Another shooting spree in the USA

[Hammster]

I see them as a tool and not an idol and I think most people do, more weapons in the hands of responsible people would definitely cut down on crime not less

If the Army vet had been armed, how many less dead would we have?

 

[psalms 91]

I believe it would have saved lives, I also think that if more people were armed these nuts would think twice about theuir targets. Just think of how many children would have been saved if the principal or even the teacher in a closet had been armed

 

[MoreCoffee]

True. But that has nothing to do with my question. Not being an American certainly didn't stop you from complaining. So why should it stop you from suggesting a solution?

The call for society is "go and sin no more"; will it be heard and received as true?

 

[MoreCoffee]

So then it's safe to assume that you think that no gun owners pray or are godly.

I know, I know. You didn't really say that. But really you did. If this is a solution, that you must think you've identified the problem.

 

[tango]

The call for society is "go and sin no more"; will it be heard and received as true?

But in the meantime we shouldn't be surprised if the lost people act, you know, lost.

 

[Ruth]

So you'll just complain about the weather. Gotcha.

LOL. I get what you mean!

 

[Biblicist]

True. But that has nothing to do with my question. Not being an American certainly didn't stop you from complaining. So why should it stop you from suggesting a solution?

If by some amazing development where the Federal government was to be empowered by the electorate to have guns removed from the general population (which will never happen), this will not solve the problem as criminals will always be able to access guns or even where many will be able to make their own rudimentary or 3d printer guns at home. The problem is not with weapons but with how the US has degenerated even further into secular humanism; so with the demise of the family and with Christian values we undoubtedly will continue to see a rise in school massacres and with killing in general.

 

[psalms 91]

If by some amazing development where the Federal government was to be empowered by the electorate to have guns removed from the general population (which will never happen), this will not solve the problem as criminals will always be able to access guns or even where many will be able to make their own rudimentary or 3d printer guns at home. The problem is not with weapons but with how the US has degenerated even further into secular humanism; so with the demise of the family and with Christian values we undoubtedly will continue to see a rise in school massacres and with killing in general.

Bingo, exactly right but as we sink further in the mire we will still say PC things about killing babies and taking God out of everything and of course same sex marriage and then people wonder why this country is in the shape it is in.

 

[MarkFL]

...The problem is not with weapons but with how the US has degenerated even further into secular humanism; so with the demise of the family and with Christian values we undoubtedly will continue to see a rise in school massacres and with killing in general.

Interestingly, the most secular nations in the world are among the least violent, while the most religious are the most violent, as supported by such findings:

"Atheism, Secularity, and Well-Being: How the Findings of Social Science Counter Negative Stereotypes and Assumptions"

Zuckerman analyzed a wide array of data comparing religious nations to less religious nations and also, interestingly, religious states within the United States (i.e. "Bible-belt" states) to less religious states. While I encourage readers to examine the article directly through the link above, here are just a few of the highlights:
Criminal Behavior:

Citing four different studies, Zuckerman states: "Murder rates are actually lower in more secular nations and higher in more religious nations where belief in God is widespread." He also states: "Of the top 50 safest cities in the world, nearly all are in relatively non-religious countries."

Within the United States, we see the same pattern. Citing census data, he writes: "And within America, the states with the highest murder rates tend to be the highly religious, such as Louisiana and Alabama, but the states with the lowest murder rates tend to be the among the least religious in the country, such as Vermont and Oregon."

And these findings are not limited to murder rates, as rates of all violent crime tend to be higher in "religious" states. Zuckerman also points out that atheists are very much under-represented in the American prison population (only 0.2%).

Marriage and Family:

Zuckerman cites a 1999 Barna study that finds that atheists and agnostics actually have lower divorce rates than religious Americans.

He also cites another study, in Canada, that found conservative Christian women experienced higher rates of domestic violence than non-affiliated women.

Unprotected Sex:

As for Plante's claim that studies have "consistently " found that religious people are less likely to engage in unprotected sex, that claim is directly refuted by a 2009 study that found the reverse - teens who make religion-inspired "virginity pledges" are not only just as likely as their non-pledging peers to engage in premarital sex, but more likely to engage in unprotected sex.

Other Findings of Interest:

Happiness: The most secular nations in the world report the highest levels of happiness among their population.

Altruism: Secular nations such as those in Scandinavia donate the most money and supportive aid, per capita, to poorer nations. Zuckerman also reports that two studies show that, during the Holocaust, "the more secular people were, the more likely they were to rescue and help persecuted Jews."

Outlooks and Values: Zuckerman, citing numerous studies, shows that atheists and agnostics, when compared to religious people, are actually less likely to be nationalistic, racist, anti-Semitic, dogmatic, ethnocentric, and authoritarian. Secularism also correlates to higher education levels. Atheists and other secular people are also much more likely to support women's rights and gender equality, as well as gay and lesbian rights. Religious individuals are more likely to support government use of torture.

Of course, studies can be cherry-picked to present religiosity in a better light than above, and the point of this article is not to prove the moral superiority of secularism. Nevertheless, whatever Plante wishes to cite, it is impossible to claim that studies "consistently" support his claims of positive social outcomes correlating to religion. To the contrary, the weight of most data seems to indicate that religiosity is a poor indicator of social health or personal virtue.

To Plante's credit, he acknowledges that religion is not necessary for ethical behavior. Still, the thrust of his message attempts to make a case for religion (and implicitly critical of secularism) that simply isn't supported by facts. Most secular individuals would not argue with him when he asserts that religion might help some to be good, and even when he argues that religious institutions can sometimes help toward that end, but such claims do nothing to justify the perpetuation of plain falsehoods regarding atheists, agnostics, and secular humanists, falsehoods that in turn perpetuate prejudice against them.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Interestingly, the most secular nations in the world are among the least violent, while the most religious are the most violent, as supported by such findings:

"Atheism, Secularity, and Well-Being: How the Findings of Social Science Counter Negative Stereotypes and Assumptions"

Saudi Arabia, Bhutan, and Malta appear to contradict the claim about religiosity equating to high national crime rates.

 

[MarkFL]

Saudi Arabia, Bhutan, and Malta appear to contradict the claim about religiosity equating to high national crime rates.

I guess that's why the analysis of the article stated:

Of course, studies can be cherry-picked to present religiosity in a better light than above...

 

[MoreCoffee]

I guess that's why the analysis of the article stated:

I suspect that since most of the world's population follow one religion or another statistics will always show what one wants to see in them. I chose three nations with three different religions - Islam, Hinduism, Christianity - as examples of low crime rate countries which are very religious one is very rich (Saudi Arabia), one middle of the road but still rich (Malta), and one quite poor (Bhutan). Seems to me that religiosity is not the cause of violence any more than Atheism would be in any nation that was majority atheist.

 

[MarkFL]

I suspect that since most of the world's population follow one religion or another statistics will always show what one wants to see in them. I chose three nations with three different religions - Islam, Hinduism, Christianity - as examples of low crime rate countries which are very religious one is very rich (Saudi Arabia), one middle of the road but still rich (Malta), and one quite poor (Bhutan). Seems to me that religiosity is not the cause of violence any more than Atheism would be in any nation that was majority atheist.

I would tend to concede that correlation does not necessarily imply causation. Poverty and education must certainly also be factors. But "falling away from God" cannot be legitimately pointed to as the cause of a rise in violence here in the U.S.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I would tend to concede that correlation does not necessarily imply causation. Poverty and education must certainly also be factors. But "falling away from God" cannot be legitimately pointed to as the cause of a rise in violence here in the U.S.

I agree with your final statement. The USA has a high crime rate compared to many other western nations for reasons that are probably not related to religion and the lack of it. It appears to be a cultural phenomenon that may have a closer link to anxiety about status, race relations, relative wealth, power in the world, individual power and a host of other matters about which people feel anxiety and fear.

 

[pinacled]

No sane and rational society would propose that it is wrong to take away dangerous instruments from one segment of the population without also ending all dangerous practises and confiscating all dangerous instruments from all unqualified persons.

-What does this mean? unqualified persons.
A 5 year old can be taught proper gun safety and handling. Of course even an adult will sometimes forget to keep a rifle pointed down range.

 

[psalms 91]

I agree with your final statement. The USA has a high crime rate compared to many other western nations for reasons that are probably not related to religion and the lack of it. It appears to be a cultural phenomenon that may have a closer link to anxiety about status, race relations, relative wealth, power in the world, individual power and a host of other matters about which people feel anxiety and fear.

When a nation moves away from God and becomes defiant to His chastisement then the fabric of thswt nation slowly begins to unravel such as the USA right now.

 

[TurtleHare]

I would tend to concede that correlation does not necessarily imply causation. Poverty and education must certainly also be factors. But "falling away from God" cannot be legitimately pointed to as the cause of a rise in violence here in the U.S.

With this I agree.

Man is a violent creature and some men more than others especially where circumstances can aggravate and escalate the violent tendencies.

 

[tango]

When a nation moves away from God and becomes defiant to His chastisement then the fabric of thswt nation slowly begins to unravel such as the USA right now.

So why not in Norway and Sweden?

 

[MoreCoffee]

So why not in Norway and Sweden?

Because Norwegians & Swedes are not as gun and violence oriented as USA folk appear to be ... :confused2:

 

[Lizzie TN]

We never learn.

One of two things will happen; 1) We clean up and wait for it to happen again. 2) We know it's coming and do nothing.

One is insanity, one is just sick.