of their Surety, the Last Adam.

Now back to the word draw, it also connotes being persuaded I persuade, Now what is Faith but a spiritual persuading; Now the greek word for Faith pistis:

pístis (from 3982/peithô, "persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith.

So the word draw in Jn 12:32 does also denote the impartation of persuading Faith, by the Life of the Spirit, so in other words, when Jesus says that as a result of His death or being lifted up, that all men shall be drawn to Him, He means they will come to Him in Faith, which agrees the Truth, the Just shall live by Faith ! 24

 

[brightfame52]

@VeritatisVerba

This death and resurrection made it possible for God to extend an offer

There you go, your faith is in a christ that made salvation possible. Thats not Faith in the Jesus Christ who actually saved His People from their sins, The Lord Jesus Christ.

So your faith lies in whatever turned a possible salvation into an actual salvation.

 

[VeritatisVerba]

@VeritatisVerba



There you go, your faith is in a christ that made salvation possible. Thats not Faith in the Jesus Christ who actually saved His People from their sins, The Lord Jesus Christ.

Stupid word games.

Do you suppose also that the guy who throws a flotation devise to a drowning man, doesn't get credit for saving the man's life because the drowning man grasped the ring?

So your faith lies in whatever turned a possible salvation into an actual salvation.

Faith is that thing!

How is it even possible for someone's mind to be so completely turned off? It seems like your eyes would stop blinking and you'd have to be reminded to breath!

I mean, this is literally what Scripture teaches: “your faith has saved you” (Luke 7:50; Mark 10:52). That is not a denial of Christ’s work; it is an affirmation of its purpose which is to justify the one who believes (Romans 5:1). Without faith, the work of Christ is not applied.

Further, as I've stated and restated without response from you, your doctrine makes faith totally meaningless! It is something that is done to you for no reason at all. Your version of salvation isn't about justice, it's arbitrary from start to finish, the very opposite of justice! One wonders why God would have needed to die at all

“God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)​

​

“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)​

​

“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)​

 

[VeritatisVerba]

Brings all to Faith !

Jn 12:32-33

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

If Christ by His death/being lifted up, draws all men unto Him, this word draw speaks to have been given life,or communicated life. The word draw is the greek word helkō means:

I.
to draw, drag off

II.
metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

It also means to persuade

I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all,

Yes the inward impelling and power to be come to Christ is nothing short of that quickening Life from out of the Last Adam 1 Cor 15:45

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Quickening means to make alive, makes movement / operation and it impels, so this drawing is by an impartation of quickening Life from the risen Christ, which is none other than His Spirit or the Holy Spirit, and the Spirit is Life Rom 8:10

And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

All for whom He died, doeth have imputed to them Righteousness, and That Righteousness demands Life Prov 11:19

As righteousness tendeth to life: so he that pursueth evil pursueth it to his own death.

Because of what Christ has done for sinners that He died for, they are first made alive legally to the Law, then secondarily they are made alive out of Spiritual death, because of Righteousness, not their own, but that of their Surety, the Last Adam.

Now back to the word draw, it also connotes being persuaded I persuade, Now what is Faith but a spiritual persuading; Now the greek word for Faith pistis:

pístis (from 3982/peithô, "persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith.

So the word draw in Jn 12:32 does also denote the impartation of persuading Faith, by the Life of the Spirit, so in other words, when Jesus says that as a result of His death or being lifted up, that all men shall be drawn to Him, He means they will come to Him in Faith, which agrees the Truth, the Just shall live by Faith ! 24

The Calvinist reads John 12:32 as if Jesus said, “I will irresistibly save everyone I died for.” But Jesus actually said, “I will draw all men unto me,” and verse 33 clarifies He's talking about the type of death He would die, not an irresistible inward call.

The problem for Calvinism is that if “draw” means irresistible saving grace, and Jesus draws all men, then everyone would be saved, which even Calvinists deny. So to avoid universalism, they redefine “all men” to mean “all kinds of men” (i.e., the elect from every group), which is not in the text.

Their only options are:

1. Admit Jesus draws all people, which contradicts limited atonement and irresistible grace.
2. Admit not all are drawn, which makes Jesus' statement false.
3. Redefine words until the verse fits their system, which is dishonest exegesis.

Either way, John 12:32 breaks Calvinism. It teaches universal scope, not irresistible effect.

Further, the Greek word helkō primarily means to drag, not to “persuade.” Even when it implies inward influence, Scripture shows people can resist (e.g., Acts 7:51, Matthew 23:37).

The appeal to I Corinthians 15:45 confuses resurrection power with salvation. That passage deals with resurrection bodies, not being born again. Similarly, Romans 8:10 refers to those already in Christ, not how they got there.

Finally, linking “draw” with “faith” through shared root meanings is theological sleight of hand. Faith comes by hearing (Romans 10:17), not by a pre-regenerating zap. Drawing is not equivalent to saving; it is invitation, not compulsion.

 

[BruceLeiter]

Can we at least agree on this:

Can we at least agree on this:

@jswauto, we can agree that God pursues us like the shepherd does for his one sheep out of his 100, but I object categorically to the word "reckless" in describing God and his love. That word has negative connotation that should never be associated with God. Dictionary.com defines the word "reckless" as:

1. utterly unconcerned about the consequences of some action; without caution; careless (usually followed byof ).
   to be reckless of danger.
   Synonyms: imprudent, negligent, incautious, heedless, rash
   Antonyms: careful
2. characterized by or proceeding from such carelessness.
   reckless extravagance.
   

Instead, God is purposeful and careful in choosing and saving believers with his love:

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

 

[brightfame52]

Stupid word games.

Do you suppose also that the guy who throws a flotation devise to a drowning man, doesn't get credit for saving the man's life because the drowning man grasped the ring?


Faith is that thing!

How is it even possible for someone's mind to be so completely turned off? It seems like your eyes would stop blinking and you'd have to be reminded to breath!

I mean, this is literally what Scripture teaches: “your faith has saved you” (Luke 7:50; Mark 10:52). That is not a denial of Christ’s work; it is an affirmation of its purpose which is to justify the one who believes (Romans 5:1). Without faith, the work of Christ is not applied.

Further, as I've stated and restated without response from you, your doctrine makes faith totally meaningless! It is something that is done to you for no reason at all. Your version of salvation isn't about justice, it's arbitrary from start to finish, the very opposite of justice! One wonders why God would have needed to die at all

“God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)​

​

“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)​

​

“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)​

So then you believe in your faith for salvation and not Christ, Christ only made it possible, but your faith saved you actually. All praises to your faith