Calvinism Vs Arminian

[Andrew]

Have you not read who the children of the promise are? Have you not read about being grafted in? Have you not read that not all Israel is Israel?
Pick up your Bible, Andrew.

Yes yes I know all of this thank you.
I still believe that according to TULIP God had already selected the majority to sin be pre rejected by God, if God hates sin so much he certainly wouldn't predestine the majority to sin and not repent, seriously why would he do that?

 

[Albion]

Yes yes I know all of this thank you.
I still believe that according to TULIP God had already selected the majority to sin be pre rejected by God, if God hates sin so much he certainly wouldn't predestine the majority to sin and not repent, seriously why would he do that?

I don't think that the belief is that he predestines them to sin. However, I know that a Calvinist would explain this point better.

 

[MennoSota]

Yes, God's grace to me is unmerited that is why it is grace, and salvation is by grace so all the saved are saved by grace not by works. No one merits salvation even though many have done meritorious good works by the grace of God. Salvation is by the grace of God, it is an act of mercy not a payment of a debt.

So...unmerited election?
Do you deny that there are the elect?

 

[MennoSota]

Yes yes I know all of this thank you.
I still believe that according to TULIP God had already selected the majority to sin be pre rejected by God, if God hates sin so much he certainly wouldn't predestine the majority to sin and not repent, seriously why would he do that?

God does not select any to sin. Humans sin by the very nature of their corruption via the fall. Adam broke the covenant and thus brought all mankind under the curse of sin.
God selects whom He will reconcile from all the fallen.
He doesn't select all. We don't know why. He doesn't leave all to the curse. We don't know why. Instead, God chose, from before the foundation of the world, whom He would select to be reconciled.
Is God evil for not selecting all?

 

[Josiah]

WATCH OUT for continuing hyper-Calvinism' games....

The "U" stands for predestination. Which hyper-Calvinism argues is DOUBLE predestiantion (MANY non-Calvinists believe that ELECTION of the saved is biblical, .the whole point here is on the UNSAVED and the dogma is that they TOO are predestined - a predestination to HEAVEN and an equal predestination to HELL - God desires and causes a few to go to heaven but most to fry in hell."

Now, here's where they can get slippery. They will TRY to contradict and run from their own dogma. The dogma is predestination. The word means "TO CAUSE" "TO BRING ABOUT" "TO MAKE HAPPEN." So their spin that well, TULIP is ONLY saying what non-Calvinists believe, that God elects the saved (and it might be others aren't saved simply by not being saved; what they like to call "passive predestination" except there is no such thing, it is an oxymoron) but this is pure silliness. There is no such thing as predestination that is not active - it's what the word means, it's what the doctrine is, the word and idea is "TO CAUSE, TO MAKE HAPPEN." It is the antithesis of passive. So..... either they need to eliminate this letter TOO and admit there is no double predestination OR they need to own up to the horror of TULIP - that God equally CAUSES people to be saved AND to be DAMNED, that He equally desires some to be saved and some to fry. They can't have it both ways because "passive predestination" is a contradiction, an oxymoron, just a game hyper-Calvinists like to play.

 

[Andrew]

WATCH OUT for continuing hyper-Calvinism' games....

The "U" stands for predestination. Which hyper-Calvinism argues is DOUBLE predestiantion (MANY non-Calvinists believe that ELECTION of the saved is biblical, .the whole point here is on the UNSAVED and the dogma is that they TOO are predestined - a predestination to HEAVEN and an equal predestination to HELL - God desires and causes a few to go to heaven but most to fry in hell."

Now, here's where they can get slippery. They will TRY to contradict and run from their own dogma. The dogma is predestination. The word means "TO CAUSE" "TO BRING ABOUT" "TO MAKE HAPPEN." So their spin that well, TULIP is ONLY saying what non-Calvinists believe, that God elects the saved (and it might be others aren't saved simply by not being saved; what they like to call "passive predestination" except there is no such thing, it is an oxymoron) but this is pure silliness. There is no such thing as predestination that is not active - it's what the word means, it's what the doctrine is, the word and idea is "TO CAUSE, TO MAKE HAPPEN." It is the antithesis of passive. So..... either they need to eliminate this letter TOO and admit there is no double predestination OR they need to own up to the horror of TULIP - that God equally CAUSES people to be saved AND to be DAMNED, that He equally desires some to be saved and some to fry. They can't have it both ways because "passive predestination" is a contradiction, an oxymoron, just a game hyper-Calvinists like to play.

Ah, exactly my point in post 241

 

[MoreCoffee]

So...unmerited election?
Do you deny that there are the elect?

Unmerited grace is given to all. The holy scriptures testify to that. Let me show you.

Matthew 5:43-48 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.​

It is evident that God is merciful to all and gives grace to all.

If you reply that sunshine & rain are not the same as saving grace then I say,

"Yes, that is true.
Yet saving grace is God giving himself in creation as the man Jesus Christ
and sunshine & rain is God giving life by means of light and rain which cause food to grow which are things he has created
so although they are different and the former is by far the greater (infinitely so) it is nevertheless true
that the goodness and kindness that motivates the latter also motivates the former
only more so.
It is a matter of degrees.
God loves his human creation and is not willing that any should perish but that
all should come to a knowledge of the truth and be saved."

Maybe that will not satisfy you but it satisfies me and possibly others in CH too.

 

[MennoSota]

Unmerited grace is given to all. The holy scriptures testify to that. Let me show you.

Matthew 5:43-48 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.​

It is evident that God is merciful to all and gives grace to all.

If you reply that sunshine & rain are not the same as saving grace then I say,

"Yes, that is true.
Yet saving grace is God giving himself in creation as the man Jesus Christ
and sunshine & rain is God giving life by means of light and rain which cause food to grow which are things he has created
so although they are different and the former is by far the greater (infinitely so) it is nevertheless true
that the goodness and kindness that motivates the latter also motivates the former
only more so.
It is a matter of degrees.
God loves his human creation and is not willing that any should perish but that
all should come to a knowledge of the truth and be saved."

Maybe that will not satisfy you but it satisfies me and possibly others in CH too.

Unmerited mercy is also given to all, but we're talking about salvation by grace.
Do you claim that everyone receives unmerited grace so that they are saved? Or is that limited?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Unmerited mercy is also given to all, but we're talking about salvation by grace.
Do you claim that everyone receives unmerited grace so that they are saved? Or is that limited?

Holy scripture says: [God] will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

So yes, God gives saving grace to all by means of them coming to a knowledge of the truth.

 

[Arsenios]

Unmerited mercy is also given to all, but we're talking about salvation by grace.
Do you claim that everyone receives unmerited grace so that they are saved? Or is that limited?

Is there even the possibility that ANY of God's Grace is somehow merited?

I think not...

Yet it is God "Who will have all men to be saved,
and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."1Ti 2:4

God clearly desires all to be saved...

He does not cause any to be lost...

Yet many are lost...

What you DO matters...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

WATCH OUT for continuing hyper-Calvinism' games....

The "U" stands for predestination. Which hyper-Calvinism argues is DOUBLE predestiantion (MANY non-Calvinists believe that ELECTION of the saved is biblical, .the whole point here is on the UNSAVED and the dogma is that they TOO are predestined - a predestination to HEAVEN and an equal predestination to HELL - God desires and causes a few to go to heaven but most to fry in hell."

Now, here's where they can get slippery. They will TRY to contradict and run from their own dogma. The dogma is predestination. The word means "TO CAUSE" "TO BRING ABOUT" "TO MAKE HAPPEN." So their spin that well, TULIP is ONLY saying what non-Calvinists believe, that God elects the saved (and it might be others aren't saved simply by not being saved; what they like to call "passive predestination" except there is no such thing, it is an oxymoron) but this is pure silliness. There is no such thing as predestination that is not active - it's what the word means, it's what the doctrine is, the word and idea is "TO CAUSE, TO MAKE HAPPEN." It is the antithesis of passive. So..... either they need to eliminate this letter TOO and admit there is no double predestination OR they need to own up to the horror of TULIP - that God equally CAUSES people to be saved AND to be DAMNED, that He equally desires some to be saved and some to fry. They can't have it both ways because "passive predestination" is a contradiction, an oxymoron, just a game hyper-Calvinists like to play.

That is the problem with any doctrine of pre-destination - It takes man out of his Salvation by God... What man does is the basis of God's Judgement...

God has absolute foreknowledge, yet we can ask Him and we will receive, or not...

We have to live in the Mystery that abides there...

The Faith of Christ is not a system of fallen human reasoning, but is the Great Mystery of the Marriage of the Lamb...

And THAT marriage does not abide adultery in any of its various charms...

And that means no embracing of sin...

You only need to get back up one more time than you fall...


Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

That is the problem with any doctrine of pre-destination - It takes man out of his Salvation by God... What man does is the basis of God's Judgement...

I could not disagree more.

I hold that Jesus is the Savior, not self. Not now, not ever. Not 100% and not 0.000001%



The problem with hyper-Calvinism's "DOUBLE predestination" is that it's clearly unbiblical, God does NOT desire and cause most people to fry in hell. Even the hyper-Calvinists of TODAY skirt and dance around this point, even they don't like this point. They will make the ABSURD and illogical and impossible and silly argument that God elects to give faith to some - and simply and only by not giving it to some, predestines them to Hell. It's one of the silliest points in all Christianity. The very word they use - predestine - MEANS to cause. So when they say God predestines some to hell, that means God CAUSES it. Predestine is an active word, it cannot be passive. But this idea of TULIP is so unbiblical, so repulsive, so absurd EVEN to hyper-Calvinists that they effectively deny it.

Calvinists are RIGHT in affirming monergism and elect of the saved. But this DOUBLE predestination idea is unbiblical and so terrible that even hyper-Calvinists today reject it. As they should. But instead of saying nonsense, they should just admit there is no predestination to hell (Lutherans are right, lol).

God has absolute foreknowledge

Sorry, foreknowledge and predestination has nothing to do with each other. One means simply to KNOW and the other means to CAUSE. I know the sun will come up tomorrow, I don't cause it.





.

 

[MennoSota]

Holy scripture says: [God] will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

So yes, God gives saving grace to all by means of them coming to a knowledge of the truth.

Sounds like you are a universalist. All people go to heaven.

 

[MennoSota]

Is there even the possibility that ANY of God's Grace is somehow merited?

I think not...

Yet it is God "Who will have all men to be saved,
and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."1Ti 2:4

God clearly desires all to be saved...

He does not cause any to be lost...

Yet many are lost...

What you DO matters...


Arsenios

So God desires all to be saved and no one merits salvation. Therefore all must be saved...or...man's desires are more powerful than God's desires.

 

[Josiah]

So God desires all to be saved and no one merits salvation. Therefore all must be saved.

Just one of the fundamental errors of hyper-Calvinism....

....again (as with nearly all the points of TULIP) you have eliminated faith from justification, regarding faith to be irrelevant and useless. If MennoSota returned to biblical Christianity, he would not eliminate faith. Yes, God loves all (that's what the Bible verbatim and very often says).... Yes, God desires all to be saved (it's what the Bible verbatim and often says)... Yes, Jesus died for all (it's exactly what the Bible verbatim and often says)... but not all have faith, thus not all benefit from that.

Sounds like you are a universalist. All people go to heaven.

.... only because you just delete the word "faith".

Universalism is an outgrowth of hyper-Calvinism, and thus happened for the very reason we see constantly in MennoSota - the dismissal of any role of faith in justification. It's just that many hyper-Calvinists realized the Bible is not lying when it SO OFTEN verbatim says that Jesus died for all... thus.... since they had eliminated faith.... all must be saved. We see this fundamental error in MennoSota (perhaps he will next follow his brothers into universalism - if he finally realizes that they did).

No. Faith is not irrelevant, moot, meaningless, useless. Faith is what apprehends/embraces/trusts/relies upon that grace and atoning work - thus the individual with faith benefits from it. So, yes - Jesus died for all. And no - not all are saved since not all have faith. Ain't that hard to understand unless folks do as the hyper-Calvinists do: eliminate faith from any role in justification.




.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Sounds like you are a universalist. All people go to heaven.

You say the cutest things, like my great niece - she's 3 years old

 

[Arsenios]

So...unmerited election?
Do you deny that there are the elect?

The elect are so by the fore-knowledge of God...

They are not so by His designation of privilege...

Rom 8:29-30
For whom He did foreknow,
He also did fore-ordain
to be conformed to the image of His Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Moreover whom He did foreordain,
them He also called:
and whom He called,
them He also justified:
and whom He justified,
them He also glorified.

The arbitrary unmerited pre-selection by God is not in evidence here...
But foreknowledge sure is...
The criteria of whom He Calls to Repentance...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

So God desires all to be saved and no one merits salvation.

It is not possible for the dead to merit Life,
and we who are fallen are all born to die...
Christ Himself died... (granted, only voluntarily giving up His soul...)
Christ is the only one to merit Life, because He IS Life...

That is why we are Baptized INTO Christ...
Christ is where Life IS...
Christ's Death is OUR Life...
We are Baptized INTO His Death...

The Life of Christ is Uncreated and Eternal...
We are created creatures laden with death...

Therefore all must be saved...or...man's desires are more powerful than God's desires.

Sophmoric and fallen human reasoning and logic...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

You say the cutest things, like my great niece - she's 3 years old

Read your own words. It is you who prescribe universalism with your own words.

 

[MennoSota]

It is not possible for the dead to merit Life,
and we who are fallen are all born to die...
Christ Himself died... (granted, only voluntarily giving up His soul...)
Christ is the only one to merit Life, because He IS Life...

That is why we are Baptized INTO Christ...
Christ is where Life IS...
Christ's Death is OUR Life...
We are Baptized INTO His Death...

The Life of Christ is Uncreated and Eternal...
We are created creatures laden with death...



Sophmoric and fallen human reasoning and logic...


Arsenios

You didn't actually address the universalism taught by MC.