Christ died for them not appointed to Wrath.

brightfame52

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 28, 2022
Messages
1,367
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
"Even denying the Lord THAT BOUGHT THEM." If the Lord bought these people, then they couldn't have been damned to hell from the beginning.
I dont believe that's talking about they were bought with the blood of Christ, but a national corporate buying of the OT jewish nation Deut 32 5-6

5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.

6 Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?

Go study it
 

BruceLeiter

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 11, 2024
Messages
449
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Widow/Widower
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Bruce Letter - So you're saying we should conceal the truth from people by telling everyone we present the gospel to that Jesus died in their place because he loves them, when the truth is, the great majority of those to whom we speak he really didn't die for at all, and, in reality, actually hates them and never had any intention to save them at all?

That would make me a liar, wouldn't it?
No, you wouldn't be a liar when you withhold truths that they wouldn't be ready to learn yet. Do you tell unbelievers about the mysteries of the Trinity, providence, and the divine and human natures of Christ? Don't you wait until they are growing believers? We do the same with children. Our education curriculums gradually introduce concepts that children can handle as they grow. The people you're talking about haven't even reached the baby-believer stage, much less the mature believer stage, where such teachings would be appropriate. I was an English teacher and taught world literature but wouldn't even entertain the idea to teach it to second graders. Do you see?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 28, 2022
Messages
1,367
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Another scripture that confirms that some people God created for the day of His Eternal Wrath against their sins is here Prov 16:4

4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

The word for made here is used for maker as in Creator Job 36:3

I will fetch my knowledge from afar, and will ascribe righteousness to my Maker.

God has made the wicked, the vessels of wrath, for His Own Glory in demonstrating His Justice upon them for their sins.

Rom 9:20-22

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:4
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 28, 2022
Messages
1,367
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
No, you wouldn't be a liar when you withhold truths that they wouldn't be ready to learn yet. Do you tell unbelievers about the mysteries of the Trinity, providence, and the divine and human natures of Christ? Don't you wait until they are growing believers? We do the same with children. Our education curriculums gradually introduce concepts that children can handle as they grow. The people you're talking about haven't even reached the baby-believer stage, much less the mature believer stage, where such teachings would be appropriate. I was an English teacher and taught world literature but wouldn't even entertain the idea to teach it to second graders. Do you see?
You are equating human learning naturally with spiritual learning. In order for one to spiritually learn they must first be made spiritually alive by the Spirit, by which they have a new spiritual capacity to learn spiritual truth 1 Cor 2:12-14

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The Spirit capacitates the spiritually born to receive the Mysteries of the Gospel, that's why God first gives them the Spirit, the Gospel in its fundamentals is a Mystery 1 Cor 2:4-7

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

So your argument for withholding key Gospel doctrines are anti spiritual, and shows lack of trust in the Spirits power to convey spiritual truth
 

BruceLeiter

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 11, 2024
Messages
449
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Widow/Widower
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
You are equating human learning naturally with spiritual learning. In order for one to spiritually learn they must first be made spiritually alive by the Spirit, by which they have a new spiritual capacity to learn spiritual truth 1 Cor 2:12-14

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The Spirit capacitates the spiritually born to receive the Mysteries of the Gospel, that's why God first gives them the Spirit, the Gospel in its fundamentals is a Mystery 1 Cor 2:4-7

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

So your argument for withholding key Gospel doctrines are anti spiritual, and shows lack of trust in the Spirits power to convey spiritual truth
No, they aren't. God teaches us truths through his creation. Do you deny that truth, brightfame52? If you deny that truth, read the first part of Psalm 19. The Word of God is our glasses or contacts to see creation clearly, but God does reveal himself there. The Holy Spirit is very pastoral as our Councilor, who would have us fit our message as the Bible's truth to the needs of the people we are talking to, I'm sure, whether they are total unbelievers, seekers, baby-Christians, growing Christians, or mature believers. If you share too much at first, it may put them off; if they're elect, God will use someone else, but your approach will be unfruitful, and you will answer to God for your approach.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 28, 2022
Messages
1,367
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
@BruceLeiter

God teaches us truths through his creation.

False, not about the Gospel, and Christ and His Person and Work

The Holy Spirit is very pastoral as our Councilor, who would have us fit our message as the Bible's truth to the needs of the people we are talking to, I'm sure, whether they are total unbelievers, seekers, baby-Christians, growing Christians, or mature believers. If you share too much at first, it may put them off; if they're elect, God will use someone else, but your approach will be unfruitful, and you will answer to God for your approach.

Friend, Im not going to be going back and forth about this matter, if you dont teach Sovereign Unconditional Election of Grace of a Particular People, and Christs Saving death of the same, you aren't preaching the Gospel of Gods Grace. It is no way one preaches salvation by grace and withhold Election of Grace.
 

fuddy

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 21, 2024
Messages
58
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Bruce - the people I was referring to are all people, including those which Calvinists would refer to as the un-elect. But you speak of all of them, it seems, as if they aren't yet ready for higher revelations pertaining to salvation.

I'm speaking of presenting the gospel of Jesus to everyone, among whom are both the elect and the non-elect - Calvinism states there is no hope whatsoever for the unelected, therefore if I were to present the gospel as if it's hope were available to ALL people, I would be lying to those who were unelect among them, and proferring a false hope to them.

I'd be a liar and a deceiver.
 

BruceLeiter

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 11, 2024
Messages
449
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Widow/Widower
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Bruce - the people I was referring to are all people, including those which Calvinists would refer to as the un-elect. But you speak of all of them, it seems, as if they aren't yet ready for higher revelations pertaining to salvation.

I'm speaking of presenting the gospel of Jesus to everyone, among whom are both the elect and the non-elect - Calvinism states there is no hope whatsoever for the unelected, therefore if I were to present the gospel as if it's hope were available to ALL people, I would be lying to those who were unelect among them, and proferring a false hope to them.

I'd be a liar and a deceiver.
No, fuddy, the point is that you don't know for sure who is elect and who isn't, because they may be false Christians or people who will become Christians who will become Christians much latter and actually an elect person like my father, who accepted Jesus at the age of 77. We can share the Good News with everyone that God saves all who trust only in Jesus as the way to the Father's acceptance without telling individuals that they're elect or un-elect. You can use third person (they and their) instead of second person pronouns (you).
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 28, 2022
Messages
1,367
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
God hides His Truth from the vessels of wrath, for they are permanently lost 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 4
 

fuddy

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 21, 2024
Messages
58
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I see your point Bruce. Guess we'll all have to wait to get the full picture, it's all in Gods hands, and He always does right. Bottom line.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 28, 2022
Messages
1,367
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Christs death was for the salvation of the persons God had chosen to salvation 2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you [m]from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and [n]belief of the truth: 14 whereunto he called you through our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

These are obviously the vessels of mercy Paul wrote of in Rom 9:23,

Yet the others whom God hath appointed to wrath, the vessels of wrath wrote about i Rom 9:22 Christ was not for. See His Death was for Salvation ! 5
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 28, 2022
Messages
1,367
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
bad post
 
Last edited:

brightfame52

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 28, 2022
Messages
1,367
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes

brightfame52

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 28, 2022
Messages
1,367
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
About the Vessels of Wrath Rom 9:22

In a similar way vessels of wrath are vessels that are conceived in God's wrath and designed to be the bearers of the righteous indignation of the Most High forever.

This interpretation is corroborated first of all by the fact that in the text vessels of wrath are the very opposite of vessels of mercy; and the latter phrase signifies not merely men that are historically the objects of the mercy, the saving mercy, of God, but men that are ordained in mercy from eternity. The parallel expression, vessels of wrath, must, therefore, be interpreted in a similar fashion. It refers to men whom God has sovereignly known in wrath and whom in His wrath He shapes into vessels unto dishonor in time. And secondly, that this is indeed the correct interpretation is also clear from what is added to the description of these vessels of wrath in the text. They are vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction. The meaning of this latter addition is plain. It signifies: to be so constituted that the end must necessarily be destruction. The vessels of wrath are so constituted that their entire makeup and design and institution serves the purpose of reaching that end of destruction. If we abandon the figure of the vessel, the meaning is that there are men so instituted as to their personality, their power and talents, their position in the world, and their place in the whole of the works of God, that everything tends to their destruction, serves the purpose of leading them not to temporal destruction, but to eternal desolation. Unto this they are fitted. And the question arises naturally: fitted unto destruction by whom? Of course, also here the Arminian is bound to say that men fit themselves unto destruction. That God is sovereign also in the determination of the destruction of the wicked, that, although it remains true that the wicked deliberately seeks his own destruction and walks in the way into eternal desolation, this end is nevertheless sovereignly determined by God, so that there is no accident, the Arminian does not understand and does not want to admit. Everything depends on, is contingent upon the determination of the will of man, according to him. But this explanation is so wholly contrary to the entire context, that I need waste no words to expose its fallacy. If we really desire to submit to the Word of God, if we do not sinfully distort the plain meaning of the words of Scripture, the meaning which the text yields can only be that God fitted these vessels unto destruction. And well may the people of God rejoice in this truth, for it means that all the Pharaohs and all the Nebuchadnezzars and all the Neroes and all Hitlers and Stalins, all the destroyers on the earth, and all the persecutors of the Church, all the haters of Christ and His cause and His people in the world, are absolutely under the control and in the hand of God's sovereign power. According to Arminianism, it is the will of the wicked that rules and that determines the history of the world. According to Scripture, however, the wicked is but the ax with which God hews and the saw which He draws. We are absolutely safe; according to God's eternal thoughts and counsel, all the wicked of the earth are so instituted that they but tend to destruction. Fitted unto destruction they are in God's eternal wrath; for Esau hath He hated.

Predestination: The Heart of the Gospel 9 God's Sovereign Dealings
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 28, 2022
Messages
1,367
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
What is reprobation:

Reprobation is that eternal will, good pleasure, or purpose of God according to which He determined that some of His moral, rational creatures would be cast into hell forever on account of their sins; and that this fact would serve the cause of Christ and redound to God's glory alone. Rev. Gise J. Van Baren 5
 

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
33,199
Age
58
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
What is reprobation:

Reprobation is that eternal will, good pleasure, or purpose of God according to which He determined that some of His moral, rational creatures would be cast into hell forever on account of their sins; and that this fact would serve the cause of Christ and redound to God's glory alone. Rev. Gise J. Van Baren 5

Because of the fall by Adam and Eve's sin, all of mankind are by nature object of God's wrath. That's man's fault that they are hellbound because of sin, not God's doing. Just like ALL were condemned by the fall, Jesus' death was for ALL.
 

BruceLeiter

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 11, 2024
Messages
449
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Widow/Widower
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I see your point Bruce. Guess we'll all have to wait to get the full picture, it's all in Gods hands, and He always does right. Bottom line.
I agree, fuddy!
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 28, 2022
Messages
1,367
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
God has reprobated as well as chosen. Taken by itself, reprobation is the decree of God in which He has determined, as sovereignly as in election, that some individuals should not enter eternal glory, but are destined for destruction. Herman Hoeksema
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 28, 2022
Messages
1,367
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Because of the fall by Adam and Eve's sin, all of mankind are by nature object of God's wrath. That's man's fault that they are hellbound because of sin, not God's doing. Just like ALL were condemned by the fall, Jesus' death was for ALL.
No all men by nature are not objects of Gods wrath, only the vessels of wrath are, which are the non elect reprobate who have been appointed to wrath.
 

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
33,199
Age
58
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
No all men by nature are not objects of Gods wrath, only the vessels of wrath are, which are the non elect reprobate who have been appointed to wrath.

So what does "the fall" mean to you?
 
Top Bottom