Born again

[donadams]

Let’s start with a statement we can both agree with.

Jesus Christ (the truth Jn 14:6) said: you cannot enter the kingdom unless you are born again!

Jn 3:5

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Now we agree a man must be born again to enter the kingdom of God and to be in Christ the one mediator and in communion with God and His saints!

How do we become born again?

2 pet 1: 11

For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Born again by Water AND the spirit!
Baptismal regeneration in Jesus Christ!

Jn 3:22

After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

Not with the baptism of John for repentance only but as John describes the new birth by baptism (water) and (the spirit) (and fire) the Christian sacrament of baptismal regeneration!

This is the new birth, we are born again, born from above, supernatural birth, we are in Christ a new creation by water and the spirit!

You CANNOT deny Jn 3:5 and being born again means baptismal Regeneration in Jesus Christ!
A new creation in Christ!

Prophecy ez 36:25-27 God baptizes us by water and the spirit!
Baptismal regeneration by water and the spirit.
John the Baptist prepared the way by baptism of repentance. Matt 3:8 Jn 1
John the Baptist declared Christ would baptize (water) and with the spirit. Jn 1:33
The waters of purification Jn 2 prefigured baptismal regeneration
Baptismal regeneration by water and the spirit Jn 3:5
Jesus makes disciples by baptism in Jn 4:1
Faith and baptism required for eternal salvation. Mk 16:16 Matt 28:19 acts 8:36-38

Context of Jn 1-4 is baptismal regeneration in Christ Jesus!

To be born again means baptismal regeneration in Jesus Christ!

“Faith alone” is not found in scripture!!!

The five Protestant sola‘s do not include being born again or baptismal regeneration!

Effects of baptismal regeneration:

Faith, hope, and charity are gifts of God that we receive with the grace of baptismal regeneration. (Fire) Matt 3:11 Love of God. Ez 36:25-27
Rom 5:5

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!


The Christian sacrament* of baptismal regeneration is required for the new covenant and salvation!

*this promise acts 2:38-39 is a sacred oath from God ez 36:25-27 and a sacred oath is a sacrament!

Initiation!!!

Faith & Baptism is the initiation of the new and eternal covenant!

You cannot enter on you’re own or by “faith alone”!

You cannot receive Christ or grace by “faith alone”!

“Accept Christ as you’re personal lord and savior” is fundamentalist tradition not found scripture!

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Baptismal regeneration a new creation in Christ! 2 Cor 5:17

A sacrament is an oath! A sacred promise from God! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 (this promise)

No baptism no grace!

A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!

As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!

without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!

Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!

They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “

They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22

A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

Acts 22:16 washing away your sins.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 pet 3:21 baptism saves you.

You cannot enter on you’re own or by faith alone!

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Baptism!

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2

Born again! Born from above!

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!

Christ instituted the holy church for the salvation of all men, (repent and believe the gospel, with the institution of the sacraments to convey grace to sanctify souls! Matt 28:19

 

[Albion]

Let’s start with a statement we can both agree with.

Good idea.

Jesus Christ (the truth Jn 14:6) said: you cannot enter the kingdom unless you are born again!

Jn 3:5

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Now we agree a man must be born again to enter the kingdom of God and to be in Christ the one mediator and in communion with God and His saints!

How do we become born again?

2 pet 1: 11

For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Born again by Water AND the spirit!
Baptismal regeneration in Jesus Christ!

Jn 3:22

After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

Not with the baptism of John for repentance only but as John describes the new birth by baptism (water) and (the spirit) (and fire) the Christian sacrament of baptismal regeneration!

This is the new birth, we are born again, born from above, supernatural birth, we are in Christ a new creation by water and the spirit!

You CANNOT deny Jn 3:5 and being born again means baptismal Regeneration in Jesus Christ!
A new creation in Christ!

Yes. Most Christians and most churches agree with this.

“Faith alone” is not found in scripture!!!

How did we suddenly get to "Faith Alone" after all that material about Baptism??

The five Protestant sola‘s do not include being born again or baptismal regeneration!

Only because they do not intend to deal with that particular issue. The typical Protestant church, however, does agree with what you laid out about Baptism at the start of your post. And just about EVERY last Protestant denomination values and observes Baptism.

Effects of baptismal regeneration:

Faith, hope, and charity are gifts of God that we receive with the grace of baptismal regeneration. (Fire) Matt 3:11 Love of God. Ez 36:25-27
Rom 5:5

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!

Well, you're wrong about that. Faith is connected to salvation. Baptism doesn't confer salvation in either your church or any of the Protesant churches. The two are not an "either-or" pairing, but deal with different (and usually complimentary) principles.

You simply have misunderstood the Protestant stance here. Perhaps it would help if you explained what it is that you think Faith does and what about that you disagree with.

The Christian sacrament* of baptismal regeneration is required for the new covenant and salvation!

Okay.

*this promise acts 2:38-39 is a sacred oath from God ez 36:25-27 and a sacred oath is a sacrament!

Initiation!!!

A sacred oath is not a sacrament. Sorry, no. I think I know what you are trying to get at, but an oath is not the definition of a sacrament.

 

[Josiah]

You simply have misunderstood the Protestant stance here.

Correct.


We could discuss.... but I don't see anything that suggests our Catholic friend has any interest in discussion. And he seems to be "all over the map", mixing up all kinds of different things, making discussion very difficult. Unfortunate.


IF we could focus on the supposed topic, "Born Again," we'd actually find that Catholics and most Protestants are very similar. Catholics may refer to this as "initial grace" and Sacramental churches will speak of Baptism here (whereas some Protestants would mention only the Bible).... Monergists will credit God with it all, Synergists will credit a cooperative effort between the dead unbeliever and God... but we'd all see this as personal justification, the dawn of a new relationship with God, and we'd speak of the growing process that follows.



.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Let’s start with a statement we can both agree with.

Jesus Christ (the truth Jn 14:6) said: you cannot enter the kingdom unless you are born again!

I prefer "born from above"

 

[MoreCoffee]

You simply have misunderstood the Protestant stance here.

Is there just one?

 

[donadams]

Good idea.

Yes. Most Christians and most churches agree with this.

How did we suddenly get to "Faith Alone" after all that material about Baptism??

Only because they do not intend to deal with that particular issue. The typical Protestant church, however, does agree with what you laid out about Baptism at the start of your post. And just about EVERY last Protestant denomination values and observes Baptism.

Well, you're wrong about that. Faith is connected to salvation. Baptism doesn't confer salvation in either your church or any of the Protesant churches. The two are not an "either-or" pairing, but deal with different (and usually complimentary) principles.

You simply have misunderstood the Protestant stance here. Perhaps it would help if you explained what it is that you think Faith does and what about that you disagree with.

Okay.

A sacred oath is not a sacrament. Sorry, no. I think I know what you are trying to get at, but an oath is not the definition of a sacrament.

There are only two options baptism or faith alone
Yes most accept baptism but not with proper intention: proper form: or proper matter:

You right, by not baptism alone no, but faith and baptism

faith and baptism are the means of grace and initiation into Christ his new covenant church
Baptism washes away sin and saved us, 1 pet 3:20
Sealed in the ark of salvation by faith and baptism
The nicene creed says “one baptism for the forgiveness of sins”
Thanks

 

[donadams]

Proper intention of valid baptism:

The initiation into the new covenant of grace unto the salvation of the soul, nicene creed, “one baptism for the forgiveness of sins”.

Brought to life. Jn 14:6 eph 2:1 quickened.

Believers baptism is not valid and not found in scripture.
Adult only baptism is not found in scripture.

Proper form of valid baptism:

Valid Christian baptism requires flowing water over the forehead three times.

With the words:

I baptize you in the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit! Matt 28:19

Immersion, pouring, or sprinkling 3 time with pure water are the valid matter of baptism.

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

 

[Albion]

There are only two options baptism or faith alone

Yet most Christian denominations see the two as separate issues. Even your own church does that. It does not consider the reception of Baptism to be a meritorious work performed by the candidate. No, they're different steps in the process of salvation and it is possible to hold to one of several different views of the "how" and "why" of the sacrament of Baptism and then believe in one of several different views of the role of Faith.

You, in your replies, seemed to want to make them be elements of one experience only.

 

[Albion]

Believers baptism is not valid and not found in scripture.
Adult only baptism is not found in scripture.

What does that have to do with Faith Alone? You are again making different issues seem like they are interchangeable.

Proper form of valid baptism:

Valid Christian baptism requires flowing water over the forehead three times.

Why would you say that? Your own church doesn't take that approach.

 

[Josiah]

There are only two options baptism or faith alone

No.

There is dispute among Christians concerning the Means of Grace in personal justification (including if Baptism is such), but the VAST majority of Christians (Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic) hold that we are justified because of Grace via Christ which is apprehended by Faith; they accept John 3:16. So, the necessity of faith IS accepted ("Sola Fide"). Now, some are synergists and/or Pelagianists and hold that Christ's works alone cannot save (we must add OUR works to complete things, Christ's atoning work is insufficient to save anyone) but even there, FAITH is embraced as essential and thus Sola Fide embraced. And still others are Arminianists and hold that faith is something the dead unbeliever creates and gives to self, but even there, FAITH is viewed as essential and thus Sola Fide is embraced.


Don, I disagree with you that great many Christians disagree with Jesus who specifically stated that "you must be born again." I think most Christians hold that Jesus was likely right about that. I even think we generally have a very similar idea of what that means. Not exactly how that comes about but what it means.


We certainly DO disagree on whether Baptism is a means of grace.... whether faith is purely the work and gift of God or something dead, atheistic enemies of God give to themselves.... we even disagree a bit on the whole issue of justification. But it's rare to find those who hold that faith is irrelevant to justification. It exists (mostly among radical Calvinists and Universalists) but it's very rare.



.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

.
FAQ: Why did Jesus say it's a "must" to be born again? (John 3:7)

REPLY: Because some folks were born wrong the first time.

For example: David believed he was a sinner even before he was a baby; right at
the moment of his conception.

• Ps 51:5 . . Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived
me.

And some folks are natural-born liars.

• Ps 58:3 . .The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go
astray from birth.

Apparently it isn't necessary to commit a sin in order to be classified as a sinner.
It's the nature of our species. For example a lion need not eat meat to be classified
as a carnivore because it's the nature of his species.

• Rom 3:23 . . all have sinned.

In order for the past-tense grammar of that verse to be true of "all" then everyone
from the first to last, is classified as a sinner: even folks who have yet to be born in
the future. They too "have sinned" because God can see things about them that we
cannot see.

Now again, in order for the past-tense grammar of that verse to be true of "all"
then it has to include every baby; even those not yet born.
_

 

[Albion]

.
FAQ: Why did Jesus say it's a "must" to be born again? (John 3:7)

REPLY: Because some folks were born wrong the first time.

Uh, no. Some folks were not "born wrong."

Jesus was saying it is necessary to be born in an additional, spiritual, way that goes beyond mere physical birth.

For example: David believed he was a sinner even before he was a baby; right at
the moment of his conception.

We all are sinners from birth.

Apparently it isn't necessary to commit a sin in order to be classified as a sinner.
It's the nature of our species.

That's right. It's what has historically been called "Original Sin."

• Rom 3:23 . . all have sinned.

What's being said there is that, in addition to Original Sin, we all have committed sins on our own.

 

[Lamb]

I prefer "born from above"

Exactly! That's the way it should be translated.

 

[Albion]

Exactly! That's the way it should be translated.

However, it doesn't exactly convey the same meaning as "Born again" does, wouldn't you agree?

Yes, "Born from above" is theologically correct, but "Born again" conveys the idea that Christ was explaining to Nicodemus--we have been born into the world, but then we need also to have a new start that only can be had through believing in and trusting Our Lord (whether by baptism or a conversion experience, depending on one's particular denomination).

 

[Origen]

Exactly! That's the way it should be translated.

However, it doesn't exactly convey the same meaning as "Born again" does, wouldn't you agree?

Yes, "Born from above" is theologically correct, but "Born again" conveys the idea that Christ was explaining to Nicodemus--we have been born into the world, but then we need also to have a new start that only can be had through believing in and trusting Our Lord (whether by baptism or a conversion experience, depending on one's particular denomination).

Since both are grammatically possible, perhaps it would be better to understand it as a double entendre. In other words Jesus wanted to convey both ideas. It is not a case of either\or but both\and. Just my two cents on the matter.

 

[Albion]

OKay, but it seems to me that there's nothing wrong or lacking with the customary wording--"Born Again."

 

[MoreCoffee]

"Born again" does carry the misunderstanding that Nicodemus held when he questioned Jesus' use of the term. Jesus said "born from above" and Nicodemus took him to mean "born again" and implied that a man cannot enter his mother's womb a second time to be born again. So Jesus had to explain that he meant being born of water and the Spirit.

Jesus answered: In all truth I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above. Nicodemus said, 'How can anyone who is already old be born? Is it possible to go back into the womb again and be born?' Jesus replied: In all truth I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born through water and the Spirit; what is born of human nature is human; what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be surprised when I say: You must be born from above.​

John 3:3-7
It is better, in my opinion, to abandon Nicodemus' misunderstanding and use "born from above" and "born through water and the Spirit" as in better keeping with Jesus' intended meaning.

 

[Albion]

"Born again" does carry the misunderstanding that Nicodemus held when he questioned Jesus' use of the term. Jesus said "born from above" and Nicodemus took him to mean "born again" and implied that a man cannot enter his mother's womb a second time to be born again. So Jesus had to explain that he meant being born of water and the Spirit.

That's true, he did. BUT we know what was meant by the term, and everyone who uses it in a religious discussion these days knows what it means.

I have never met anyone who, upon hearing somebody refer to being "born again" in a discussion about faith or baptism or conversion, took the expression to mean going again into one's mother's womb.

John 3:3-7
It is better, in my opinion, to abandon Nicodemus' misunderstanding and use "born from above"

What Christian DOES adhere to Nicodemus' misunderstanding?

There's nothing wrong with saying "born from above." Insisting that it should be used instead of "born again," however, is suggesting that we solve a problem that doesn't exist.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

.
• John 3:3-4 . . Jesus declared: I tell you the truth; no one can see the kingdom of
God unless he is born again. How can a man be born when he is old? Nicodemus
asked. Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!

No sir; one thing's for sure: it isn't a do-over.

Man came into being as a creature constructed from nature, i.e. Man is a natural
soul.

In contrast, the Man about which Jesus spoke is constructed from above-- i.e.
Heaven --so that he comes into being as a supernatural soul.

• John 3:5-6 . . Jesus answered: I tell you the truth; no one can enter the kingdom
of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the
Spirit gives birth to spirit.

NOTE: The chemistry of the "water" is very controversial. I'm satisfied knowing
what it is for myself, but do not care to discuss it.

* According to Jesus, the Spirit birth and the kingdom of God are earthly things
(John 3:12) so we're not talking about getting into Heaven, rather; we're talking
about citizenship in the millennium, i.e. Messiah's return and his governance of the
current scheme of things.

Seeing as how all the Old Testament luminaries were looking forward to that
kingdom, then they too will have to undergo the Spirit birth the same as everybody
else, viz: the "no one" in John 3:5 means just exactly that; no exceptions, viz:
Christians don't have a lock on this procedure, i.e. they don't own it.

FAQ: How does one get in on this Spirit birth requirement?

REPLY: I highly recommend beginning your application by following the example of
Jesus' crucified friend; like this:

• Luke 23:39-42 . . One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him:
Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us! But the other criminal rebuked him.
Don't you fear God, he said, since you are under the same sentence? We are
punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done
nothing wrong. Then he said: Jesus, remember me when you come into your
kingdom.

That man's confession, and his prayer, were 110% successful.

• Luke 23:43 . . Jesus answered him: I tell you the truth, today you will be with me
in paradise.
_

 

[MoreCoffee]

There's nothing wrong with saying "born from above." Insisting that it should be used instead of "born again," however, is suggesting that we solve a problem that doesn't exist.

To prefer is not to insist. To express an opinion is not to insist.

I prefer "born from above"

It is better, in my opinion, to abandon Nicodemus' misunderstanding and use "born from above" and "born through water and the Spirit" as in better keeping with Jesus' intended meaning.