Catholicism

[Faith]

If you are baptized by a pastor who later turns out to be a hypocrite unbeliever who was just faking it because he had no other job skills and the church job at least paid the bills, your baptism is still valid. It is not dependent on who administers it, but on God. Same goes for the Eucharist. I cannot find apostolic succession in the Bible, much less that it would be required for pastors to give communion.

To give it, no. To consecrate it? I dunno

 

[Fritz Kobus]

Math isn’t my forte‘. So if creation was around the years listed, that would make the earth how old?

Somewhere between 5844 and 7687 years. However, those dates are extreme limits based on a lot of cumulative imprecision from rounding, different calendars, etc. Those are to set relatively absolute limits. However, "A straightforward reading of the biblical genealogies according to the reliable Masoretic text shows that Adam was created about 4000 BC, and this was on the 6th day of creation." Therfore, we can be fairly confident, though not dogmatic (since anything from 5844 to 7687 is possible) about the earth being about 6000 years old (or by now, ~6022). The Jewish calendar has us in the year 5782, a bit below the lower limit CMI developed.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

To give it, no. To consecrate it? I dunno

All effect of the sacraments is attributable to the Word of God, not the person performing the consecration.

 

[Faith]

Somewhere between 5844 and 7687 years. However, those dates are extreme limits based on a lot of cumulative imprecision from rounding, different calendars, etc. Those are to set relatively absolute limits. However, "A straightforward reading of the biblical genealogies according to the reliable Masoretic text shows that Adam was created about 4000 BC, and this was on the 6th day of creation." Therfore, we can be fairly confident, though not dogmatic (since anything from 5844 to 7687 is possible) about the earth being about 6000 years old (or by now, ~6022). The Jewish calendar has us in the year 5782, a bit below the lower limit CMI developed.

Ok well, what about ALL the scientific evidence that says we didn’t come from the dust of the ground but from a group of people in Africa?

 

[Faith]

All effect of the sacraments is attributable to the Word of God, not the person performing the consecration.

That’s pretty much what my pastors say at the LCMS church. Catholics say it’s the Holy Spirit but that it can only be done by a validly ordained priest.
It’s so confusing because the LCMS says one thing, Catholics say another, but Communion isn’t my biggest problem. The biggest problem goes back to the Catholic priest I talked to who said the universe is billions of years old and my LCMS pastor says 6,000.

 

[Lamb]

That’s pretty much what my pastors say at the LCMS church. Catholics say it’s the Holy Spirit but that it can only be done by a validly ordained priest.
It’s so confusing because the LCMS says one thing, Catholics say another, but Communion isn’t my biggest problem. The biggest problem goes back to the Catholic priest I talked to who said the universe is billions of years old and my LCMS pastor says 6,000.

Why is that so essential to you?

 

[Faith]

Why is that so essential to you?

I don’t know, except that it just seems like such an important part of being LCMS.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

Ok well, what about ALL the scientific evidence that says we didn’t come from the dust of the ground but from a group of people in Africa?

There is a lot of scientific evidence (data) but what it means is very much open to interpretation. If you read a lot of the articles on www.creation.com you will see how well the evidence fits creation models, typically better than it fits evolutionary models. Evolutionists are atheists at heart and so automatically interpret all data in a world view of no god or at most, a god who created and stepped back to leave it happen (the Blind Watchmaker of one famous evolutionist). We do not want to follow after the teachings of the blind:

2 Corinthians:
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

The purveyors of evolution are essentially agents of Satan working to corrupt the world and destroy faith. Those in the church who fall into believing both in God and in evolution have been deceived. Theistic evolution is a falsehood that cannot be squared with the Bible. Whether the earth is 6000 years old or 8000 years, the Bible only supports thousands of years, not tens of thousands, let along billions. Theistic evolution requires death before the fall into sin, which is a contradiction to the Bible that everything was good before Adam sinned.

 

[Josiah]

the Lutheran church teaches the Universe is 6,000 y/o

@Faith


This is not true.

The teachings of Lutheranism is very objective and written in the Confessions (the Book of Concord). THERE is THE teachings of Lutheranism. And it says NOTHING about the age of the universe, the number "6,000" is not found anywhere there.

It may be that SOME of the 300+ Lutheran denominations have persons in them that think the Earth is no older than that (but then I'm sure you'll find some Lutherans who think there are flying purple people eaters too - doesn't mean LUTHERANISM teaches that). You may find resolutions of one of the 300+ Lutheran denominations that state that slavery is okay but that doesn't mean LUTHERANISM teaches that.

The biggest problem goes back to the Catholic priest I talked to who said the universe is billions of years old and my LCMS pastor says 6,000.

Both men gave you their own OPINION. Neither is sharing the dogma of their respective denominations.

Really? The opinion of two men is "the biggest" issue of all? Bigger than justification? The nature of the church? Purgatory? Transubstantiation? The infallibility of the Papacy? Really? The opinion of two men is THE BIGGEST issue there is? Trumps everything else combined?

I’m thisclose to returning to the RCC since they allow for (and the priests I know believe) the belief in a universe that’s billions of years old.
Evolution doesn’t bother me as much as the age of the universe and earth.
Any advice?

The Catholic Church has no official position on this.... Read the Catechism, all 800 pages of it, there is NO MENTION WHATSOEVER of how old the universe is. There is no more a Catholic teaching on this than there is a Lutheran teaching on this, although I'm sure you can find both Catholics and Lutherans who believe in flying purple people eaters and/or that Elvis Presley is alive or than Hitler lived to 89 years old in Argentina. None of which makes those teachings of Lutheranism or Catholicism, it just makes them opinions of some Lutherans and Catholics.


So... the unofficial view of some Catholics about how old the universe is trumps DOGMAS of Transubstantiation, Purgatory, Infalliblity of the Pope, Mary as the Co-Redeemer, and other official, obligatory DOGMAS of the RCC? You'll throw out Lutheran teachings on Justification because you think more Catholics hold to a personal position on how old the Earth is than you think do in one of the 300+ Lutheran denominations? Wow.

What I Like About Lutheranism

The following is not at all meant to be all-inclusive or in any particular order.... 1. Humility.... mystery.... respect. In Lutheranism, there is a deep respect for what God says and a cooresponding humility in what we theorize. Great attention is given to what God said (the very...

www.christianityhaven.com

Reasons I Changed from Catholic to Lutheran

. Reasons this Catholic Became a Protestant.... I must begin by saying this was by far the hardest thing I've ever done in life.... I have Catholic roots going back CENTURIES.... my family is largely Catholic (not all active, however)... I LOVED my parish and felt deep roots there... and I...

www.christianityhaven.com

.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

That’s pretty much what my pastors say at the LCMS church. Catholics say it’s the Holy Spirit but that it can only be done by a validly ordained priest.
It’s so confusing because the LCMS says one thing, Catholics say another, but Communion isn’t my biggest problem. The biggest problem goes back to the Catholic priest I talked to who said the universe is billions of years old and my LCMS pastor says 6,000.

Mark 10:6 quotes Jesus saying, "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female." So if the creation is billions of years old, then Adam and Eve fell into sin billions of years ago, but why does the history in the Bible only account for thousands of years. There really is nowhere in the bible we can insert a missing billions of years. Some try, but they have to distort the Bible severely to do it.

 

[Lamb]

I don’t know, except that it just seems like such an important part of being LCMS.

Who says?

 

[Albion]

I think I believe that the RCC communion is Jesus. But at the same time IF the LCMS also has Jesus in and under the bread and wine, all the better. That makes more sense to me than transubstantiation.

Offhand, I'm hesitant to comment too much at this time, considering how much has already been posted in reply to your initial question, Faith, but I have two "feelings" about the matter--

1. You could probably solve the problem by staying Lutheran but choosing a congregation of the ELCA, as opposed to the LC-MS or WELS.

The ELCA is the largest of the Lutheran churches in the USA and does not require a strictly literal interpretation of such as the Bible's words that deal with the days of creation; and it now has Apostolic Succession thanks to the assistance of The Episcopal Church.

2. Return to the RCC and hope to find a parish and pastor that's more like what you hope for. You have wrestled quite a while with the problems that you have described to us, and it doesn't seem likely that you'll be satisfied in the long run by staying where you are.

I'd be interested to hear your reaction because I do hope you can find your 'right place.'

 

[Faith]

@Faith


This is not true.

The teachings of Lutheranism is very objective and written in the Confessions (the Book of Concord). THERE is THE teachings of Lutheranism. And it says NOTHING about the age of the universe, the number "6,000" is not found anywhere there.

It may be that SOME of the 300+ Lutheran denominations have persons in them that think the Earth is no older than that (but then I'm sure you'll find some Lutherans who think there are flying purple people eaters too - doesn't mean LUTHERANISM teaches that). You may find resolutions of one of the 300+ Lutheran denominations that state that slavery is okay but that doesn't mean LUTHERANISM teaches that.






Both men gave you their own OPINION. Neither is sharing the dogma of their respective denominations.

Really? The opinion of two men is "the biggest" issue of all? Bigger than justification? The nature of the church? Purgatory? Transubstantiation? The infallibility of the Papacy? Really? The opinion of two men is THE BIGGEST issue there is? Trumps everything else combined?






The Catholic Church has no official position on this.... Read the Catechism, all 800 pages of it, there is NO MENTION WHATSOEVER of how old the universe is. There is no more a Catholic teaching on this than there is a Lutheran teaching on this, although I'm sure you can find both Catholics and Lutherans who believe in flying purple people eaters and/or that Elvis Presley is alive or than Hitler lived to 89 years old in Argentina. None of which makes those teachings of Lutheranism or Catholicism.


So... the unofficial view of some Catholics about how old the universe is trumps DOGMAS of Transubstantiation, Purgatory, Infalliblity of the Pope, Mary as the Co-Redeemer, and other official, obligatory DOGMAS of the RCC? You'll throw out Lutheran teachings on Justification because you think more Catholics hold to a personal position on how old the Earth is than you think do in one of the 300+ Lutheran denominations? Wow.

What I Like About Lutheranism

The following is not at all meant to be all-inclusive or in any particular order.... 1. Humility.... mystery.... respect. In Lutheranism, there is a deep respect for what God says and a cooresponding humility in what we theorize. Great attention is given to what God said (the very...

www.christianityhaven.com

Reasons I Changed from Catholic to Lutheran

. Reasons this Catholic Became a Protestant.... I must begin by saying this was by far the hardest thing I've ever done in life.... I have Catholic roots going back CENTURIES.... my family is largely Catholic (not all active, however)... I LOVED my parish and felt deep roots there... and I...

www.christianityhaven.com

.

Ok dumb question alert but what are “Lutheran teachings on Justification?” and about the other things, purgatory, Mary, the Pope etc. I havent given all that much thought. Yet.

 

[Josiah]

Ok dumb question alert but what are “Lutheran teachings on Justification?” and about the other things, purgatory, Mary, the Pope etc. I havent given all that much thought. Yet.

Well...before you say that the opinion of two men is "the biggest issue" maybe you should learn other issues... ones that ARE actual teachings of Lutheranism (The Lutheran Confessions) and Catholicism (The Official Catechism)?

You PERSONALLY seem to hold to an opinion that the Earth and perhaps universe (sic) are over 6,000 years old. Okay. I'm SURE you'll find Lutherans and Catholics who agree and who disagree with you on that (and zillions of other issues), but neither has any dogma on that. Maybe you should focus on what DOGMAS they do have. When you officially join (Confirmation), you will be asked if you agree with THAT (for Lutherans, you'll be asked to agree with Luther's Small Catechism - not including any "explanations") and if Catholic if you docilicly accept whatever the RCC teaches as doctrine because it does. Neither will ask you a thing about how old the Earth or your car or your mother is.




.

 

[Faith]

Who says?

The people at the convention a few years ago made it sound that way to me…..though Josiah once already posted that really, it was just their opinion s. It binding.

 

[Faith]

Offhand, I'm hesitant to comment too much at this time, considering how much has already been posted in reply to your initial question, Faith, but I have two "feelings" about the matter--

1. You could probably solve the problem by staying Lutheran but choosing a congregation of the ELCA, as opposed to the LC-MS or WELS.

The ELCA is the largest of the Lutheran churches in the USA and does not require a strictly literal interpretation of such as the Bible's words that deal with the days of creation; and it now has Apostolic Succession thanks to the assistance of The Episcopal Church.

2. Return to the RCC and hope to find a parish and pastor that's more like what you hope for. You have wrestled quite a while with the problems that you have described to us, and it doesn't seem likely that you'll be satisfied in the long run by staying where you are.

I'd be interested to hear your reaction because I do hope you can find your 'right place.'

The only ELCA in town that I’m aware of is too far away from here for me to drive and is dwindling, They went from being a pretty vibrant church to losing their preschool and now they’re down to one service on Sunday.

 

[Faith]

Well...before you say that the opinion of two men is "the biggest issue" maybe you should learn other issues... ones that ARE actual teachings of Lutheranism (The Lutheran Confessions) and Catholicism (The Official Catechism)?

You PERSONALLY seem to hold to an opinion that the Earth and perhaps universe (sic) are over 6,000 years old. Okay. I'm SURE you'll find Lutherans and Catholics who agree and who disagree with you on that (and zillions of other issues), but neither has any dogma on that. Maybe you should focus on what DOGMAS they do have. When you officially join (Confirmation), you will be asked if you agree with THAT (for Lutherans, you'll be asked to agree with Luther's Small Catechism - not including any "explanations") and if Catholic if you docilicly accept whatever the RCC teaches as doctrine because it does. Neither will ask you a thing about how old the Earth or your car or your mother is.




.

I don’t think we have Confirmation at our church anymore. They have what’s called The Rooted Experience, now just called “Rooted” and then after something like 10 weeks there’s a dinner and a thing in the church where we’re introduced. We might’ve had to answer some questions or recite something but I don’t remember now.

 

[Castle Church]

The people at the convention a few years ago made it sound that way to me…..though Josiah once already posted that really, it was just their opinion s. It binding.

It is not binding, if they made that statement they were incorrect. Now, that said, it is by and large the view of the members in the denomination, and culturally holding a differing view could cause strife - but only if you decide to make it so. Just try and ignore conversations about it, I can't imagine it comes up in sermons often. Anyone that makes it seem like it is a Dogma or Doctrine is just incorrect.

The only ELCA in town that I’m aware of is too far away from here for me to drive and is dwindling, They went from being a pretty vibrant church to losing their preschool and now they’re down to one service on Sunday.

That's pretty much par for the course for ELCA churches. The two larger ELCA parishes here are pretty much in the same situation. Neither of those congregations will exist in 25 years, at most.

 

[Faith]

It is not binding, if they made that statement they were incorrect. Now, that said, it is by and large the view of the members in the denomination, and culturally holding a differing view could cause strife - but only if you decide to make it so. Just try and ignore conversations about it, I can't imagine it comes up in sermons often. Anyone that makes it seem like it is a Dogma or Doctrine is just incorrect.

That's pretty much par for the course for ELCA churches. The two larger ELCA parishes here are pretty much in the same situation. Neither of those congregations will exist in 25 years, at most.

typo. I meant it is not binding,

 

[Faith]

It is not binding, if they made that statement they were incorrect. Now, that said, it is by and large the view of the members in the denomination, and culturally holding a differing view could cause strife - but only if you decide to make it so. Just try and ignore conversations about it, I can't imagine it comes up in sermons often. Anyone that makes it seem like it is a Dogma or Doctrine is just incorrect.

That's pretty much par for the course for ELCA churches. The two larger ELCA parishes here are pretty much in the same situation. Neither of those congregations will exist in 25 years, at most.

Yeah, my friend goes there and from the way she talks, in time, the church will be no more. Which I don’t get since they’re such a big denomination in the USA