Catholicism

[Faith]

Is this really your most pressing issue in your walk with Christ? I think you should return to your RCC roots. But not because of an issue as insignificant as the age of the Earth. I’m pretty sure there’s those on both sides of the debate on both sides. There’s Lutherans who believe in a young Earth, there’s Lutherans who believe in an old Earth. There’s Catholics who believe in a young Earth, there’s Catholics who believe in an old Earth. The age of the Earth is really immaterial to which church you join. There’s people on both sides of the aisle in every church.

I figured you’d say that. IRL and online Catholics want me to return to Catholicism, Lutherans want me to return to Lutheranism.

 

[Josiah]

I figured you’d say that. IRL and online Catholics want me to return to Catholicism, Lutherans want me to return to Lutheranism.

MY counsel is to "return" to whichever you want, but based on DOCTRINES.... not individual opinions, etc., etc., etc.

READ your 800 page Catholic Catechism and your 12 page Lutheran one - and decide which DOCTRINES you agree with.




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[Albion]

Here's something straight from the Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod that might add something to this issue and also be of assistance to our friend Faith:

Convention confesses: ‘God created the world in six natural days’

After some discussion, the Synod in convention adopted Res. 5-09A, which confesses that God created the world in six natural days.

reporter.lcms.org

 

[Josiah]

I was there. I was a delegate.

It was a convention resolution. It did not amend the Lutheran Confessions. It was never even discussed as binding or required of ANYONE (clergy, teachers. parish members). It expressed the OPINION of the Convention... with zero application.

I don't deny that this opinion exists among LCMS members.... clearly it was among that 0.001% of them who were at the Convention. But that does not dogma make... that does not amend the Confessions... that does not make it binding... it doesn't change or do anything.

Faith's pastor was correct in what he told her: It's opinion. It's not dogma; she is NOT required to agree.


BTW, as far as I know, it's not dogma in the Catholic Church either, no more than it is in the LCMS. So there's no reason to accept the Dogma of the RCC on this point over the dogma in the LCMS on this point... neither has any dogma on this point. You could speak with 10 Lutherans and 10 Catholics on this and get 20 opinions but not a word of dogma, nothing about required, nothing about excommunication. You could do the same with Trump but you'd get an infinitely more passionate and lively discussion.



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[Albion]

I was there. I was a delegate.

It was a convention resolution. It did not amend the Lutheran Confessions. It was never even discussed as binding or required of ANYONE (clergy, teachers. parish members).

I don't deny that this opinion exists among LCMS members.... clearly it was among that 0.001% who were at the Convention. But that does not dogma make... that does not amend the Confessions... that does not make it binding.

Faith's pastor was correct in what he told her: It's opinion. It's not dogma; she is NOT required to agree.

Being "required" to believe some idea has been part of this discussion here, but it also has been about what the Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod church does believe.

If the convention of the whole church formally adopts a resolution, after a spirited debate, saying that the days of Creation as described in Holy Scripture were six natural days and not a longer period of time than that...then that is what the church stands for, even if members are not required to believe that interpretation.

But as I noted before, some people will be satisfied to know that they personally are at liberty to reject this or that which their church teaches concerning the interpretation of some passages in the Bible without it compromising their membership, at the same time as other people will conclude that they cannot do that in good conscience.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

Here's something straight from the Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod that might add something to this issue and also be of assistance to our friend Faith:

Convention confesses: ‘God created the world in six natural days’

After some discussion, the Synod in convention adopted Res. 5-09A, which confesses that God created the world in six natural days.

reporter.lcms.org

Am I blind or did they not print the actual resolution in that linked article?

 

[Josiah]

Being "required" to believe some idea has been part of this discussion here, but it also has been about what the Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod church does believe.

If the convention of the whole church formally adopts a resolution, after a spirited debate, saying that the days of Creation as described in Holy Scripture were six natural days and not a longer period of time than that...then that is what the church stands for, even if members are not required to believe that interpretation.

Not exactly.... The resolution (like the great majority of the resolutions.... again, I was there) were expressing the opinion of the assembly. Yes, I think there was one or two resolutions that once passed were said to "express the view of the LCMS in convention" (yet another pro-life resolution) but note the "in convention." And a whole LOT of "we appreciate you" resolutions (dozens of thank you resolutions) but these were not doctrines or binding.... we have pro-choice members and clergy in the LCMS...

But as I noted before, some people will be satisfied to know that they personally are at liberty to reject this or that which their church teaches concerning the interpretation of some passages in the Bible without it compromising their membership, at the same time as other people will conclude that they cannot do that in good conscience.

I think they CAN "in good conscience" just as Faith's pastor said. It's not dogma. It's not binding. No one is asked to agree with Convention resolutions. Now some DO things (we authorized - AFTER THE FACT - the closing of a college and yup the college closed, before we authorized it, in spite of my vote to not do so) but this wasn't a teaching, it was an administrative issue.

Every human organization as a whole has opinions. Trump is pretty popular in the Republican Party right now, doesn't mean you can't in good conscience be a Republican.... Trump won the nomination of that party in 2020 yet nearly 50% of Republicans did not vote for him in the primaries... doesn't mean those 49% can't be Republicans in good conscience. Now, I agree, there's a difference if the view of the organization declares DOGMA - a position that is binding (even if only in theory). I left the RCC because of a FEW (you could count them on one hand) of DOGMAS that I would be required to state to God and the Church that I hold as true, and I could not do. Purgatory... Infallibility of the Pope... a couple of others. And some DOGMAS I didn't hold as false but couldn't say I hold as true (some Marian views, for example). DOGMAS. REQUIRED (although God knows LOTS of "Catholics" don't - people our Deacon condemned). In the LCMS, I was asked to agree with Luther's Small Catechism (and only the doctrine sections of that - maybe 8 pages). I could - in good conscience - state to God and the Church that I did (and do). The age of the Earth never came up in either denomination for a very simple reason: It's not dogma in either.


I honestly think the issue of this thread was settled a long time ago.... Faith learned that neither the RCC or LCMS have doctrine here, neither require that anyone has a certain view on this. As her pastor told her that - and she accepted it. He seemed to have no issue with her opinion as to the age of the Earth.





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[Faith]

MY counsel is to "return" to whichever you want, but based on DOCTRINES.... not individual opinions, etc., etc., etc.

READ your 800 page Catholic Catechism and your 12 page Lutheran one - and decide which DOCTRINES you agree with.




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No way am I reading 800 pages of that book! I have skipped around in it though.
And FTR, I don’t know how I feel about purgatory or Marian dogma’s either. I do miss my rosary but I’m conflicted about repeating the Hail Mary overandover again since Matthew 6:7 tells us not to.
Im not sure how I feel about the Catholic dogma of Assumption And other things. I struggled to accept some Catholic teaching for years. Especially the Assumption.

 

[Faith]

Being "required" to believe some idea has been part of this discussion here, but it also has been about what the Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod church does believe.

If the convention of the whole church formally adopts a resolution, after a spirited debate, saying that the days of Creation as described in Holy Scripture were six natural days and not a longer period of time than that...then that is what the church stands for, even if members are not required to believe that interpretation.

But as I noted before, some people will be satisfied to know that they personally are at liberty to reject this or that which their church teaches concerning the interpretation of some passages in the Bible without it compromising their membership, at the same time as other people will conclude that they cannot do that in good conscience.

That’s what’s been bothering me.^ this.

 

[Faith]

Being "required" to believe some idea has been part of this discussion here, but it also has been about what the Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod church does believe.

If the convention of the whole church formally adopts a resolution, after a spirited debate, saying that the days of Creation as described in Holy Scripture were six natural days and not a longer period of time than that...then that is what the church stands for, even if members are not required to believe that interpretation.

But as I noted before, some people will be satisfied to know that they personally are at liberty to reject this or that which their church teaches concerning the interpretation of some passages in the Bible without it compromising their membership, at the same time as other people will conclude that they cannot do that in good conscience.

I felt better until you said that……

 

[Faith]

Am I blind or did they not print the actual resolution in that linked article?

What do you mean?

 

[Fritz Kobus]

What do you mean?

It talked about the resolution, but the actual wording of the resolution I did not find.

 

[Faith]

Not exactly.... The resolution (like the great majority of the resolutions.... again, I was there) were expressing the opinion of the assembly. Yes, I think there was one or two resolutions that once passed were said to "express the view of the LCMS in convention" (yet another pro-life resolution) but note the "in convention." And a whole LOT of "we appreciate you" resolutions (dozens of thank you resolutions) but these were not doctrines or binding.... we have pro-choice members and clergy in the LCMS...





I think they CAN "in good conscience" just as Faith's pastor said. It's not dogma. It's not binding. No one is asked to agree with Convention resolutions. Now some DO things (we authorized - AFTER THE FACT - the closing of a college and yup the college closed, before we authorized it, in spite of my vote to not do so) but this wasn't a teaching, it was an administrative issue.

Every human organization as a whole has opinions. Trump is pretty popular in the Republican Party right now, doesn't mean you can't in good conscience be a Republican.... Trump won the nomination of that party in 2020 yet nearly 50% of Republicans did not vote for him in the primaries... doesn't mean those 49% can't be Republicans in good conscience. Now, I agree, there's a difference if the view of the organization declares DOGMA - a position that is binding (even if only in theory). I left the RCC because of a FEW (you could count them on one hand) of DOGMAS that I would be required to state to God and the Church that I hold as true, and I could not do. Purgatory... Infallibility of the Pope... a couple of others. And some DOGMAS I didn't hold as false but couldn't say I hold as true (some Marian views, for example). DOGMAS. REQUIRED (although God knows LOTS of "Catholics" don't - people our Deacon condemned). In the LCMS, I was asked to agree with Luther's Small Catechism (and only the doctrine sections of that - maybe 8 pages). I could - in good conscience - state to God and the Church that I did (and do). The age of the Earth never came up in either denomination for a very simple reason: It's not dogma in either.


I honestly think the issue of this thread was settled a long time ago.... Faith learned that neither the RCC or LCMS have doctrine here, neither require that anyone has a certain view on this. As her pastor told her that - and she accepted it. He seemed to have no issue with her opinion as to the age of the Earth.





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But what if I feel uncomfortable with that “in good conscience”? I have to say right now (if I haven’t already at some point ) I have OCD, obviously.

 

[Albion]

It talked about the resolution, but the actual wording of the resolution I did not find.

See the following:

Lutheran Church passes resolution saying ‘God created the world in 6 natural days’

The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod passed a resolution at their convention affirming belief that God created the earth in six natural days

www.christianpost.com

 

[Faith]

That’s what’s been bothering me.^ this.

My pastor told me that I CAN be a member of the LCMS “in good conscience.”

 

[Fritz Kobus]

So much of this recent discussion speaks to why I am not a member at a church.

See the following:

Lutheran Church passes resolution saying ‘God created the world in 6 natural days’

The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod passed a resolution at their convention affirming belief that God created the earth in six natural days

www.christianpost.com

not seeing it, but maybe they linked it. I searched the resolution number online and apparently this is it: