Can you lose your salvation?

[Arsenios]

Exempt or invalid?

Yes!

A.

ps - Almost a joke...

 

[Arsenios]

I am pretty sure he was making a joke (and a funny one).

I have a friend who lied his way into the EOC in his Confession...

He ended up delusional and was sent to state psychiatric hospital...

Where he completed his confession to psychiatrists there...

God will not be mocked...

He is now Roman Catholic...

I told him this Faith is REAL...

He did not believe me...

Now he knows...

A start, I say!!

He is obviously as hard-headed as I am!


Arsenios

 

[NewCreation435]

Peter is talking about false prophets in the church. He says they have knowledge of the Savior. He never says they had faith and lost their faith.
It seems that Peter is likening them to the parable Jesus gives of the demon possessed man who has the demon cast out and then later seven demons return to make his life worse than before.
We see this in cult leaders who know about Jesus, but don't have faith. Herbert W Armstrong and the Church of God is one such person. Charles Taze Russell is another. Ellen White and the 7th Day Adventist is another. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. Etc.
Peter warns us. He knew they were already in the church at Rome. He knew they would bring in heresies.

2 Peter 2:1,12-22 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction, suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, while they feast with you. They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children! Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing, but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness. These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved. For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error. They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.

For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the
knowledge
of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

Matthew 12:43-45 “When the unclean spirit has gone out of a person, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, but finds none. Then it says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when it comes, it finds the house empty, swept, and put in order. Then it goes and brings with it seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter and dwell there, and the last state of that person is worse than the first. So also will it be with this evil generation.”

One commentary I read says something similiar to what you have said here. Except that it says that the false prophets were misleading a small group of people who had heard the gospel and were a part of the community of faith, but had been mislead by these false prophets. So, their state now was worse than before because the truth was mixed with error. I do kinda like your interpretation better though

 

[Josiah]

This is my position (and why I reject the very late TULIP invention of "ONCE saved, ALWAYS saved")


Gospel:


Romans 8:29-39, For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "

Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 20:28, I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

1 Thess. 5:24, "The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Hebrews 10:14, "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Rev. 3:5, "I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."



Law:


John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Revelation 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Revelation 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."


I let God have the last word.
I let the Law be law.
I let the Gospel be Gospel.




.

 

[NewCreation435]

This is my position (and why I reject the very late TULIP invention of "ONCE saved, ALWAYS saved")


Gospel:


Romans 8:29-39, For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "

Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 20:28, I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

1 Thess. 5:24, "The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Hebrews 10:14, "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Rev. 3:5, "I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."



Law:


John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Revelation 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Revelation 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."


I let God have the last word.
I let the Law be law.
I let the Gospel be Gospel.




.

How do the verses your quoting deny the concept of once saved always saved?

 

[Josiah]

How do the verses your quoting deny the concept of once saved always saved?

"OSAS" flows from two assumptions:

1. Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide is wrong (as is John 3:16 and hundreds of other Scriptures); faith is irrelevant to justification; ALL that matters is that one is among the unnamed few for whom Jesus died and if such a one is given faith - they are saved, even if they thereafter lack faith, deny Christ and repudiate the Gospel: whole point, IF you are among the few for whom Jesus died and IF at AT ANY POINT in time you had faith ('once saved') ERGO that one "ALWAYS Saved" (at least from that point forward if not retroactively), faith need not be present at death if it was EVER actually, really, genuinely present (and there's no way to know that).


2. All of the Law passage teach that one CAN repudiate their faith. They can't create their faith but they can repudiate it. None of the Law passages mean anything if faith is irrelevant to justification and/or if it is impossible to repudiate and "fall" from faith.


IMO, it's good to accept and believe all the Scriptures (Law AND Gospel ones) - accepting all as true. NOT negating either in view of the other. But let the Law be law - a warning to those who would wreck their faith, and let the Gospel be Gosple to those who fear God's abandonment or their own inadequacy.

 

[MoreCoffee]

So Hitler who was baptised the year he was born made him a saved Christian, blameless before God?

Since you asked that question before and I answered it at some length I will just say, try to remember what was written before.

 

[NewCreation435]

"OSAS" flows from two assumptions:

1. Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide is wrong (as is John 3:16 and hundreds of other Scriptures); faith is irrelevant to justification; ALL that matters is that one is among the unnamed few for whom Jesus died and if such a one is given faith - they are saved, even if they thereafter lack faith, deny Christ and repudiate the Gospel: whole point, IF you are among the few for whom Jesus died and IF at AT ANY POINT in time you had faith ('once saved') ERGO that one "ALWAYS Saved" (at least from that point forward if not retroactively), faith need not be present at death if it was EVER actually, really, genuinely present (and there's no way to know that).


2. All of the Law passage teach that one CAN repudiate their faith. They can't create their faith but they can repudiate it. None of the Law passages mean anything if faith is irrelevant to justification and/or if it is impossible to repudiate and "fall" from faith.


IMO, it's good to accept and believe all the Scriptures (Law AND Gospel ones) - accepting all as true. NOT negating either in view of the other. But let the Law be law - a warning to those who would wreck their faith, and let the Gospel be Gosple to those who fear God's abandonment or their own inadequacy.

I've spent most of my Christian faith in the Baptist church and they normally teach "once saved, always saved" and I would say that your characterization of this doctrine as saying that faith is irrelevant is wrong. Faith is always relevant because without faith it is impossible to please God.

 

[MennoSota]

I've spent most of my Christian faith in the Baptist church and they normally teach "once saved, always saved" and I would say that your characterization of this doctrine as saying that faith is irrelevant is wrong. Faith is always relevant because without faith it is impossible to please God.

For me, once saved always saved assumes a timeline of specificity and often gets connected with a sinners prayer, which may be said by the faithless. An atheist can mouth the prayer. It doesn't make him saved.
Instead, I recognize that God has chosen his sheep before the foundation of the world so that the outcome has always been secure. Those whom God has chosen will come to know faith because God will make it so.
God, however, uses many means to bring his chosen to faith. His primary means is the witness and faithfulness of the saints as they preach the gospel from God's word. Those who are destined to faith will hear and believe. Those destined to damnation will hear and rebel.
The faithful will persevere.

 

[atpollard]

Can you lose your salvation?

Sometimes, I think ... "only by visiting Christian Websites"

 

[Josiah]

[MENTION=59]jsimms435[/MENTION]

I've spent most of my Christian faith in the Baptist church and they normally teach "once saved, always saved" and I would say that your characterization of this doctrine as saying that faith is irrelevant is wrong. Faith is always relevant because without faith it is impossible to please God.

I agree. But if faith only matters ONCE but not ALWAYS, then sometimes (perhaps most times) faith isn't important. ONCE saved, ALWAYS saved.


Except for the Universalists (an off shoot of exactly the same movement that gave us OSAS) ALL agree that where there is faith in Christ, there IS salvation. "Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide." One inseperible doctrine. All aspects need to be in place. And in traditional Protestantism, the issue is NOT the intensity or genuiness or quality of the faith but the OBJECT of the faith: if faith is in Christ (even the size of a Mustard seed, even if surrounded by cognative doubt) it is saving faith since it's the OBJECT of the faith that saves, not the sincerity or intensiity of the faith. Now, most of us would agree that there can be challenges and even lapses of faith that we would tend to see as not repudiations - and we'd likely say that such times do not destroy faith. Again, faith the size of a mustard seed, even is shrouded in doubts or confusion or "tough times" still lives.


The "problem" I see in OSAS is two-fold as it rejects the above.

1) It holds that salvation ALSO exists where faith does not. If one was EVER saved (say on May 22, 1948) THEREFORE they are saved today even if they are now a Muslim and have repudiated their Christianity, because "ONCE Saved, ALWAYS saved." IMO, there is no salvation where there is no faith. And IMO, this position makes all the Law verses I referenced wrong (or at least meaningless and irrelevant since they all speak to a situation that CANNOT ever exist)

2) To get around the above problem, such radical Calvinists will often say,"ah, but on May 22, 1948, he GENUINESLY said he believed, he was SINCERE in what he said - or so he THOUGHT- but he was wrong. That faith wasn't "real" or "geneuine" or "authentic" and thus not salvic. This puts the importance on the quality of the faith (which can NEVER be known - even to self) rather than on the OBJECT of faith.


I hold it is best to simply agree with what the Bible says. And leave it at that. Let God has His say. Let Gospel be Gospel and let Law be law.




.

 

[Josiah]

The faithful will persevere.

As Gospel, I'm okay with that. God will certainly never abandon us or "let go of my hand."

But there is Law, too. Luke 8:13, Galatians 5:4, 2 Peter 3:17 for starters.

I think the Gospel is true. I think the Law is true. Perhaps the importance is the APPLICATION; all the verses (and more) that I reference in post #24 are ALL 100% TRUE (NO words should be deleted, added or changed; nothing twisted to as to "mean" the opposite of what God said). But they all have an application. If I am troubled that my sin or doubt or troubles will terminate my justification - the Gospel verses speak to that. If I am prideful and think I can do and say what I like because on May 22, 1948 I had faith - then I think those Law verses come into play.



A blessed Easter Season to you and yours...



Josiah




.

 

[MennoSota]

[MENTION=59]jsimms435[/MENTION]







I agree. But if faith only matters ONCE but not ALWAYS, then sometimes (perhaps most times) faith isn't important. ONCE saved, ALWAYS saved.


Except for the Universalists (an off shoot of exactly the same movement that gave us OSAS) ALL agree that where there is faith in Christ, there IS salvation. "Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide." One inseperible doctrine. All aspects need to be in place. And in traditional Protestantism, the issue is NOT the intensity or genuiness or quality of the faith but the OBJECT of the faith: if faith is in Christ (even the size of a Mustard seed, even if surrounded by cognative doubt) it is saving faith since it's the OBJECT of the faith that saves, not the sincerity or intensiity of the faith. Now, most of us would agree that there can be challenges and even lapses of faith that we would tend to see as not repudiations - and we'd likely say that such times do not destroy faith. Again, faith the size of a mustard seed, even is shrouded in doubts or confusion or "tough times" still lives.


The "problem" I see in OSAS is two-fold as it rejects the above.

1) It holds that salvation ALSO exists where faith does not. If one was EVER saved (say on May 22, 1948) THEREFORE they are saved today even if they are now a Muslim and have repudiated their Christianity, because "ONCE Saved, ALWAYS saved." IMO, there is no salvation where there is no faith. And IMO, this position makes all the Law verses I referenced wrong (or at least meaningless and irrelevant since they all speak to a situation that CANNOT ever exist)

2) To get around the above problem, such radical Calvinists will often say,"ah, but on May 22, 1948, he GENUINESLY said he believed, he was SINCERE in what he said - or so he THOUGHT- but he was wrong. That faith wasn't "real" or "geneuine" or "authentic" and thus not salvic. This puts the importance on the quality of the faith (which can NEVER be known - even to self) rather than on the OBJECT of faith.


I hold it is best to simply agree with what the Bible says. And leave it at that. Let God has His say. Let Gospel be Gospel and let Law be law.




.

How could faith be a one time thing, Josiah, when it is a gift from God?

 

[MennoSota]

As Gospel, I'm okay with that. God will certainly never abandon us or "let go of my hand."

But there is Law, too. Luke 8:13, Galatians 5:4, 2 Peter 3:17 for starters.

I think the Gospel is true. I think the Law is true. Perhaps the importance is the APPLICATION; all the verses (and more) that I reference in post #24 are ALL 100% TRUE (NO words should be deleted, added or changed; nothing twisted to as to "mean" the opposite of what God said). But they all have an application. If I am troubled that my sin or doubt or troubles will terminate my justification - the Gospel verses speak to that. If I am prideful and think I can do and say what I like because on May 22, 1948 I had faith - then I think those Law verses come into play.



A blessed Easter Season to you and yours...



Josiah




.

The law is established to show our condemnation. Grace is given to show there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
If Christ Jesus is your shepherd, will he ever leave you or forsake you?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Can you lose your salvation?

Sometimes, I think ... "only by visiting Christian Websites"

Amen. Maybe not only but that is certainly one way to achieve it!

:ange06:

 

[NewCreation435]

[MENTION=59]jsimms435[/MENTION]







I agree. But if faith only matters ONCE but not ALWAYS, then sometimes (perhaps most times) faith isn't important. ONCE saved, ALWAYS saved.


Except for the Universalists (an off shoot of exactly the same movement that gave us OSAS) ALL agree that where there is faith in Christ, there IS salvation. "Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide." One inseperible doctrine. All aspects need to be in place. And in traditional Protestantism, the issue is NOT the intensity or genuiness or quality of the faith but the OBJECT of the faith: if faith is in Christ (even the size of a Mustard seed, even if surrounded by cognative doubt) it is saving faith since it's the OBJECT of the faith that saves, not the sincerity or intensiity of the faith. Now, most of us would agree that there can be challenges and even lapses of faith that we would tend to see as not repudiations - and we'd likely say that such times do not destroy faith. Again, faith the size of a mustard seed, even is shrouded in doubts or confusion or "tough times" still lives.


The "problem" I see in OSAS is two-fold as it rejects the above.

1) It holds that salvation ALSO exists where faith does not. If one was EVER saved (say on May 22, 1948) THEREFORE they are saved today even if they are now a Muslim and have repudiated their Christianity, because "ONCE Saved, ALWAYS saved." IMO, there is no salvation where there is no faith. And IMO, this position makes all the Law verses I referenced wrong (or at least meaningless and irrelevant since they all speak to a situation that CANNOT ever exist)

2) To get around the above problem, such radical Calvinists will often say,"ah, but on May 22, 1948, he GENUINESLY said he believed, he was SINCERE in what he said - or so he THOUGHT- but he was wrong. That faith wasn't "real" or "geneuine" or "authentic" and thus not salvic. This puts the importance on the quality of the faith (which can NEVER be known - even to self) rather than on the OBJECT of faith.


I hold it is best to simply agree with what the Bible says. And leave it at that. Let God has His say. Let Gospel be Gospel and let Law be law.




.

Well, it's possible then that I was never really around people who were truly Calvinistic. But, I do remember people stressing importance of what they would call the preservation of the saints meaning that if a person is truly saved then they will remain saved and if they do falter then they will eventually come back to the faith. Or they might say like your second point says that the person's faith wasn't saving faith and was only intellectual agreement.
Having said that, I have never been to a funeral where the pastor or preacher would say that the person wasn't saved. They always talk about heaven whether the person was a strong believer or not as though the promises of God are open to any and all without exception about how they lived.
Years ago, I met a man who said that he had passed away on the operating table and went to hell. He was only technically gone for a short period of time, but it literally changed his life and even after he got cancer he walked to church. Even though his body at that time was full of cancer and his grandchildren didn't get up for church he would walk the two blocks to get there. I guess you could say the experience scared the hell out of him.

 

[Arsenios]

Can you lose your Salvation?

Did Lucifer lose His?

Did Judas lose His?

Where in the Bible does it say that Judas was not truly saved?

Does the expression "Not truly Saved" even occur in the Bible?


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Can you lose your salvation?

Sometimes, I think ... "only by visiting Christian Websites"

AP, YOU da MAN!!




Arsenios

 

[atpollard]

Does the expression "Not truly Saved" even occur in the Bible?
Arsenios

Kinda, sorta, almost ... if you squint:

[1Jo 2:19 NASB] 19 They went out from us, but they were not [really] of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but [they went out,] so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

 

[atpollard]

Did Judas lose His?
Where in the Bible does it say that Judas was not truly saved?

Arsenios

Judas is always a hard case to wrap my hands around and come up with a definitive answer from scripture.
On the one hand ...

[Mar 3:14-15 NASB] 14 And He appointed twelve, so that they would be with Him and that He [could] send them out to preach, 15 and to have authority to cast out the demons.


And on the other hand ...

[Jhn 6:70 NASB] 70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and [yet] one of you is a devil?"

[Jhn 17:12 NASB] 12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.