Biblical understanding

[donadams]

@donadams as you yourself prove....

Scripture never mentions your church.
Scripture never promises anything to your church.
Scripture never authorizes anything to your church.
Scripture never exempts your church from anything.


The Catholic Church makes ENORMOUS claims for ITSELF. And based on that, tells you to "docilicly" accept all of it. And you do. It's what makes you a Catholic. CCC 87, etc. But all these claims come from just itself. I think we all know that. You can choose to submit to all this - and no one here would deprive you of that - but it is what it is, a church CLAIMING much for it itself (with nothing but it itself to point to for this) and you "docilicly" going along. This has little to do with understanding Scripture and obviously is antithetical to resolving conflict and to the whole church.




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There is only one church! Matt 16:18-19 Jn 10:16

Only Christ has authority to found the church all others are heretical sects the tradition of men!

Prophecy of the new covenant and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (The new covenant church) Jn 15:1-5 (the church is the new Jerusalem the kingdom) gal 4:26 (one church) Jn 10:16

Dan 2: 44 And in the days of these kings (Roman Caesars) shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Isaiah 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Micah 4:1
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

Daniel 7:18
But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Rev 21: 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Matt 21:43 taken from Israel given to Peter and the apostles Matt 16:18-19 18:18 Jn 20:21 eph 2:20


1 Peter 4:11
If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:8
Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Jude 1:25
To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Christ is king and has all authority and dominion!

Christ appointed Peter, the apostles, and their successors to govern the church and administer the kingdom until He returns in glory!

Submission and obedience to them is submission and obedience to Christ!

Like Joseph under pharaoh the king and his brothers bowed in obedience to Him as God willed!

But Protestant fundamentalists will not, for satan the first Protestant was in rebellion against God saying: I will not serve! I will not obey!

So who is you’re leader?

All those who submit and obey are Christ’s!

 

[Albion]

There is only one church! Matt 16:18-19 Jn 10:16

Okay. You have not answered the questions, so we can only assume that, like any loyal son of the Roman Church, it is the Roman Catholic Church that you are referring to whenever you speak of "only one church," etc.

Christ appointed Peter, the apostles, and their successors to govern the church and administer the kingdom until He returns in glory!

So, you've narrowed "the church" down to the Church of Rome, all the Eastern Christian churches, the Anglican churches, the Old Catholic and other Independent Catholic churches, some Lutheran and--possibly also--Methodist churches. That's quite a large. number. In fact, it encompasses a majority of the world's Christians.

 

[Josiah]

@donadams


See posts 7, 16 and 20.


We all KNOW the claims of your church for itself. We all know the "spin." If you don't want to discuss its claims (just parrot them), that's fine but it would be good if you admitted that (it saves the rest of us a lot of time). Your honesty on that point would be appreciated.

And brother, your quoting of Scripture only PROVES to non-Catholics that these claims are not supported by Scripture. You are unintentionally proving their point. As a Catholic, you should not be employing an epistemological principle (Sola Scriptura) that you church rejects and repudiates; you are simply falling into the hands of those who disagree with you.


A blessed Christmas to you and yours...



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[Albion]

@donadams

See posts 7, 16 and 20.

We all KNOW the claims of your church for itself. We all know the "spin." If you don't want to discuss its claims (just parrot them), that's fine but it would be good if you admitted that (it saves the rest of us a lot of time). And brother, your quoting of Scripture only PROVES to non-Catholics that these claims are not supported by Scripture (you are unintentionally) proving their point.
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I'm forced to agree. The steady repetition by our friend of what he has already posted, mainly statements and Bible quotes without any elaboration or application, doesn't get us anywhere.

So, he's apparently a Roman Catholic and wants us to know that he agrees unhesitatingly with whatever that denomination teaches. Swell. Got it. Thanks.

 

[donadams]

Are you saying that you ARE, in fact, a Roman Catholic but take exception to the wording ("have a church")?


In practice, what does this mean...or how does it work?


Meaning what in practice? What does humble subjection [sic] mean in real life; and what exactly are you referring to when you say "His holy church?" If it is a reference to something above the institutional church, I suppose that members of almost every Christian denomination would say that they agree!

The sacred deposit of truth revealed by Christ to his church eph 4:5 Jude 1:3
I’m in the new covenant church but it is not mine but Christ’s

 

[Albion]

The sacred deposit of truth revealed by Christ to his church eph 4:5 Jude 1:3
I’m in the new covenant church but it is not mine but Christ’s

We'll just call that Christianity, then.

 

[donadams]

@Albion

@donadams


Don, please READ post 7, 15 and all this BEFORE responding to any of it. Thank you!


Some points, if I may....


1. It seems are new Catholic brother @donadams has an agenda (regardless of what the thread CLAIMS to be about), and he quickly turns things (derails) to that: the infallible Authority of his church. This is not an easy subject, and some (perhaps including donadams) simply don't want to engage in it.


2. As a former Catholic (and the several other former Catholics here) I can attest, he is simply being Catholic. And I don't fault him for that. Everything in his church is MADE to rest on ONE point: Its' claim of itself that it itself is The Authority, the infallible Authority, and that all must submit to it itself "with docility" (that's the term it uses). Why? Because it claims that it itself alone IS The Authority (even in some sense the same as Jesus). Read CCC 87 for example. The RCC itself, long ago, made this the fundamental basis of itself. It has caused all - everything - to boil down to this claim of itself for itself. Donadams is just parroting that. We've all heard it MANY times. We former Catholics had it DRILLED into us practically from birth.


3. It is, obviously, PURE circular reasoning. There is, of course, NOTHING outside of itself that remotely affirms this. It is never even mentioned (at all, for anything) in Scripture or (clearly) by the earliest church fathers. Indeed, this claim of itself for itself has been one of the chief dividing points in Christianity (leading to a split in 1054 - still by far the biggest split in Christianity).


4. Critics are quick to show the PURE circular reasoning and baselessness of this. And comparing it to various cults, even the great danger in it. They may even show that this is simply to evade accountability and the issue of truth. IMO, this is too harsh. It simply reveals a common view of the western part of the Roman Empire that continued throughout the Middle Ages in the West. The RCC ran with this as hard and fully as it could, including in its struggle for power over the East. True, this epistemology largely disappeared with the Renaissance but by then, all this was made part of the dogma and "DNA" of that denomination. Few Catholics today buy it, but some do (as does our brother).


5. In all honesty, this is NOT an easy subject. It's one of the (very few) issues over which I left The Catholic Church, but I acknowledge the issue of Authority and that that's not an easy subject. I simply hold that there is a BALANCE to very carefully maintain here between Authority and Accountability. I think The Catholic Church does a poor job at that, but maybe we all do. I began a thread on this very topic here: Christianity, Authority and Individualism



Now, NONE of the above takes anything away from my esteem of the Catholic Church as one of the world's denominations. One of the very best. I think it gets a LOT very much right.


A blessed Christmas Season to all....


- Josiah




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Thanks
It’s actually quite simple!

is Jesus Christ King?

 

[donadams]

Okay. You have not answered the questions, so we can only assume that, like any loyal son of the Roman Church, it is the Roman Catholic Church that you are referring to whenever you speak of "only one church," etc.


So, you've narrowed "the church" down to the Church of Rome, all the Eastern Christian churches, the Anglican churches, the Old Catholic and other Independent Catholic churches, some Lutheran and--possibly also--Methodist churches. That's quite a large. number. In fact, it encompasses a majority of the world's Christians.

There is only one new church one church Matt 16:18 Jn 10:16 Christ alone has authority to found the church all others are heretical sects the tradition of men!
How can Unity of faith produce 25000 sects and still claim unity?
Thanks

 

[Josiah]

There is only one new church one church Matt 16:18 Jn 10:16 Christ alone has authority to found the church all others are heretical sects the tradition of men!

I agree. It's one of the reasons I left your church.

How can Unity of faith produce 25000 sects and still claim unity?

One of which is The Catholic Church. It is in disunity with everything. It has "unity" ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY with it itself, and that only currently and only in those matters that it itself currently declares that it itself should agree with it itself concerning. The "unity" that the RCC has is no better and no different than the "unity" that the LDS or JW's have. There is no sect, no cult, no church with less "unity" than The Catholic Church has, and that for one simple reason: It is impossible to have less unity than The Catholic Church has.




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[donadams]

I agree. It's one of the reasons I left your church.





One of which is The Catholic Church. It is in disunity with everything. It has "unity" ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY with it itself, and that only currently and only in those matters that it itself currently declares that it itself should agree with it itself concerning. The "unity" that the RCC has is no better and no different than the "unity" that the LDS or JW's have. There is no sect, no cult, no church with less "unity" than The Catholic Church has, and that for one simple reason: It is impossible to have less unity than The Catholic Church has.




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Is Christ devided?

is Christ king?

 

[Josiah]

Is Christ devided?

Nope. Nor is His church - the one, holy, catholic, communion of all believers. But your church is divided from every part of that church; it has "unity" in no greater way than the LDS has unity; indeed, your church cannot have less unity than it does because that's impossible.

is Christ king?

Of course, but The Catholic Church is not.


Read posts 7, 16 and 20.



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[Albion]

There is only one new church one church Matt 16:18 Jn 10:16 Christ alone has authority to found the church all others are heretical sects the tradition of men!

IF you identify the true church as having bishops in Apostolic Succession--which you did!--then there are quite a few different Christian churches which meet your test.

 

[donadams]

Nope. Nor is His church - the one, holy, catholic, communion of all believers. But your church is divided from every part of that church; it has "unity" in no greater way than the LDS has unity; indeed, your church cannot have less unity than it does because that's impossible.




Of course, but The Catholic Church is not.


Read posts 7, 16 and 20.



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Ok finally we can agree “Jesus Christ is king”!

is Jesus Christ the only head of the church?

 

[donadams]

IF you identify the true church as having bishops in Apostolic Succession--which you did!--then there are quite a few different Christian churches which meet your test.

But only one has valid bishops in union with Peter who is united to Christ

 

[Albion]

But only one has valid bishops in union with Peter who is united to Christ

Of course that's what one of them says about itself! LOL

What's more, your post didn't say that only your own denomination is genuine; instead you referred to Apostolic Succession, and all the churches I named have it. So I responded with that in mind.

 

[donadams]

Of course that's what one of them says about itself! LOL

What's more, your post didn't say that only your own denomination is genuine; instead you referred to Apostolic Succession, and all the churches I named have it. So I responded with that in mind.

Ok but the Bible has no denominations only one true church under one head Christ
Only Christ has authority to found the church all others must be false and the tradition of men
Thanks

 

[Albion]

Ok but the Bible has no denominations only one true church under one head Christ

and we call that one "Christianity."

There's nothing wrong with the word "denominations." It describes various visible, institutional, Christian church bodies. Among them are the Roman Catholic Church, the Greek Orthodox Church, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, the Presbyterian Church (USA), the United Methodist Church, the Southern Baptist Convention, and many more.

 

[SetFree]

Please allow me to take advantage of you’re wisdom and insight in scripture?

why do some verses include the OT reference and other dont?

examples:

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Acts 1:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

But acts 2:39 says “this promise” without any refer to the OT where God made the promise?


what is implied by the word “behold” in the beginning of a verse ?

also truly truly?

can one verse cancel another?
often the case with Mk 16:16
The second part of the verse is used to wipe away the first oart

Can a verse be re-written to accommodate a pet doctrine?
Often the case with Jn 3:5
Born again of water and the spirit often are said to mean born of water born again of the spirit


thanks much

The Acts 2 reference to the OT about God pouring out His Spirit was first given in the Book of Joel chapter 2. In Acts 2, it tells you that is a quote from the Book of Joel if you pay attention...

Acts 2:16-17
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
KJV