Define "works"

[ImaginaryDay2]

It's often bandied about (sometimes as a jab, sometimes not) that our salvation is not based on "works". When (if) you say that salvation is not dependent on "works", what do you mean? How do you define "works"; rather, if I saw you "working", what would you be doing?

 

[MoreCoffee]

It's often bandied about (sometimes as a jab, sometimes not) that our salvation is not based on "works". When (if) you say that salvation is not dependent on "works", what do you mean? How do you define "works"; rather, if I saw you "working", what would you be doing?

You'd be obeying God - doing something commanded or asked or advised. As, for example, in James 2:21 "Was not our father Abraham justified by means of works, by offering his son Isaac upon the altar?"

 

[MennoSota]

It's often bandied about (sometimes as a jab, sometimes not) that our salvation is not based on "works". When (if) you say that salvation is not dependent on "works", what do you mean? How do you define "works"; rather, if I saw you "working", what would you be doing?

I'm confused. Are you talking about salvation or are you talking about service?

Do you not know what grace is?

Works and grace are like oil and water...they don't mix.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

I'm asking for the poster's definition of "works". If you say "by grace and not by works" what do you mean by "works"? Giving? Tithing? Feeding the poor? Shoveling the walk for the disabled senior next door? A statement such as "Yes, Lord, I accept you"?
I ask because "works" seems to be one of those nebulous (unclear, vague, or ill-defined) words that is subjective to the person using it. And much of the time, "not by works" just flows so easily from the mind to the mouth that I wonder if the speaker ever considers what s/he means by that.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

You'd be obeying God - doing something commanded or asked or advised. As, for example, in James 2:21 "Was not our father Abraham justified by means of works, by offering his son Isaac upon the altar?"

An excellent point. So our response in obedience to God's command is different from "works" (or some variation of it - i.e. faith making the difference)?

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

I'm confused. Are you talking about salvation or are you talking about service?

Let's say 'both'. How would you define "works" in those contexts?

Do you not know what grace is?

Yes, I do.

Works and grace are like oil and water...they don't mix.

Hmmm... See my response to MC. Does that make a difference, or would you hold the same opinion?

 

[MoreCoffee]

An excellent point. So our response in obedience to God's command is different from "works" (or some variation of it - i.e. faith making the difference)?

Works is doing (saying counts as doing in some circumstances) things. Good works is doing what God calls us to do. Faith is part of the doing, some say doing is part of the faith but that's the same really because I am not speaking about sets and subsets. working and believing are inextricably intermingled so that they cannot be separated in the godly. It is a little bit like the two natures of Christ being one person. He would not be Jesus Christ if he were God and not human nor would he be Jesus Christ if he were human and not God because to be Jesus Christ he is and must be God and human in one person. Faith and good works are one in a Christian.

There is another kind of working in the scriptures. It's doing works of the Law. And there's another kind of faith in the holy scriptures. It's believing and not doing. It is like the belief/faith of demons who believe and shudder in fear because they do not do good and face a severe judgement for not doing what they know is right and good.

In English we have a word for believing and we have a word for trusting-belief-that-works-in-love and it's "faith". Faith is used as a compound of belief, trust, fidelity, and other things that are too subtle to easily define. In Greek the word for "belief" and "faith" is the same it is πίστις (pistis). In holy scripture it is hard work for a translator to decide if he ought to write "belief" or "faith", "believe" or "have faith in", and so forth.

Faith works good things otherwise it is not faith. When faith stops working good things it ceases to exist.

 

[Imalive]

It's often bandied about (sometimes as a jab, sometimes not) that our salvation is not based on "works". When (if) you say that salvation is not dependent on "works", what do you mean? How do you define "works"; rather, if I saw you "working", what would you be doing?

That you think you get saved by keeping the law, circumcision, keeping sabbath, not wearing 2 fabrics of clothes or not going to the shop on sunday like the reformed in Holland do w their new Judaism. Any work you do to get saved without His offer that's enough. Accepting His offer is not a 'work to get saved without Him', that's nonsense or being obedient once He writes the laws on your heart, that's normal, if you don't do that your faith is dead.

 

[Albion]

It's often bandied about (sometimes as a jab, sometimes not) that our salvation is not based on "works". When (if) you say that salvation is not dependent on "works", what do you mean? How do you define "works"; rather, if I saw you "working", what would you be doing?

Theologically speaking, "Works" or "good Works" means deeds that are believed to earn merit in God's eyes (for example, "Giving? Tithing? Feeding the poor? Shoveling the walk for the disabled senior"). We are not speaking of everything that takes effort, or ritual, or somthing that is done out of necessity. Anyone who has a real Faith will perform Works, but the question is whether they contribute to our chances of obtaining salvation.

To a Catholic, life is a non-stop matter of accumulating enough good Works that will cause God to account you as righteous. To a reformed Christian, the good Works were done by Christ for us. We appropriate that goodness, that merit, by Faith in Him as Lord and as our Savior.

 

[MoreCoffee]

...
To a Catholic, life is a non-stop matter of accumulating enough good Works that will cause God to account you as righteous. ...

The life of a Catholic is not "a non-stop matter of accumulating enough good Works that will cause God to account you as righteous".

Good works are Charitable actions by which we come to the aid of our neighbours in their bodily and spiritual needs. The spiritual good works include instructing, advising, consoling, comforting, forgiving, and patiently forbearing. Corporal good works include feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned, sheltering the homeless, and burying the dead. Corporal good works are the things Jesus Christ mentioned in Matthew 25:31-46 and that Tobit did for his countrymen in exile in Nineveh. Spiritual good works are the things that Christians are urged to do for others in the new testament and that were also urged upon the Israelites when Moses and the prophets exhorted them to do good and turn away from the wickedness of the surrounding nations. (see the CCC glossary under "Works of Mercy")

Good works are meritorious but they do not earn one a place in heaven nor are they the cause for God accounting one as just/righteous. Good works are the life of faith and without them faith is dead - a mere belief that the believer intends never to act upon. Faith and good works are like body and spirit, one cannot be a believer without good works and good works are not done without faith. Faith working in love is what pleases God but even faith working in love cannot earn heaven. Heaven is given as a grace - a gift - by God to the faithful. It comes to them by the generosity of Christ who became a man to save the world. Nothing a human being can do will earn heaven.

 

[Albion]

The life of a Catholic is not "a non-stop matter of accumulating enough good Works that will cause God to account you as righteous".

Well, actually it is. That is to say, this is what a Catholic faces if he truly believes what his church is teaching him. I know, of course, that many Catholics don't do that--or else are unaware of what it is that their church officially teaches.

Good works are Charitable actions by which we come to the aid of our neighbours in their bodily and spiritual needs. The spiritual good works include instructing, advising, consoling, comforting, forgiving, and patiently forbearing. Corporal good works include feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned, sheltering the homeless, and burying the dead. Corporal good works are the things Jesus Christ mentioned in Matthew 25:31-46 and that Tobit did for his countrymen in exile in Nineveh. Spiritual good works are the things that Christians are urged to do for others in the new testament and that were also urged upon the Israelites when Moses and the prophets exhorted them to do good and turn away from the wickedness of the surrounding nations.

Yes. That's in accord with what I said I my post above. I merely thought that it wasn't necessary to write an entire paragraph on the matter or list every possible good work for the average reader to be able to recognize the point.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Well, actually it is. That is to say, this is what a Catholic faces if he truly believes what his church is teaching him. I know, of course, that many Catholics do not--or else are unaware of what their church does officially teach.


Yes. That's in accord with what I said I my post above. I merely thought that it wasn't necessary to write an entire paragraph or list every possible good work for the average reader to get the point.

Good works are meritorious but they do not earn one a place in heaven nor are they the cause for God accounting one as just/righteous. Good works are the life of faith and without them faith is dead - a mere belief that the believer intends never to act upon. Faith and good works are like body and spirit, one cannot be a believer without good works and good works are not done without faith. Faith working in love is what pleases God but even faith working in love cannot earn heaven. Heaven is given as a grace - a gift - by God to the faithful. It comes to them by the generosity of Christ who became a man to save the world. Nothing a human being can do will earn heaven.

 

[Imalive]

Well, actually it is. That is to say, this is what a Catholic faces if he truly believes what his church is teaching him. I know, of course, that many Catholics don't do that--or else are unaware of what it is that their church officially teaches.


Yes. That's in accord with what I said I my post above. I merely thought that it wasn't necessary to write an entire paragraph on the matter or list every possible good work for the average reader to be able to recognize the point.

Well if I look it up they don't teach that.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0

 

[Albion]

Actually, they do, and there's no doubt about it.

As is often the case with church teachings that modern people don't accept anymore, the official teachings of the church have been fudged or covered with double talk so that the church can say both that she never changes any doctrines AND ALSO that she doesn't really teach what people have long known that she does teach.

Purgatory is a good example. No Catholic today wants to believe what every Catholic was taught for the previous 500 or so years, so this 'place' that is supposed to be as bad as Hell and might last, for the individual sent there, until the end of time...has gradually been morphed into what is called the "celestial washroom." That is to say, no purging in Purgatory but just a quick re-orientation session. Or, take the Sacrifice of the Mass. Nowadays the sacrifice, which was called by that word throughout RC history is said to be just a "re-presentation" of the one sacrifice of the Cross (as though simply referring to a previous sacrifice ever availed anything to any people who offered sacrifices, OT Hebrews included, in the absence of a new victim to sacrifice).

As for the link you gave, there the same double talk is employed in the face of mounting skepticism about this particular doctrine. However, we can see that the denial of the Faith + Works teaching is followed by a concession to the truth--

"Catholic theology refers to this growth in righteousness using the term justification, so, in Catholic language, justification isn’t something that happens just at the beginning of the Christian life. It happens over the course of the Christian life."

Translation: If you have Faith, you must also do good Works, in order to acquire Grace sufficient to be saved. If you sin, you lose the Grace and must go to Confession in order to get straight again, because otherwise you'd die in your sins, even if you'd accepted Christ as Lord and Savior and been baptized. Faith and Works are effective, in other words, and essential. To a reformed Christian, as we know, Faith justifies (as the Bible teaches) and Works are a necessary consequence of a living Faith, but they do not alter or enhance our chances of salvation in themselves.

 

[Josiah]

IMO, "good works" is not the same as "good deeds." It does NOT mean "be a good Boy Scout." My Buddhist coworker has a life full of good deeds and helping little ole' ladies across the street - and that IS "good" and DOES matter in terms of our relationship with man (and little ole' ladies). But it's not "good works"


"Good works" are something a CHRISTIAN is called to do because he/she is now a child of God. It is, in its boardest sense, the whole of the Christian life, the essence of being "Christ like." And it is summed up by the Great Commandment: "Love one another just as I first loved you.... by this will all the world know you are Mine - if you reveal this love."


Christian good works can only be performed by a Christian (and thus CANNOT have anything to do with becoming a Christian). A Buddhist helping a little ole' lady across the street and a Christian helping a little ole' lady across the street may APPEAR the same to man but not to God. The doer is different.... and the Christian has all "sin" connected to such forgiven.


Some Scripture:

Ephesians 2:10 with Titus 2:14
Colossians 1:9-12
Titus 3:14
2 Peter 1:3-8



Soli Deo Gloria



- Josiah



.

 

[Albion]

Well, what you're saying there is that 1) you reject the Catholic view of the matter in favor of the Protestant view (works are an inevitable consequence of Faith but do not contribute, in themselves, to our prospects for salvation) and 2) you want to qualify the word "good" to make clear that works of supererogation are not actually good, although the same actions would be considered good coming from a born-again Christian.

 

[MoreCoffee]

...
"Catholic theology refers to this growth in righteousness using the term justification, so, in Catholic language, justification isn’t something that happens just at the beginning of the Christian life. It happens over the course of the Christian life."
...

Catholics define justification this way

CCC 1989-1996

The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.

Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life: But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.

Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent: When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.

Justification is the most excellent work of God's love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that "the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth," because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away." He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.

The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man," justification entails the sanctification of his whole being: Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.

Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favour, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.​

 

[Albion]

The topic is not "Justification."

 

[mtzopera]

Our work is shown through our salvation. Our fruits. If you follow Jesus Christ of Nazareth you will be guided by the Holy Spirit who in turn will lead you into all truth which will reflect in your works. Some denominations teach a reverse of this. That our works will lead us into salvation. This is not biblical. As we grow into knowing the Lord, we and others will see works appear without much effort for as we get closer to our Lord we will walk as He does.

 

[Albion]

Our work is shown through our salvation. Our fruits. If you follow Jesus Christ of Nazareth you will be guided by the Holy Spirit who in turn will lead you into all truth which will reflect in your works. Some denominations teach a reverse of this. That our works will lead us into salvation. This is not biblical. As we grow into knowing the Lord, we and others will see works appear without much effort for as we get closer to our Lord we will walk as He does.

It's generally agreed that Works cannot lead us to Faith, but after conversion, is it the case that Faith and Works, both of them and taken together, determine whether or not we are going to be saved? That's really the issue here.