Did Christ die for them that are perishing ?

VeritatisVerba

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1 Cor 1:18

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

2 Cor 2:14-15

14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

Both times we have them that are saved versus them that perish !

What makes the difference ? Is it Christs death or no ?
John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, BECAUSE he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 

Faith

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I thought most people considered "scriptures" to be both the written and spoken word of God? Catholics don't? Interesting.
Scripture and Tradition.
 

Faith

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You are asking the wrong person when you ask what they meant. All I can legitimately tell you is what they said, and they said, " The word [meaning the bible] is God" and they also said, " The word is another incarnation, a paper incarnation".
That’s weird.
 

BruceLeiter

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You are asking the wrong person when you ask what they meant. All I can legitimately tell you is what they said, and they said, " The word [meaning the bible] is God" and they also said, " The word is another incarnation, a paper incarnation".
Why do you even quote such outlying ideas, @MoreCoffee? That's not what most evangelical people would say.
 

jswauto

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It's a worthwhile thought, right? scripture is graphe and Word is Logos, and sometimes logos is a reference to what Christ reveals to the faithful by the Spirit when they read or hear the scriptures. MY caution stems from having half a dozen evangelical Christians tell me that the bible is God in the sense of being incarnate Word.
The bible is very clear on this. The Son of God is the Word of God!

Look at John 1:1:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

And look at how the time of the Gentiles ends, Rev 19:11-13:


11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

So consider these things as you read the Word of God. The Awesome Power going in you as you consume those Scriptures. That is Spiritual Nourishment with one serious Anointing on your life.
 
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brightfame52

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By His stripes we are healed or saved !

Many in false religion have denied that Christ's death alone saved those He died for, one of the most damaging scriptures against that damnable heresy is this one 1 Pet 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Now the healing comes by , His stripes which is equated with His bearing our sins in His body on the Tree !

By that Peter preaches that ye were healed, which word iaomai: to heal,

to make whole i. e. to free from errors and sins, to bring about (one's) salvation:

What can be a more plainer and concise testimony that the death of Christ alone effected and brought about our Salvation !
 

brightfame52

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John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, BECAUSE he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Christ obviously didnt die for the condemned, so thats why they dont believe. His death makes the difference on whether or not they are condemned, if He didnt die for you, you condemned by the law and will go to hell
 

VeritatisVerba

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The bible is very clear on this. The Son of God is the Word of God!

Look at John 1:1:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

And look at how the time of the Gentiles ends, Rev 19:11-13:


11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

So consider these things as you read the Word of God. The Awesome Power going in you as you consume those Scriptures. That is Spiritual Nourishment with one serious anointing on your life.
The English term "word" in this context is very nearly meaningless. It is very simply the worst possible translation of Logos that anyone could come up with that still had some modicum of a conceptual connection.

The Greek word "logos" was used in John's time to refer to the rational principle that orders and sustains the universe and this is what John's audience would have understood the first sentences of his gospel to be equating with Jesus. Logos came to mean this because the word itself refers to not merely to spoken words but to rational discourse, or the underlying rationale behind something. One can see intuitively how "logos" is related to the English word "logic" and, in fact, "logos" is where we get the suffix "ology" from. "Bio" (life) + "logos" (logic) becomes "biology" in English - the study of or the logic of life.

The English term "logic", however, in the technical sense of the term, refers most directly to the rules of proper thinking. In Greek this would be the word "λογική" (logikē), pronounced lo-gee-KAY. While this word is clearly a related word, Logos refers to the actual act of engaging in the act of proper thinking and rational discourse. In English, this would be the word "reason". Having said that, in common usage, the words "logic" and "reason" are very often used as perfect synonyms and because translators often like to use words that have a phonetic connection to the original language, the term "Logic" would likely be the "best" translation of "logos" into English (depending, of course, on the context).

Thus...

John 1:1 In the beginning was Logic, and Logic was with God, and Logic was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.​
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.​
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.​
14 And Logic became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.​

Now, there are some who object to such a translation thinking it improper to equate the living God with some abstract concept such as logic. But it should be noted that those who make such an objection never object to God being equated with the abstract concept of "Word", nor are they typically capable of offering any explanation as to what exactly it means to say "the Word was God". In other words, people who object on the grounds of referring to God as an abstraction, typically have no real problem with abstractions so long as the abstraction being used makes no sense.
This is, however, quite a new idea to most of those reading this and so let me just cite a couple of others who have used and acknowledged the validity of such a translation. Not that doing so helps to prove anything other than that this teaching is not unique to, nor can it's genesis be attributed to me. Indeed, this idea is as old as Christianity. As evidence of both its veracity and its antiquity, I offer the following quotations, the likes of which there are many...


"...this translation––may not only sound strange to devout ears, it may even sound obnoxious and offensive. But the shock only measures the devout person's distance from the language and thought of the Greek New Testament. Why it is offensive to call Christ Logic, when it does not offend to call him a word, is hard to explain. But such is often the case. Even Augustine, because he insisted that God is truth, has been subjected to the anti–intellectualistic accusation of "reducing" God to a proposition. At any rate, the strong intellectualism of the word Logos is seen in its several possible translations: to wit, computation, (financial) accounts, esteem, proportion and (mathematical) ratio, explanation, theory or argument, principle or law, reason, formula, debate, narrative, speech, deliberation, discussion, oracle, sentence, and wisdom.​
Any translation of John 1:1 that obscures this emphasis on mind or reason is a bad translation. And if anyone complains that the idea of ratio or debate obscures the personality of the second person of the Trinity, he should alter his concept of personality. In the beginning, then, was Logic." - Gordon H. Clark; Against The World. The Trinity Review, 1978-1988. [God And Logic, Gordon H. Clark, p. 52-56] John W. Robbins, Editor.​
"For not only among the Greeks did reason (Logos) prevail to condemn these things through Socrates, but also among the Barbarians were they condemned by Reason (or the Word, the Logos) Himself, who took shape, and became man, and was called Jesus Christ;" Justin Martyr: The First Apology of Justin Chapter V​
Logos n. < Gr, a word: see Logic 1 Gr. Philos. reason, thought of as constituting the controlling principle of the universe and as being manifested by speech 2 Christian Theol. the eternal thought or word of God, made incarnate in Jesus Christ: John 1 - Webster's Dictionary​
 
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VeritatisVerba

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Christ obviously didnt die for the condemned, so thats why they dont believe. His death makes the difference on whether or not they are condemned, if He didnt die for you, you condemned by the law and will go to hell
So says you.

Saying it doesn't make it so!

Unless you're God....

“But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.” (II Peter 2:1 NKJV)

“And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.” (I John 2:2 NKJV)

“For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” (I Timothy 2:5–6 NKJV)

“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.” (Hebrews 2:9 NKJV)

“Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29 NKJV)

“For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.” (II Corinthians 5:14–15 NKJV)

“For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.” (I Timothy 4:10 NKJV)

“For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.” (Titus 2:11 NKJV)

“Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.” (Romans 5:18 NKJV)

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16 NKJV)
 

VeritatisVerba

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Christ obviously didnt die for the condemned, so thats why they dont believe. His death makes the difference on whether or not they are condemned, if He didnt die for you, you condemned by the law and will go to hell
In addition to my previous post (above), there's another problem with your stated doctrine here.

According to your statement, Christ’s death determines who is saved and who is not. Yet if someone rejects Christ, then logically Christ must have been offered to them. One cannot reject what was never available. You cannot disbelieve in a Christ who never died for you. That would not be unbelief, it would be irrelevance.

Further, we read in Galatians 3:22...
“But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.”​

Every human being is condemned under the law, until they believe. That includes people for whom Christ died. His death made salvation possible for all, but belief is required for it to be applied. But you say that if Jesus didn’t die for you, then you’re condemned no matter what and that if He did die for you, you’ll believe no matter what. That makes faith irrelevant! It’s not a genuine decision, it's just a delayed effect of a prior decree. The Scripture, however, says faith is the condition of salvation, not its automatic outcome.

Worse for you, your statement contradicts Calvinism itself! In Calvinist theology, people are not condemned because Christ didn’t die for them; they are condemned because God did not elect them. The decree of election, not the atonement, determines who believes and who is saved. Christ’s death is meant to secure salvation for the elect, not to determine who the elect are. So to say, “Christ didn’t die for them, therefore they don’t believe” reverses Calvinist logic. It wrongly makes the atonement the cause of faith and condemnation, when Calvinism teaches that God’s sovereign decree is the cause of both.

Isn't it interesting the mental knots people are willing to twist their minds into? Your statements and most of the whole of your theology is the very thing that scripture refers to as "human reasoning". "Reasoning" that gets knotted into a quagmire of incoherent gibberish by the simple act of quoting one single verse of scripture and taking it to mean what it plainly states. It's the very epitome of catching the wise in their own craftiness! (1 Corinthians 3:19)

Isaiah 44:24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
And He who formed you from the womb:
“I am the Lord, who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;
25 Who frustrates the signs of the babblers,
And drives diviners mad;
Who turns wise men backward,
And makes their knowledge foolishness;
 
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BruceLeiter

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The English term "word" in this context is very nearly meaningless. It is very simply the worst possible translation of Logos that anyone could come up with that still had some modicum of a conceptual connection.

The Greek word "logos" was used in John's time to refer to the rational principle that orders and sustains the universe and this is what John's audience would have understood the first sentences of his gospel to be equating with Jesus. Logos came to mean this because the word itself refers to not merely to spoken words but to rational discourse, or the underlying rationale behind something. One can see intuitively how "logos" is related to the English word "logic" and, in fact, "logos" is where we get the suffix "ology" from. "Bio" (life) + "logos" (logic) becomes "biology" in English - the study of or the logic of life.

The English term "logic", however, in the technical sense of the term, refers most directly to the rules of proper thinking. In Greek this would be the word "λογική" (logikē), pronounced lo-gee-KAY. While this word is clearly a related word, Logos refers to the actual act of engaging in the act of proper thinking and rational discourse. In English, this would be the word "reason". Having said that, in common usage, the words "logic" and "reason" are very often used as perfect synonyms and because translators often like to use words that have a phonetic connection to the original language, the term "Logic" would likely be the "best" translation of "logos" into English (depending, of course, on the context).

Thus...

John 1:1 In the beginning was Logic, and Logic was with God, and Logic was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.​
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.​
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.​
14 And Logic became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.​

Now, there are some who object to such a translation thinking it improper to equate the living God with some abstract concept such as logic. But it should be noted that those who make such an objection never object to God being equated with the abstract concept of "Word", nor are they typically capable of offering any explanation as to what exactly it means to say "the Word was God". In other words, people who object on the grounds of referring to God as an abstraction, typically have no real problem with abstractions so long as the abstraction being used makes no sense.
This is, however, quite a new idea to most of those reading this and so let me just cite a couple of others who have used and acknowledged the validity of such a translation. Not that doing so helps to prove anything other than that this teaching is not unique to, nor can it's genesis be attributed to me. Indeed, this idea is as old as Christianity. As evidence of both its veracity and its antiquity, I offer the following quotations, the likes of which there are many...


"...this translation––may not only sound strange to devout ears, it may even sound obnoxious and offensive. But the shock only measures the devout person's distance from the language and thought of the Greek New Testament. Why it is offensive to call Christ Logic, when it does not offend to call him a word, is hard to explain. But such is often the case. Even Augustine, because he insisted that God is truth, has been subjected to the anti–intellectualistic accusation of "reducing" God to a proposition. At any rate, the strong intellectualism of the word Logos is seen in its several possible translations: to wit, computation, (financial) accounts, esteem, proportion and (mathematical) ratio, explanation, theory or argument, principle or law, reason, formula, debate, narrative, speech, deliberation, discussion, oracle, sentence, and wisdom.​
Any translation of John 1:1 that obscures this emphasis on mind or reason is a bad translation. And if anyone complains that the idea of ratio or debate obscures the personality of the second person of the Trinity, he should alter his concept of personality. In the beginning, then, was Logic." - Gordon H. Clark; Against The World. The Trinity Review, 1978-1988. [God And Logic, Gordon H. Clark, p. 52-56] John W. Robbins, Editor.​
"For not only among the Greeks did reason (Logos) prevail to condemn these things through Socrates, but also among the Barbarians were they condemned by Reason (or the Word, the Logos) Himself, who took shape, and became man, and was called Jesus Christ;" Justin Martyr: The First Apology of Justin Chapter V​
Logos n. < Gr, a word: see Logic 1 Gr. Philos. reason, thought of as constituting the controlling principle of the universe and as being manifested by speech 2 Christian Theol. the eternal thought or word of God, made incarnate in Jesus Christ: John 1 - Webster's Dictionary​
@VeritatisVerba, you make the mistake of defining the word "logos" in terms of the culture of the Greeks and a secular dictionary, whereas the best way to define who or what the "Word" or "Logos" is by the whole Gospel of John. Since God inspired the Bible, we need to define its words the way they are used in the Word of God. In this case, the words and actions of Jesus in the gospel show us who the Word is, not some extra-biblical sources. He is fully God with all power to give us faith and eternal life and fully man when he "became flesh" to bring to us the God the Father's forgiveness. And he is one of the three Persons of the one God, mysterious and yet revealed.
 

VeritatisVerba

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@VeritatisVerba, you make the mistake of defining the word "logos" in terms of the culture of the Greeks and a secular dictionary, whereas the best way to define who or what the "Word" or "Logos" is by the whole Gospel of John.
No. The book of John is not a dictionary, nor is there any evidence that John was using the term to mean something other than his intended audience would have understood it to mean when they read it.

Since God inspired the Bible, we need to define its words the way they are used in the Word of God.
John STARTS his gospel with this term. There is NOTHING to suggest that it would mean something peculiar to his use of it. If his intent had been to redefine the term, he would not have launched his gospel with it's naked use but would have included clarification of his intent, which is utterly absent and unnecessary to boot.

In this case, the words and actions of Jesus in the gospel show us who the Word is, not some extra-biblical sources. He is fully God with all power to give us faith and eternal life and fully man when he "became flesh" to bring to us the God the Father's forgiveness. And he is one of the three Persons of the one God, mysterious and yet revealed.
This is your doctrine. The first chapter of the book of John doesn't contradict the Trinity doctrine, but it isn't teaching it either. Nor would it doing so necessitate any alteration to the normal meaning of the word "logos".

In short, what you're implicitly proposing is eisegesis, not exegesis, but we aren't to conform scripture into whatever way we need it to be in order to maintain our theology (eisegesis). On the contrary, we are to conform our theology to the plain reading of scripture (exegesis).

No one reading John's opening passages would have gotten from it anything other than that John was equating Jesus with the rational principle that orders and sustains the universe, which is a good thing because that's exactly and explicitly what he was doing.

That, by the way, isn't only what John's contemporary audience would have understood him to be saying, it also happens to be true - which is why he said it. In other words, there isn't any need to think that John meant something other than what the word "logos" normally meant at the time he wrote it.

The fact is that God's word is written with WORDS. Words mean things. We don't get to ignore what the words mean because we don't like the conclusion we come to when we pay attention to such things. If such was allowed then there'd be no way to falsify any wild-eyed doctrine anyone cared to contrive.
 
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Frankj

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Something all should consider: Worldly wisdom is not Godly wisdom, one will lead you on the narrow road and the other will lead you astray from it.
 

brightfame52

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So says you.

Saying it doesn't make it so!

Unless you're God....

“But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.” (II Peter 2:1 NKJV)

“And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.” (I John 2:2 NKJV)

“For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” (I Timothy 2:5–6 NKJV)

“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.” (Hebrews 2:9 NKJV)

“Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29 NKJV)

“For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.” (II Corinthians 5:14–15 NKJV)

“For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.” (I Timothy 4:10 NKJV)

“For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.” (Titus 2:11 NKJV)

“Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.” (Romans 5:18 NKJV)

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16 NKJV)
Its obvious you dont believe Christ death saved them He died for. So how is that Faith in Christ ?
 

brightfame52

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@VeritatisVerba

Every human being is condemned under the law, until they believe.

No one Christ died for is condemned by the law, He already was condemned in their place. Every sinner born into this world that Christ died for, is born into this world Justified from all sin and condemnation, and its them that are given the Gift to believe on His Name. Everyone else is born condemned by the law, and that forever
 

jswauto

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By His stripes we are healed or saved !

Many in false religion have denied that Christ's death alone saved those He died for, one of the most damaging scriptures against that damnable heresy is this one 1 Pet 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Now the healing comes by , His stripes which is equated with His bearing our sins in His body on the Tree !

By that Peter preaches that ye were healed, which word iaomai: to heal,

to make whole i. e. to free from errors and sins, to bring about (one's) salvation:

What can be a more plainer and concise testimony that the death of Christ alone effected and brought about our Salvation !
That fact that you must repent and give your life to the Lord to receive it!!
 

jswauto

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The end of the world, I believe its here ! Do you believe the True Gospel the Apostles preached ?
Mathew 24:

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

When Heaven is full, the end will come.

Here's the Gospel you requested:


Peter preaches to the Gentiles

Acts 10:

42And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. 43To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

Phillip baptizes the eunuch:

Acts 8:

14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
35Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him

Paul baptizes the jailer and his family:

Acts 16:

28But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here. 29Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, 30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 32And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. 33And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
 
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VeritatisVerba

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Its obvious you dont believe Christ death saved them He died for. So how is that Faith in Christ ?
It's obvious that you resort to straw man arguments instead of responding to direct biblical arguments that explicitly falsify your doctrine.
 

VeritatisVerba

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@VeritatisVerba



No one Christ died for is condemned by the law, He already was condemned in their place. Every sinner born into this world that Christ died for, is born into this world Justified from all sin and condemnation, and its them that are given the Gift to believe on His Name. Everyone else is born condemned by the law, and that forever
So says you.

You're arguing against the explicit statement of scripture.
 
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