Civil discourse - On the Bodily assumption of the Blessed Virgn Mary into heaven.

[Arsenios]

How many of them were present when one of Mary's several graves was opened and found to be empty (assuming that the legend is true to that extent)? That's where the Assumption idea starts.

There was one tomb...
Thomas as usual came a week late...
This time for Her funeral...
He wanted to say goodby to her...

So the Apostles went to the tomb...
Opened it for their tardy brother...
And all that they found in the tomb...
Was Her sash - Her body was not there...

We still have that sash in the Church...
We have the head of John the Baptist...
We have the still warm ear of John Chrysostom...
We have no bodily relic of Her, nor of Jesus, nor of the Apostle John...

You will remember that Christ said John would abide until Christ returned...
So the Blessed Virgin is not the only one physically assumed into Heaven...


Arsenios

 

[atpollard]

[John 21:20-23 NASB] 20 Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following [them;] the one who also had leaned back on His bosom at the supper and said, "Lord, who is the one who betrays You?" 21 So Peter seeing him said to Jesus, "Lord, and what about this man?" 22 Jesus said to him, "If I want him to remain until I come, what [is that] to you? You follow Me!" 23 Therefore this saying went out among the brethren that that disciple would not die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but [only,] "If I want him to remain until I come, what [is that] to you?"

 

[Albion]

There was one tomb...
Thomas as usual came a week late...
This time for Her funeral...
He wanted to say goodby to her...

So the Apostles went to the tomb...
Opened it for their tardy brother...
And all that they found in the tomb...
Was Her sash - Her body was not there...

We still have that sash in the Church...
We have the head of John the Baptist...
We have the still warm ear of John Chrysostom...
We have no bodily relic of Her, nor of Jesus, nor of the Apostle John...

You will remember that Christ said John would abide until Christ returned...
So the Blessed Virgin is not the only one physically assumed into Heaven...


Arsenios

That is the colorful mythology of your own denomination, but I was speaking of the facts of the matter. There are many places which claim to have Mary's grave and none of it can be supported, proven, by actual history or scripture.

 

[Arsenios]

That is the colorful mythology of your own denomination,

It is the teaching of the Apostlic Church of Christ in all places and at all times...

but I was speaking of the facts of the matter.

You don't know them...

There are many places which claim to have Mary's grave and none of it can be supported, proven, by actual history or scripture.

Her relics are in none of them...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

[John 21:20-23 NASB] 20 Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following [them;] the one who also had leaned back on His bosom at the supper and said, "Lord, who is the one who betrays You?" 21 So Peter seeing him said to Jesus, "Lord, and what about this man?" 22 Jesus said to him, "If I want him to remain until I come, what [is that] to you? You follow Me!" 23 Therefore this saying went out among the brethren that that disciple would not die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but [only,] "If I want him to remain until I come, what [is that] to you?"

So then we look to his life, and we find out that we have no primary relics of his body,
and that his body was not found in the tomb in which it had been buried either, like the Theotokos...

I can tell you this: that when I heard we have never had the body of John the Evangelist, and yet that he died of natural causes, as did the Theotokos, I looked at the passage above highlighted in a VERY different light... Because it shows the meaning of Christ's words... Just as also does the death of Peter...

It is not enough to grab the Bible and then close one's eyes to history...


Arsenios

 

[Albion]

It is the teaching of the Apostlic Church of Christ in all places and at all times...[/quote
No, it isn't. SOME of them, yes, but not all.

You don't know them...

All you know about it is the tale that your own denomination has spun. It has a bunch of em. I realize.

Her relics are in none of them...

That's right. Her relics are in none of the places claimed as her gravesite.

 

[Albion]

It is the teaching of the Apostlic Church of Christ in all places and at all times...

In some, not in others.

You don't know them...

All you know is the tale your own denomination made up. It has a bunch of em, I realize, from weeping icons to magic ointments and more.

Her relics are in none of them...

That's right. No relics because no one can verify any of the alleged gravesites.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It is the teaching of the Apostlic Church of Christ in all places and at all times...

No, it isn't. SOME of them, yes, but not all.


All you know about it is the tale that your own denomination has spun. It has a bunch of em. I realize.

Her relics are in none of them...

That's right. Her relics are in none of the places claimed as her gravesite.

Your post is broken, you left a / out of one [quote] and a ] our of a [/quote]

 

[Arsenios]

We read this in Scripture:

Joh 21:22
Jesus saith unto him,
If I will that he tarry till I come,
what is that to thee?
Follow thou me.

And we follow John's life to see what actually happened to him...

And we find, like Mariam, that we have no primary relics from him either...

He was buried on Patmos, and his tomb, like that of Jesus and Mary, is empty...

And this after each of them was placed in the tomb...

And the Scripture is quoting Christ saying this:

If I will that he tarry till I come...

And elsewhere in Scripture we find this:

Mat 24:34

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled.

The second coming has come, and is coming, and will come...

John saw it...

Mariam saw it...

Their bodies are here no longer, yet they died...

I don't even know if this is Orthodox teaching...

But it sure hits me between the eyes...

The Salvation of the Cosmos came through Mariam...

And now it seems to also include John the Evangelist...

Or even perhaps be established through or by him...

It is a staggering thought, in my seeing...


Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

We read this in Scripture:

Joh 21:22
Jesus saith unto him,
If I will that he tarry till I come,
what is that to thee?
Follow thou me.

And we follow John's life to see what actually happened to him...

And we find, like Mariam, that we have no primary relics from him either...

He was buried on Patmos, and his tomb, like that of Jesus and Mary, is empty...

And this after each of them was placed in the tomb...

And the Scripture is quoting Christ saying this:

If I will that he tarry till I come...

And elsewhere in Scripture we find this:

Mat 24:34

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled.

The second coming has come, and is coming, and will come...

John saw it...

Mariam saw it...

Their bodies are here no longer, yet they died...

I don't even know if this is Orthodox teaching...

But it sure hits me between the eyes...

The Salvation of the Cosmos came through Mariam...

And now it seems to also include John the Evangelist...

Or even perhaps be established through or by him...

It is a staggering thought, in my seeing...


Arsenios

Enoch was assumed into heaven and it seems that Elijah was too so there is old testament precedent for it and no good reason to say that Blessed Mary could not be assumed. The Catholic Church maintains that Blessed Mary was assumed into heaven. It is possible that she died and was assumed and it is also possible that she was assumed into heaven without first dying. Enoch did not die, nor did Elijah. There is therefore precedent in the old testament for a living human being to be assumed into heaven.

 

[Albion]

Enoch was assumed into heaven and it seems that Elijah was too so there is old testament precedent for it and no good reason to say that Blessed Mary could not be assumed.

Sure, but God doesn't need a precedent. If he chose to take Mary's body into heaven, he could do it anyway. However, even the Roman Catholic Church which dogmatized the doctrine of the Assumption doesn't take a position on whether this happened to her while alive or if, OTOH, it was only her corpse that was assumed. So that's one more reason why Enoch and Elijah are irrelevant to the truth or falsity of the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary.

 

[Josiah]

Enoch was assumed into heaven and it seems that Elijah was too so there is old testament precedent for it and no good reason to say that Blessed Mary could not be assumed. The Catholic Church maintains that Blessed Mary was assumed into heaven. It is possible that she died and was assumed and it is also possible that she was assumed into heaven without first dying. Enoch did not die, nor did Elijah. There is therefore precedent in the old testament for a living human being to be assumed into heaven.

The problem, OF COURSE, with that whole apologetic is that "POSSIBLE" has little to do with "DOGMATIC FACT." Is it possible that there are 12 flying purple people eaters hiding on Mars? Yup. Does that prove to the highest level possible that that's TRUE? Nope. Is it POSSIBLE Joseph Smith found those plates? Of course. Does that prove as dogma the he did? Nope. In theology, your rubric is even less credible, since the Bible itself states, "ALL THINGS are POSSIBLE with God."


The Dogma of the Assumption of Mary (1950) is possible - as anything and everything in theology is.
Is it stated in Scripture? No Catholic known to me claims that it is.
Does it have history and tradition and ecumenism going for it? Yes, actually quite a bit.




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