concupiscentia

[MoreCoffee]

There really is that link built into the grammar of both Latin and Greek:

Greek: ἐφ᾿ ᾧ = EPI + hW = upon which (which = death)

"And in this manner did death enter into all men, upon which all have sinned..."

Latin: in quo = in which (which = death)

Find an old fashioned Latin Priest and ask him about in quo...

Exegesis is grammatical, and forms the basis of opinions of textual meanings...

The Greek "upon which" is livelier, implying that death is the base upon which sin erupts...

The Latin "in which" is more static and carries the idea of the enclosure of sin in death...

Both dis-affirm your understanding...

You want "upon which" to mean "because"...

In Greek that would be OTI...


Arsenios

I know this is a wordy quote in reply but it comes from a lexicon ...

(II) With a dat.:

(A) Place in the same sense and circumstances as epí with the gen. so that the Greek poets often used the gen. and dat. interchangeably, while in prose the dat. is more usual.

(1) After words implying rest, upon, on, in (Mat 14:8, Mat 14:11, "upon a plate" [a.t.]; Mar 2:4; Mar 4:38; Mar 6:39, Mar 6:55; Mar 11:7; Luk 12:44; Luk 21:6; Joh 11:38; Act 27:44; Rev 19:14); implying close proximity, contact, upon, at, close by (Mat 24:33; Joh 4:6, "by the fountain" [a.t.], i.e., on the side of the well; Joh 5:2; Act 3:10-11; Act 5:9; Rev 21:12). Followed by the dat. pl. of person, i.e., with, among (Act 28:14; 2Co 7:7).
(2) After words implying motion or direction whither or where, upon, to, toward, and including the idea of subsequent rest upon.

(a) Generally (Mat 9:16; Mat 16:18; Mar 2:21; Mar 5:33; Joh 8:7; Act 5:35; Act 8:16; Eph 2:10). Metaphorically (Sept.: Job 29:9).
(b) Metaphorically, of a direction of mind meaning toward someone, e.g., in a friendly sense (Luk 18:7; 2Co 9:14; Sept.: 2Sa 14:1); a hostile sense, against (Luk 12:52-53; Rev 12:17).
​

(B) Of time, meaning when, chiefly as marking a definite period of time, upon, at, in.

(1) Generally (2Co 3:14, "in the reading," or whenever it is read; Php 1:3, "as often as I think of you" [a.t.], or at every mention; Heb 9:15, during the first covenant or while it was in force; Heb 9:26, at the consummation or completion of the ages, of time as we know it, of the dispensation of grace); as implying merely coexistence in time (2Co 7:4, "in [during, under] all our tribulation"; Eph 4:26, "during your wrath" [a.t.], i.e., while it continues).
(2) In the sense of "after," immediately following upon (Joh 4:27, "upon this," thereupon; Act 11:19, immediately after the persecution . . . about Stephen).
​

(C) Metaphorically spoken of:

(1) Power, authority, care over (Mat 24:47; Luk 12:44).
(2) Accession or addition, upon or unto something already mentioned or implied, besides (Mat 25:20, Mat 25:22; Luk 3:20; Luk 16:26, "besides all this" [a.t.]; Eph 6:16; Php 2:27; Col 3:14; Heb 8:1).
(3) That upon which something rests as a basis, foundation, support.

(a) Generally (Mat 4:4; Luk 4:4, "to live upon" [a.t.], i.e., to sustain or support life upon, quoted from Deu 8:3). After words implying hope, trust, confidence upon or in any person or thing (Mar 10:24; Luk 11:22; Luk 24:25; Act 2:26, "shall rest in [or upon] hope"; Act 14:3, "speaking boldly in [trusting upon] the Lord"; Rom 4:18; Rom 8:20; Rom 15:12; 1Ti 6:17; Tit 1:2; 1Pe 2:6). Epí used with the dat. of ónoma (G3686), name, in the phrase epí tō onómati, in or upon the name, followed by a gen. noun denoting attribution, i.e., to do anything based upon trust in someone's name and power, causing the enhancement of that person's character (Mat 18:5, "as resting upon [or professing] my name" [a.t.], as a Christian; Mat 24:5; Mar 9:37; Luk 9:48-49, "casting out devils in [or upon] thy name," i.e., resting the efficacy of their exorcism upon "thy name"; Luk 24:47; Act 2:38, "be baptized upon the name of Christ" [a.t.], i.e., the baptism being grounded upon the profession of His name; Act 4:17-18, "to teach in [upon] the name of Jesus" means resting upon His name, upon Him as the ultimate Teacher and Author; Act 5:28, Act 5:40; Sept.: Deu 18:20).
(b) Of the subject of an action in reference to (Mar 6:52, wrought upon the loaves). Of discourse on, about, concerning (Luk 23:38; Joh 12:16; Heb 11:4; Rev 10:11; Rev 22:16).
(c) Of a condition, law, sanction upon or under which something takes place (1Co 9:10; Heb 7:11; Heb 8:6, "under the sanction of" [a.t.]; Heb 9:17, "a testament is only valid the testator being dead" [a.t.]; Heb 10:28, "was put to death under two or three witnesses" [a.t. {cf. Deu 17:6; Deu 19:15}]).
(d) Of the ground, motive or cause of some action upon or at, i.e., on account of, because of (Mat 19:9; Luk 2:20; Luk 5:5; Act 3:16; Act 4:21; Act 26:6; 1Co 1:4; 1Co 8:11; 2Co 9:15). Followed by the dat. of person ep’ autoís, upon them (Act 21:24). With the relative pron. eph’ hṓ for epí toútō hóti, on this account that, because (Rom 5:12; 2Co 5:4; Php 4:10).
(e) Of the occasion upon, at, in connection with which something takes place; upon, at, over, after words of emotion such as joy, sorrow, compassion, astonishment (Mat 7:28, "they were astonished at his teaching" [a.t.]; Mat 14:14; Mat 18:13; Mat 22:33; Mar 3:5; Mar 6:34; Mar 10:22, Mar 10:24; Luk 1:14, Luk 1:29, Luk 1:47; Luk 5:9; Luk 9:43; Luk 15:7; Luk 19:41; Act 3:12; Act 8:2; Jas 5:1; Rev 11:10; Rev 18:9, Rev 18:11). Of the occasion of penitence and shame (Rom 6:21; 2Co 12:21).
(f) Of the object, purpose, end of any action, upon, unto, for (Gal 5:13; Php 3:12; 1Th 4:7; 2Ti 2:14). Also Act 15:14 [TR], where later editions omit epí; hence, eph’ hṓ (hṓ, the dat. neut. sing. of the relative pron. hós [G3739], which) for what, wherefore (Mat 26:50 [TR], for which others have eph’ hó).
(g) Of the norm or model upon or to which anything is adjusted or conformed, upon, after, according to (Luk 1:59; Sept.: Ezr 2:61; Neh 7:63). In 2Co 9:6; ep’ eulogías used as an adv. meaning bountifully or according to God's blessing or intervention (see eulogía [G2129], blessing).​

​

I want to draw to your attention the redish text and especially the bold portion of it. This is the construction used in Romans 5:12 it means "because" and it makes sin the cause of death rather than, as you have asserted, death the cause of sin.

The Douay bible says: Romans 5:12* Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death: and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.

That is very close to the Latin of the text and it teaches that sin the cause of death rather than death the cause of sin.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

...and yet...you think you can merit a response from God for "good works."

I don't think that there is anything wrong with trusting God to help out the people who obey Him and who walk in the good deeds that He had prepared for them. There are quite a few passages in The Bible that highlight the idea that doing good deeds and expecting God's favor in return is not sinful. Doing good works in itself does not merit us a response and we should ultimately accept God's Sovereign Will, but I believe that constantly engaging in good deeds paves the way towards understanding God's Will better and therefore aligning our will to His, which in itself could be considered a response from God.

 

[MennoSota]

I don't think that there is anything wrong with trusting God to help out the people who obey Him and who walk in the good deeds that He had prepared for them. There are quite a few passages in The Bible that highlight the idea that doing good deeds and expecting God's favor in return is not sinful. Doing good works in itself does not merit us a response and we should ultimately accept God's Sovereign Will, but I believe that constantly engaging in good deeds paves the way towards understanding God's Will better and therefore aligning our will to His, which in itself could be considered a response from God.

No one does good deeds that merit God's grace.
God's unmerited favor falls upon those whom He has elected to redeem so that the elect might do the good works God has ordained.
We must stop putting the cart before the horse.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I don't think that there is anything wrong with trusting God to help out the people who obey Him and who walk in the good deeds that He had prepared for them. There are quite a few passages in The Bible that highlight the idea that doing good deeds and expecting God's favor in return is not sinful. Doing good works in itself does not merit us a response and we should ultimately accept God's Sovereign Will, but I believe that constantly engaging in good deeds paves the way towards understanding God's Will better and therefore aligning our will to His, which in itself could be considered a response from God.

Doing good becomes a habit of mind and body which is indeed a path to God's favour and grace. Being good is a good thing. Do not allow anybody to convince you that it is not.

 

[Arsenios]

Doing good becomes a habit of mind and body
which is indeed a path to God's favour and grace.
Being good is a good thing.
Do not allow anybody to convince you that it is not.

What you said!

Doing good is a good thing...

Always do the very best you can do,

And God will take care of you...


A.

 

[atpollard]

Doing good becomes a habit of mind and body which is indeed a path to God's favour and grace. Being good is a good thing. Do not allow anybody to convince you that it is not.

... and NOBODY works harder at being good than the Jehovah’s Witnesses, So they must be MUCH closer to God’s favor and grace than the rest of us.
Right?

There is a difference between good works motivated by gratitude to God, and good works that spring from hubris, legalism and the sin of pride.

[Luke 18:9-12 NLT] 9 Then Jesus told this story to some who had great confidence in their own righteousness and scorned everyone else: 10 "Two men went to the Temple to pray. One was a Pharisee, and the other was a despised tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed this prayer: 'I thank you, God, that I am not a sinner like everyone else. For I don't cheat, I don't sin, and I don't commit adultery. I'm certainly not like that tax collector! 12 I fast twice a week, and I give you a tenth of my income.'

... the Pharisee did many good works.

 

[MoreCoffee]

... and NOBODY works harder at being good than the Jehovah’s Witnesses

Many work harder than Jehovah's witnesses at the doing of good works because many do good without preaching the wickedness of heresy that Jehovah's witnesses preach and many do good works of mercy for the poor and sick without expecting any return from humankind even to the extent of helping people who despise the religion of Jesus Christ. So if you hold Jehovah's witnesses as the highest good in your religion you show only what a low estimate of goodness and truth you are willing to hold up as the prime example to make your ill considered point.

, So they must be MUCH closer to God’s favor and grace than the rest of us.
Right?

If you're expecting a "yes" reply to this nonsense then my estimate of your post must be revised downwards from the already low esteem it holds.

There is a difference between good works motivated by gratitude to God, and good works that spring from hubris, legalism and the sin of pride.

You are mistaken when you imply by your words that the doing of good works is comparable to "works that spring from hubris, legalism and the sin of pride," Your words show only what heresy leads to and not what Christianity is. Mockery such as your opening comment is fit for a bar room discussion between intoxicated persons but not fit for serious discussion between Christians.

[Luke 18:9-12 NLT] 9 Then Jesus told this story to some who had great confidence in their own righteousness and scorned everyone else: 10 "Two men went to the Temple to pray. One was a Pharisee, and the other was a despised tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed this prayer: 'I thank you, God, that I am not a sinner like everyone else. For I don't cheat, I don't sin, and I don't commit adultery. I'm certainly not like that tax collector! 12 I fast twice a week, and I give you a tenth of my income.'

... the Pharisee did many good works.

Keep always in mind what Jesus says about the last judgement:

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me. Then the righteous will answer him, saying, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you? And the King will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.
Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me. Then they also will answer, saying, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you? Then he will answer them, saying, Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me. And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
(Matthew 25:31-46)​

 

[MennoSota]

Doing good becomes a habit of mind and body which is indeed a path to God's favour and grace. Being good is a good thing. Do not allow anybody to convince you that it is not.

No...it is not a path to God's favor and grace.
God's favor and grace is given and the effect of that favor and grace is good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

 

[MoreCoffee]

No...it is not a path to God's favor and grace.
God's favor and grace is given and the effect of that favor and grace is good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Proverbs 3:1-4* My son, forget not my law, and let thy heart keep my commandments. *2* For they shall add to thee length of days, and years of life, and peace. *3* Let not mercy aud truth leave thee, put them about thy neck, and write them in the tables of thy heart. *4* And thou shalt find grace, and good understanding before God and men.

Consider also Ephesians 1:5-12; 2:1-10

 

[MennoSota]

Proverbs 3:1-4* My son, forget not my law, and let thy heart keep my commandments. *2* For they shall add to thee length of days, and years of life, and peace. *3* Let not mercy aud truth leave thee, put them about thy neck, and write them in the tables of thy heart. *4* And thou shalt find grace, and good understanding before God and men.

Consider also Ephesians 1:5-12; 2:1-10

How does Proverbs 3 relate to the providential salvation of a sinner by God?
God chooses to save humans who are corrupted by the fall. God sets us apart and goes about the process of making us more and more in his image, just as we once were before the fall. God has restored the covenant with those whom he has chosen.

 

[MoreCoffee]

How does Proverbs 3 relate to the providential salvation of a sinner by God?
God chooses to save humans who are corrupted by the fall. God sets us apart and goes about the process of making us more and more in his image, just as we once were before the fall. God has restored the covenant with those whom he has chosen.

Are good works good?

 

[MennoSota]

Are good works good?

Not if they don't come from God.
MC, what standard of measurement are you using? Is your standard of good based on comparing human against human or is your standard based upon God's standard of holiness? Mine is the latter. God says that all our righteousness is as filthy rags.
So...good works are not good.

 

[atpollard]

Are good works good?

Were the works of the Pharisee and the JWs ‘good’?
They certainly thought so, and you seem to believe that all ‘works’ are good.
(Matthew 7:21-23 and Ephesians 2:10 suggest otherwise).

 

[MoreCoffee]

Were the works of the Pharisee and the JWs ‘good’?
They certainly thought so

What do you think?

, and you seem to believe that all ‘works’ are good.
(Matthew 7:21-23 and Ephesians 2:10 suggest otherwise).

 

[MoreCoffee]

Not if they don't come from God.
MC, what standard of measurement are you using? Is your standard of good based on comparing human against human or is your standard based upon God's standard of holiness? Mine is the latter. God says that all our righteousness is as filthy rags.
So...good works are not good.

How can anything be good if it does not come from God?

 

[Arsenios]

...
and NOBODY works harder at being good than the Jehovah’s Witnesses,
So they must be MUCH closer to God’s favor and grace than the rest of us.
Right?
... the Pharisee did many good works.

Serial Killers work VERY hard at their craft too...

Good to have someone to kick, right?

Let's go condemn somebody!

I mean, Yikes!!


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Serial Killers work VERY hard at their craft too...

Good to have someone to kick, right?

Let's go condemn somebody!

I mean, Yikes!!


Arsenios

Are Jehovah's Witnesses in Christ? (They deny His deity) If they are not found in Christ, they are condemned in their own sins.
This is the same for anyone who claims to be a Christian, but is not found in Christ. All their self-righteousness is as filthy rags before God the King, while the drunken beggar whom God has granted faith is made white as snow by the substitutionary payment of the King on the beggars behalf.
It is all God. He is good. His works, through us are good. He is to be praised.

 

[MennoSota]

How can anything be good if it does not come from God?

It cannot be good if it is not found in Christ Jesus.

 

[atpollard]

Serial Killers work VERY hard at their craft too...

Irrelevant. Serial killers are not performing ‘good works’ commanded by God to seek his favor (as the Pharisee and Jehovah’s Witnesses are).

Good to have someone to kick, right?

I have kicked no one.
Jesus condemned the Pharisee in his parable, so I do no more than accept the judgement of God on the matter.
I actuallly DO admire the effort that JWs place into ‘working out their own salvation’ and I feel only sorrow that they waste their energy chasing after 144,000 shadow seats on a bus that will never come.
I don’t think that I have kicked MoreCoffee, that was certainly not my intent, but he seems to steadfastly hold all ‘religious’ activity as equally ‘good’ when I perceive that the Bible differentiates religious works that honor God from religious works that puff up men.

Let's go condemn somebody!
I mean, Yikes!!

Arsenios

Did you have someone specific in mind?

 

[Arsenios]

Did you have someone specific in mind?

In the bad old days, hell-fire preachers needed the town drunk for someone to point at in condemnation so that the congregation would know what was the alternative to his sermon for that day... Not to mention that woman of bad repute, and a host of others...

Even the Pharisee did the same, thanking God that He had not made him like that sinful Publican over there...

Hypocrites need someone to point at, it seems...

Someone provably doing sinful deeds...

Low-life scum-sucking bottom feeders in love with their sins...

Thank God WE are not like THEM!!!

"What? You think that dirty-dog Jehovah witness over there is doing anything but sending himself to hell???"

Do you thank God that he did not make YOU like that hell-bound Jehovah Witness?

Because IF you DO thank God that you are not a Jehovah Witness,
you are exactly the same as the Pharisee
who thanked God he was not a sinner
like that dirty-dog Publican over there
that everybody loved to hate and kick...

Phony moral superiority is why Christians are hated in this country...
A judgmental hypocrite is rightly despised...
Which is why Christ said: "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisee..."
I genuinely hated Christians as an atheist for this reason...

Judge not lest ye BE judged...
Love and Forgiveness, not judgementalism, is the key...


Arsenios