Denominationalism VS nondenominational Churches.

[Faith]

Scripture does not mention it.

Tough. like someone else pointed out, it also doesn’t mention the Internet, yet here we are.

 

[1689Dave]

Tough.

Faith comes by hearing the word. How can you have genuine faith if scripture doesn't mention it?

 

[Faith]

If anyone here knows about astronomy can you reply to my question in Science and Technology? It’s titled Spiral Galaxies.

 

[Faith]

Faith comes by hearing the word. How can you have genuine faith if scripture doesn't mention it?

Tradition.

 

[Josiah]

Scripture does not mention it.

@1689Dave


So, we can't do anything unless it's at least mentioned in the Bible. That's your premise. But I'd be willing to bet good money you reject your own apologetic while requiring that everyone else do what you reject.

Show in the bible where the following is specifically mentioned:

1. Books.
2. Computers.
3. Youth groups and youth pastors
4. Baptism tanks
5. Communion with little cut up pieces of Weber's White Bread and little plastic cups of Welch's Grape Juice.
6. Altar calls.
7. The Sinner's Prayer.
8. Church websites.
9. The internet

Let's just start with those. Quote the verbatim verse that mentions these and perhaps also that Christians before 400 did and used these.

How can you have genuine faith if scripture doesn't mention it?

Congregations and denominations of them are not faith, they are practice. It reflects what Christians DO, not what they BELIEVE.

Friend, you have not shown one Scripture that remotely suggests it's wrong for congregations to cooperate. Yes, it IS wrong to be divided in doctrine but it's absurd to argue that every non-denom fully and absolutely agrees with every other non-denom congregation on the planet. Indeed, a denomination holding all to the same faith probably leads to congregations agreeing more with others, not less. The 6000 congregations of my denomination are all in perfect agreement with the over 600 pages of our mutual statement of faith. Is your non-denom in equal agreement with over 6000 other non-denoms, on a statement at least 600 pages long?



See post 78



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[Albion]

Scripture does not mention it.

It certainly does. What Scripture does not do is establish any age requirement such as the churches of the Anabaptist tradition have produced, completely arbitrarily.

 

[1689Dave]

It certainly does. What Scripture does not do is establish any age requirement such as the churches of the Anabaptist tradition have produced, completely arbitrarily.

Where do you find infant emersion in water?

 

[1689Dave]

@1689Dave


So, we can't do anything unless it's at least mentioned in the Bible. That's your premise. But I'd be willing to bet good money you reject your own apologetic while requiring that everyone else do what you reject.

Show in the bible where the following is specifically mentioned:

1. Books.
2. Computers.
3. Youth groups and youth pastors
4. Baptism tanks
5. Communion with little cut up pieces of Weber's White Bread and little plastic cups of Welch's Grape Juice.
6. Altar calls.
7. The Sinner's Prayer.
8. Church websites.
9. The internet

Let's just start with those. Quote the verbatim verse that mentions these and perhaps also that Christians before 400 did and used these.




Congregations and denominations of them are not faith, they are practice. It reflects what Christians DO, not what they BELIEVE.

Friend, you have not shown one Scripture that remotely suggests it's wrong for congregations to cooperate. Yes, it IS wrong to be divided in doctrine but it's absurd to argue that every non-denom fully and absolutely agrees with every other non-denom congregation on the planet. Indeed, a denomination holding all to the same faith probably leads to congregations agreeing more with others, not less. The 6000 congregations of my denomination are all in perfect agreement with the over 600 pages of our mutual statement of faith. Is your non-denom in equal agreement with over 6000 other non-denoms, on a statement at least 600 pages long?



See post 78



.

I can furnish scripture for all that I do. It seems most cannot.

 

[1689Dave]

Tradition.

The Pharisees ran on tradition and Jesus rebuked them for it.

 

[Albion]

Where do you find infant emersion in water?

It's immersion, not emersion or submersion.

We agree, don't we, that baptism is done with water? We do not know how Jesus was baptized by John exactly, but it was done in the Jordan River.

There are several NT references to entire households being baptized on the profession of faith by the head of the household, and that has been a normal procedure in Christian churches for nearly two millennia now.

The claim that's been sold to members of Anabaptist and fundamentalist churches that we shouldn't think these households included any children (!) -- even though almost all households in that time and region did--but instead that the reference to the whole household must have meant the servants were the additional people baptized isn't a credible theory.

That's the case for two reasons: 1) that scenario is far less likely than that the average family included minor children, and 2) if it were true that the other members of the household who were baptized were just servants, and all of them adults, this scenario would assume that the head of the household could speak for them, which is precisely the reason given by anti-paedobaptists today to refuse baptism to young children.

 

[1689Dave]

It's immersion, not emersion or submersion.

We agree, don't we, that baptism is done with water? We do not know how Jesus was baptized by John exactly, but it was done in the Jordan River.

There are several NT references to entire households being baptized on the profession of faith by the head of the household, and that has been a normal procedure in Christian churches for nearly two millennia now.

The claim that's been sold to members of Anabaptist and fundamentalist churches that we shouldn't think these households included any children (!) -- even though almost all households in that time and region did--but instead that the reference to the whole household must have meant the servants were the additional people baptized isn't credible.

That's the case for two reasons: 1) that scenario is far less likely than that the average family included minor children, and 2) if it were true that the other members of the household who were baptized were just servants, and all adults, this scenario would assume that the head of the household could speak for them, and that is exactly the reason given by anti-paedobaptists to refuse baptism to young children.

But. scripture never mentions it.

 

[Josiah]

But. scripture never mentions it.

@1689Dave


Your claim that Scripture forbids denominations is what is unsubstantiated. And friend, your felt need to change the subject doesn't help your case.

So, we can't do anything unless it's at least mentioned in the Bible. That's your entire apologetic on this point of congregations cooperating and associating with others (denominations). But I'd be willing to bet good money you reject your own apologetic while requiring that everyone else do what you reject.

Show in the bible where the following is specifically mentioned:

1. Books.
2. Computers.
3. Youth groups and youth pastors
4. Baptism tanks
5. Communion with little cut up pieces of Weber's White Bread and little plastic cups of Welch's Grape Juice.
6. Altar calls.
7. The Sinner's Prayer.
8. Church websites.
9. The internet

Let's just start with those. Quote the verbatim verse that mentions these and perhaps also that Christians before 400 did and used these.


Friend, you have not shown one Scripture that remotely suggests it's wrong for congregations to associate and cooperate. Yes, it IS wrong to be divided in doctrine but it's absurd to argue that every non-denom fully and absolutely agrees with every other non-denom congregation on the planet. Indeed, a denomination holding all to the same faith probably leads to congregations agreeing more with others, not less. The 6000 congregations of my denomination are all in perfect agreement with the over 600 pages of our mutual statement of faith. Is your non-denom in equal agreement with over 6000 other non-denoms, on a statement at least 600 pages long?



See post 78



.

 

[1689Dave]

@1689Dave


Your claim that Scripture forbids denominations is what is unsubstantiated. And friend, your felt need to change the subject doesn't help your case.

So, we can't do anything unless it's at least mentioned in the Bible. That's your entire apologetic on this point of congregations cooperating and associating with others (denominations). But I'd be willing to bet good money you reject your own apologetic while requiring that everyone else do what you reject.

Show in the bible where the following is specifically mentioned:

1. Books.
2. Computers.
3. Youth groups and youth pastors
4. Baptism tanks
5. Communion with little cut up pieces of Weber's White Bread and little plastic cups of Welch's Grape Juice.
6. Altar calls.
7. The Sinner's Prayer.
8. Church websites.
9. The internet

Let's just start with those. Quote the verbatim verse that mentions these and perhaps also that Christians before 400 did and used these.



Friend, you have not shown one Scripture that remotely suggests it's wrong for congregations to associate and cooperate. Yes, it IS wrong to be divided in doctrine but it's absurd to argue that every non-denom fully and absolutely agrees with every other non-denom congregation on the planet. Indeed, a denomination holding all to the same faith probably leads to congregations agreeing more with others, not less. The 6000 congregations of my denomination are all in perfect agreement with the over 600 pages of our mutual statement of faith. Is your non-denom in equal agreement with over 6000 other non-denoms, on a statement at least 600 pages long?



See post 78



.

Paul teaches against denomination when he says; “For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?” 1 Corinthians 3:4 (KJV 1900)

Jesus rebukes those who add to his word.

“And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.” Luke 4:4 (KJV 1900)

Scripture never mentions the Monarchical Bishop's office that came up with Institutional churches. If it is not scripture, you cannot have faith that comes from the Word. And Paul says whatever is not of faith is sin.

Everything you do must be of faith or it is sin.

“And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.” Romans 14:23 (KJV 1900)

All that I do is in faith or I do not do it.

 

[Josiah]

Paul teaches against denomination when he says; “For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?” 1 Corinthians 3:4 (KJV 1900)

No. Obviously not. As you prove by quoting the verse.

Paul is saying NOTHING about Christians associating with others (congregations) or congregations associating with others (denominations). He is denouncing theological division among CHRISTIANS. Yes, it IS wrong to be divided in doctrine but it's absurd to argue that every non-denom congregation fully and absolutely agrees with every other non-denom congregation on the planet on all matters. Indeed, a denomination holding all to the same faith probably leads to congregations agreeing more with others, not less. The 6000 congregations of my denomination are all in perfect agreement with the over 600 pages of our mutual statement of faith. Is your non-denom in equal agreement with over 6000 other non-denoms, on a statement at least 600 pages long ?????

Jesus rebukes those who add to his word.

As in "Congregations are forbidden to associate and cooperate?"

Scripture never mentions ...

1. Books.
2. Computers.
3. Youth groups and youth pastors
4. Baptism tanks
5. Communion with little cut up pieces of Weber's White Bread and little plastic cups of Welch's Grape Juice.
6. Altar calls.
7. The Sinner's Prayer.
8. Church websites.
9. The internet
10. Forbidding those under the age of we-won't-tell-you from baptism.
11. Christian discussion forums.
And a few thousand other things.

I reject your apologetic that if Scripture doesn't mention something, ergo it's sinful, wrong and forbidden.




.

 

[1689Dave]

No. Obviously not. As you prove by quoting the verse.

Paul is saying NOTHING about Christians associating with others (congregations) or congregations associating with others (denominations). He is denouncing theological division among CHRISTIANS. Yes, it IS wrong to be divided in doctrine but it's absurd to argue that every non-denom fully and absolutely agrees with every other non-denom congregation on the planet. Indeed, a denomination holding all to the same faith probably leads to congregations agreeing more with others, not less. The 6000 congregations of my denomination are all in perfect agreement with the over 600 pages of our mutual statement of faith. Is your non-denom in equal agreement with over 6000 other non-denoms, on a statement at least 600 pages long?????




As in "Congregations are forbidden to associate and cooperate?"




1. Books.
2. Computers.
3. Youth groups and youth pastors
4. Baptism tanks
5. Communion with little cut up pieces of Weber's White Bread and little plastic cups of Welch's Grape Juice.
6. Altar calls.
7. The Sinner's Prayer.
8. Church websites.
9. The internet
10. Forbidding those under the age of we-won't-tell-you from baptism.
11. Christian discussion forums.
And a few thousand other things.

I reject your apologetic that if Scripture doesn't mention something, ergo it's sinful, wrong and forbidden.




.

We are not talking about congregations independent of each other. But Institutional denominations that have a history of killing congregations.

 

[Albion]

We are not talking about congregations independent of each other. But Institutional denominations that have a history of killing congregations.

Wow. Does that ever cry out for specifics and examples!

 

[1689Dave]

Wow. Does that ever cry out for specifics and examples!

Do a search on the Spanish inquisition, and the slaughter of the Anabaptists. The Church of England and the numerous martyrs. It's ugly but speaks volumes.

 

[Josiah]

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But Institutional denominations that have a history of killing congregations.

Then you are not opposed to congregations associating and cooperating (denominations) but denominations that "kill" congregations. Apples/oranges.

I wonder why you aren't opposed to non-denom congregations that "kill" congregations, why are non-denomns exempt from your rebuke? Why are the only congregations that "kill" a part of a denomination and it is this association that makes them murders? And I wonder if you could list all the congregations that the LCMS (my denomination) "killed?"



.

 

[1689Dave]

.





Then you are not opposed to congregations associating and cooperating (denominations) but denominations that "kill" congregations. Apples/oranges.

I wonder why you aren't opposed to non-denom congregations that "kill" congregations, why are non-denomns exempt from your rebuke? Why are the only congregations that "kill" a part of a denomination and it is this association that makes them murders? And I wonder if you could list all the congregations that the LCMS (my denomination) "killed?"



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Denominations are unscriptural. Congregations independent of each other are the Biblical model. Look at the bloody history of the Institutional churches, and then try to see which is scriptural.

 

[Josiah]

Denominations are unscriptural.

But you can't find any Scripture that so states. Okay.

Paul is saying NOTHING about Christians associating with others (congregations) or congregations associating with others (denominations). This you keep proving. He is denouncing theological division among CHRISTIANS. Yes, it IS wrong to be divided in doctrine but it's absurd to argue that every non-denom congregation fully and absolutely agrees with every other non-denom congregation on the planet on all matters. Indeed, a denomination holding all to the same faith probably leads to congregations agreeing more with others, not less. The 6000 congregations of my denomination are all in perfect agreement with the over 600 pages of our mutual statement of faith. Is your non-denom in equal agreement with over 6000 other non-denoms, on a statement at least 600 pages long ????? Yes or no?

Congregations independent of each other are the Biblical model.

Well, there may have been no denominations before the 4th Century, but that doesn't mean denominations are wrong anymore than books, Computers. Youth groups and youth pastors, Baptism tanks, Communion with little cut up pieces of Weber's White Bread and little plastic cups of Welch's Grape Juice, Altar calls, Catechisms, The Sinner's Prayer, Church websites, The internet, Forbidding those under the age of we-won't-tell-you from baptism, Christian discussion forums and a few thousand other things. Since you reject that we should do only as shown in the Bible (and not what is not) I agree with you and thus reject your entire point and premise here.



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