Can you lose your salvation?

[NewCreation435]

20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.” from 2 Peter 2:20-22

These verses above refer to those who have come to know the Lord and then are somehow entangled in the world and its corruption and then turn out worse than they were at the beginning. If you believe that you cannot lose your salvation, what do you make of these verses? Were these people actually ever truly saved to begin with? If not, how did they know the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

Please don't just give me the party line of your denomination, but address the passage above. What your denomination says makes no difference to me.

 

[Albion]

It is possible, of course, to sign onto Christianity but later drift away. Would this mean that you can lose your salvation? Not necessarily.

It could mean that 1) it wasn't real faith in the first place, although it looked and felt as though it was (there are causes that I, at one time or another, have thought were just wonderful -- for awhile but only for awhile). And it could mean that 2) the person may go through ups and downs in his life. If so, and he ends up as a believer, his salvation was secure after all.

 

[MennoSota]

You cannot gain your salvation, therefore it is not yours to lose.

 

[NewCreation435]

You cannot gain your salvation, therefore it is not yours to lose.

Okay. Then what does the passage mean in the opening post?

 

[NewCreation435]

It is possible, of course, to sign onto Christianity but later drift away. Would this mean that you can lose your salvation? Not necessarily.

It could mean that 1) it wasn't real faith in the first place, although it looked and felt as though it was (there are causes that I, at one time or another, have thought were just wonderful -- for awhile but only for awhile). And it could mean that 2) the person may go through ups and downs in his life. If so, and he ends up as a believer, his salvation was secure after all.

What do you mean by "sign on to christianity"?

 

[Albion]

What do you mean by "sign on to christianity"?

Make an intellectual commitment (to the religion), like deciding to be a Republican or a Pacifist. This commitment is more in the realm of belief as opposed to the Christian concept of Faith.

 

[Tigger]

20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.” from 2 Peter 2:20-22

These verses above refer to those who have come to know the Lord and then are somehow entangled in the world and its corruption and then turn out worse than they were at the beginning. If you believe that you cannot lose your salvation, what do you make of these verses? Were these people actually ever truly saved to begin with? If not, how did they know the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

Please don't just give me the party line of your denomination, but address the passage above. What your denomination says makes no difference to me.

Agreed, 1 Timothy 1:19

holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith
:tea:

 

[atpollard]

20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.” from 2 Peter 2:20-22

A hypothetical, just like ...

[1 Corinthians 15:16-19 NASB] 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

... does 1 Cor 15:16 mean that Christ was not raised and we are to be pitied?

 

[NewCreation435]

20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.” from 2 Peter 2:20-22

A hypothetical, just like ...

[1 Corinthians 15:16-19 NASB] 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

... does 1 Cor 15:16 mean that Christ was not raised and we are to be pitied?

So he's bringing up a hypothetical that couldn't actually happen. What would be the point of that? The 1 Cor 15:16 verse is clearly demonstrating the importance of the resurrection. What would be the point of a hypothetical in 2 Peter 2:20-22?

 

[MennoSota]

Okay. Then what does the passage mean in the opening post?

Peter is talking about false prophets in the church. He says they have knowledge of the Savior. He never says they had faith and lost their faith.
It seems that Peter is likening them to the parable Jesus gives of the demon possessed man who has the demon cast out and then later seven demons return to make his life worse than before.
We see this in cult leaders who know about Jesus, but don't have faith. Herbert W Armstrong and the Church of God is one such person. Charles Taze Russell is another. Ellen White and the 7th Day Adventist is another. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. Etc.
Peter warns us. He knew they were already in the church at Rome. He knew they would bring in heresies.

2 Peter 2:1,12-22 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction, suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, while they feast with you. They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children! Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing, but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness. These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved. For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error. They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.

For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the
knowledge
of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

Matthew 12:43-45 “When the unclean spirit has gone out of a person, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, but finds none. Then it says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when it comes, it finds the house empty, swept, and put in order. Then it goes and brings with it seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter and dwell there, and the last state of that person is worse than the first. So also will it be with this evil generation.”

 

[atpollard]

So he's bringing up a hypothetical that couldn't actually happen. What would be the point of that? The 1 Cor 15:16 verse is clearly demonstrating the importance of the resurrection. What would be the point of a hypothetical in 2 Peter 2:20-22?

The doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints claims that the people that God has foreknown and predestined and saved, will ultimately reach glorification because they WILL persevere to the end and WILL NOT fall away (Bare with me, I know that you do not want doctrine and I am making an actual point).

[Romans 8:28-30 NASB] 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.​

The “all things” in Romans 8:28 really does mean ALL things ... both good and bad. In Romans 8:30, “these whom He justified, He also glorified” also means EXACTLY what it says. The ones that started out “foreknown” will end up “glorified” because it is all about what God is doing.

Back to 2 Peter 2:20-22. God uses means to accomplish his goals. Jesus COULD have appeared to 4000 people on Pentecost and called the crowd like he did Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus, but God chose to use the Holy Spirit and tongues of fire and the praises of the Church and the preaching of Peter. With respect to Perseverance of the Saints, God also uses means. The warnings of scripture are the means that God uses to keep His chosen on the path to heaven. Those sealed with the Holy Spirit (a deposit guaranteeing the redemption of God’s possession) WILL LISTEN TO the warnings. Those who are not foreknown by God, the tares planted among the wheat and the wolves in sheep clothes, will not heed the warnings of scripture ... but that does not prove that they were once wheat, rather it proves that they were never wheat to begin with.

[1 John 2:19 NASB] 19 They went out from us, but they were not [really] of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but [they went out,] so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.​

 

[MoreCoffee]

One cannot lose what one does not yet have.

 

[MennoSota]

One cannot lose what one does not yet have.

And thus...infant baptism does not save...

 

[MoreCoffee]

And thus...infant baptism does not save...

It does. What it saves and how it saves is where your theology lets you down.

 

[Andrew]

It does. What it saves and how it saves is where your theology lets you down.

So Hitler who was baptised the year he was born made him a saved Christian, blameless before God?

 

[Arsenios]

20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
and are again entangled in it and are overcome,
they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness,
than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
22 Of them the proverbs are true:
“A dog returns to its vomit,”
and,
“A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”
from 2 Peter 2:20-22

So yea, the passage is clear - Turn away from knowing God and return to your sins and you will lose your salvation...

And you will be worse off than those who never knew God...

Paul says the same thing in Hebrews -

The end for such as these is only fit for burning...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

So Hitler who was baptised the year he was born made him a saved Christian, blameless before God?

I suspect that baptism outside the EOC may be exempt...

Worse for him if not...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

It is possible, of course, to sign onto Christianity but later drift away. Would this mean that you can lose your salvation? Not necessarily.

It could mean that 1) it wasn't real faith in the first place, although it looked and felt as though it was (there are causes that I, at one time or another, have thought were just wonderful -- for awhile but only for awhile). And it could mean that 2) the person may go through ups and downs in his life. If so, and he ends up as a believer, his salvation was secure after all.

Trials will come...

Purifying gold and silver...

Burning up dross...

But he who is persevering to the end will be saved...


Arsenios

 

[Andrew]

I suspect that baptism outside the EOC may be exempt...

Worse for him if not...


Arsenios

Exempt or invalid?

 

[atpollard]

Exempt or invalid?

I am pretty sure he was making a joke (and a funny one).