Another shooting spree in the USA

Biblicist

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Many suicide attempts are short term reactions to events or depression.
I have just come across an interesting article which talks about how there has been at least one military suicide per day amongst serving overseas troops. The report also said that at least 18 active soldiers and returned vets attempt to kill themselves each day once they have returned home.

Then there's another article which detailed the killing spree that has been occurring in Chicago where it is now safer for a soldier to fight in Aghanistan than it could be for him to walk the streets of Chicago. As you said previously, "the problem is a cultural issue" where I would add in that if the general population was not allowed to own guns, that these same individuals would probably find an illegal gun or find another way to kill themselves.
 

dogs4thewin

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Yes, still a kind of suicide as you pointed out.
that depends. There are times when a person may shoot in a crowded area say on the city street without themselves wanting to die. It is certainly the case if someone say kills everyone in a house or other small area, but does not kill themselves.
 

dogs4thewin

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I have just come across an interesting article which talks about how there has been at least one military suicide per day amongst serving overseas troops. The report also said that at least 18 active soldiers and returned vets attempt to kill themselves each day once they have returned home.

Then there's another article which detailed the killing spree that has been occurring in Chicago where it is now safer for a soldier to fight in Aghanistan than it could be for him to walk the streets of Chicago. As you said previously, "the problem is a cultural issue" where I would add in that if the general population was not allowed to own guns, that these same individuals would probably find an illegal gun or find another way to kill themselves.
I know that for a fact, as someone who has considered it in the past with a method other than a gun ( more than once). However, that is not the case now.
 

dogs4thewin

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Also, I now think there are only nine dead. ( not that that is not VERY sad or that those nine lives do not matter just that it is less than the 15 first thought.
 

MoreCoffee

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Also, I now think there are only nine dead. ( not that that is not VERY sad or that those nine lives do not matter just that it is less than the 15 first thought.

Yes, the numbers changed as the reporting was less immediate and more accurate.
 

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It was 9 that were killed and 9 seriously injured plus the gunman was killed by police. It is a real problem but this is not representative of typical Americans who are law abiding, generous and kind. There are more than 300 million people in the USA and only a large handful who have done this horrible kind of deed.

I was reading the Australian news the other day and someone cut up someone and lit them on fire killing them, of course. Senseless murders are not unique to the USA.
 

Alithis

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Let me explain something to you if you choose not to defend yourself gun or no gun then that is your business, but you should be willing to defend OTHERS and not tell other people that they may not defend themselves with lethal force if need be.

this displays an attitude of defense of a worldly mindset and absolutely nothing to do with the Gospel nor a life walking in the spirit of God .
 

Alithis

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One can have a firearm without being "fascinated" by it and without idolising it. For the people who use a rifle to hunt deer for food it's hard to see how they would hunt with only a big stick. The rifle is essential for hunting, so the person who wants to keep their rifle isn't making an idol of it any more than the person who wants to keep their car or their laptop.

yes one can .. but few do .
its an old saying ..if you want to test whether something is an idol in a persons life .. shake the shelf they keep it on and see if the run to defend it .
 

tango

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Yes, still a kind of suicide as you pointed out.

True, but a very different situation to someone going home and blowing their brains out or taking all the antidepressants in one hit.
 

tango

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yes one can .. but few do .
its an old saying ..if you want to test whether something is an idol in a persons life .. shake the shelf they keep it on and see if the run to defend it .

Is that fact or speculation?

I fear that calling something an idol may be a little premature in a lot of these cases. If you shook the shelf my antique lamp is on I'd rush to defend it simply because I don't want it broken by someone trying to make a point. That doesn't mean it holds a higher place in my life than God does, just that I don't want it broken through carelessness or idiocy. Calling something an idol just because the owner doesn't want it broken makes no more sense than saying someone demonstrates their lack of faith that God will provide because they have a job.
 

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Many of the Democrats want stricter gun laws but we have those who are conservative and want the right to bear arms. They won't even listen to the argument. That is a good deal of the problem.
 

MarkFL

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The way I see it, gun laws will only affect the law abiding. Guns will always be available to those with cash and no regard for the law. But I don't think gun laws are really the issue. I think we in the U.S. live in a culture where guns are seen as the way to handle problems, going back to the days of the wild west. Look at all the action heroes in our movies that handle their problems by arming themselves to the gills and then taking out all those who stand in their way in a barrage of bullets. And audiences eat it up!

Obviously, the vast majority of us know the difference between fantasy and real life, but for those who are unable to make the distinction, and who have some kind of issue with society, having been indoctrinated from an early age by so much love for firearms, naturally see that as the way to deal with whatever mental struggle they are having.

We are also a society obsessed with fame, and what better way for someone who feels disenfranchised to grab their 15 minutes than to murder a bunch of innocent people?
 

dogs4thewin

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Is that fact or speculation?

I fear that calling something an idol may be a little premature in a lot of these cases. If you shook the shelf my antique lamp is on I'd rush to defend it simply because I don't want it broken by someone trying to make a point. That doesn't mean it holds a higher place in my life than God does, just that I don't want it broken through carelessness or idiocy. Calling something an idol just because the owner doesn't want it broken makes no more sense than saying someone demonstrates their lack of faith that God will provide because they have a job.
thank you thank you and thank you. I know PLENTY of people who own fire arms. I even know one person who owns a gun shop to say that those people value their firearms more than God is out there to say the least.
 

Josiah

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The way I see it, gun laws will only affect the law abiding. Guns will always be available to those with cash and no regard for the law. But I don't think gun laws are really the issue. I think we in the U.S. live in a culture where guns are seen as the way to handle problems, going back to the days of the wild west. Look at all the action heroes in our movies that handle their problems by arming themselves to the gills and then taking out all those who stand in their way in a barrage of bullets. And audiences eat it up!

Obviously, the vast majority of us know the difference between fantasy and real life, but for those who are unable to make the distinction, and who have some kind of issue with society, having been indoctrinated from an early age by so much love for firearms, naturally see that as the way to deal with whatever mental struggle they are having.

We are also a society obsessed with fame, and what better way for someone who feels disenfranchised to grab their 15 minutes than to murder a bunch of innocent people?

I mostly agree....

While I'm in favor of stricter restrictions of gun buying, I think this has very limited effect. The USA seems unable to limit the number of illegal aliens, drugs, etc. - what makes the feds think they can "control" guns for those who WANT them? Why, I understand that guns are pretty easy to make and the parts are easily available - so it's easy to get around actually buying a gun anyway. Truth is: Only good people obey the law - and they ain't the ones who are the problem. We should TRY to keep them away from people who are nuts - but TRY isn't going to accomplish a LOT.

IF gun control was the issue, the District of Columbia would have the least deaths from guns and Montana would have the most - but it's the other way around.


There is something in American culture that is the problem..... another topic for another thread.



- Josiah
 

tango

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The way I see it, gun laws will only affect the law abiding. Guns will always be available to those with cash and no regard for the law. But I don't think gun laws are really the issue. I think we in the U.S. live in a culture where guns are seen as the way to handle problems, going back to the days of the wild west. Look at all the action heroes in our movies that handle their problems by arming themselves to the gills and then taking out all those who stand in their way in a barrage of bullets. And audiences eat it up!

Obviously, the vast majority of us know the difference between fantasy and real life, but for those who are unable to make the distinction, and who have some kind of issue with society, having been indoctrinated from an early age by so much love for firearms, naturally see that as the way to deal with whatever mental struggle they are having.

We are also a society obsessed with fame, and what better way for someone who feels disenfranchised to grab their 15 minutes than to murder a bunch of innocent people?

I read a post on Faceache that was like a breath of fresh air among the endless one-liners and soundbites presented from extreme left and extreme right news sources. The writer basically said that no meaningful discussion can be had between people endlessly posting one-liners and soundbites, and it was time to have a rational discussion that looked to balance opposing desires.

Personally I'm heartily sick of seeing fine-sounding political rhetoric wrapped up in one-liners and soundbites as if they were an answer to anything. I saw one recently that said something like "instead of calling it gun control legislation we should call it anti-massacre legislation". Which sounds well and good on the face of it - after all, who could possibly be opposed to anti-massacre legislation? But take the meme a little further and, like so many others, it starts to break. Let's use the same logic in another setting. I don't like cars, I want to see them banned. But let's not call it car control legislation, let's call it anti-traffic-death legislation. Who could possibly be opposed to legislation to end death on our roads? Er, well, anyone who uses their car most likely. In an instant people would be lining up to say how they needed their car for this or that, and so on.

Another classic line is "you don't need a gun". Well, you don't need a car either. The Amish manage just fine with horse-drawn buggies. You don't need a TV, you don't need a cellphone, you don't need all sorts of things that we've come to take for granted. Of course they make life far easier but the Amish show that it's possible to live with none of those things. But somehow guns are a special class of Things We Don't Need.

Then there's the talk of the "powerful gun lobby" as if the NRA and a handful of gun-toting rednecks wielded enough power to override the wishes of the vast majority of the American people. Except that falls short too, because there certainly seem to be a lot of guns out there and it's safe to assume that the people who own guns don't want their guns taken away. Let's face it, if you didn't think owning a gun was a good idea you wouldn't own a gun - it's not like buying guns is compulsory.

Of course the media is quick to push their agenda, whichever side they support. And politicians on all sides are usually depressingly quick to use tragedy for political gain even if they aren't hugely overt about what they are doing.

Fundamentally the question keeps coming back to the basic issue of what causes one person to actually want to cause so much harm to so many other people? Until we can address that question all we can do is endlessly change legislation in an attempt to force the people who have already made that decision to change the weapon they use to commit their crimes.

Perhaps one place to start looking is the sense that any minor error of judgment is forever held against someone. When we see reports of employers wanting Facebook passwords, relatively minor indiscretions committed during teenage years making it difficult to impossible to get a meaningful job years later and the like, it's easy to see how someone excluded from school (especially over something that wasn't their fault) may see that their life is pretty much over. In a situation like this the hormonal issues teenagers deal with at the best of times are unlikely to help matters. What about if someone loses their job and sees themselves about to lose everything else with it? Since so many people live one or two paychecks from the street it's easy to see how someone who got fired from their job could see a future with no hope.

We also have a horrendous issue with people being so divided. It seems society is becoming ever-more polarised, split along ever-more fault lines where The Other Guy is the wrong side of whatever divide has been created and therefore he is My Enemy. So whether The Other Guy is a different race, a different social class, a different gender, a different political inclination, a different sexual orientation, whatever it is, he must be The Enemy because he is Not Like Me in a clearly defined attribute. And if there are lots of people out there who are Not Like Me and therefore My Enemy, there's an obvious target for the angst turning to hatred that the less stable will experience.

In many ways I wonder if the Rambo-style genre of movies represents too little violence rather than too much. If we look at the first Rambo movie we see a combat veteran mistreated by a smalltown sheriff to the point he loses it and goes on a rampage. Curiously relatively few people are actually killed in the movie but crucially everyone killed or seriously injured, with few exceptions, is pretty much written out of the movie from there on. No sense of watching the person who was shot in the legs trying to rebuild their life with physiotherapy, no sense of the grieving widow and children of the men who were killed, just a sense of "you pushed me, you deserve this, bang bang, move on to the next one"

The dangerous thing about a man with nothing to lose is that, well, he has nothing to lose. If he goes out in the blaze of bullets, what does he lose? If he gets shot by police, or by an armed citizen, part way through his rampage, what does he lose?
 

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I am not a USA chap. I lived there for a while but do not now. It's a matter for USA people to solve.

True. But that has nothing to do with my question. Not being an American certainly didn't stop you from complaining. So why should it stop you from suggesting a solution?
 

Hammster

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Even more effective would be prayer coupled with godliness in life and in attitudes towards others.

So then it's safe to assume that you think that no gun owners pray or are godly.

I know, I know. You didn't really say that. But really you did. If this is a solution, that you must think you've identified the problem.
 

Hammster

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sounds nice but observe the world ..

in the east ..like iraq for instance .. fully armed military do not deter the demonic wickedness of the malcontent.they just elevate from handguns to hidden bombs .. 'you arm the schools and this is what you will see.

prayer will have more effect the a million guns in the hands off the flesh
.

How much prayer? And about what?
 

Hammster

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i personally think america's fascination with weapons of war ,in any form ,is nothing short of idolatry and has no place in the church .

So if the Christians all gave up their guns, no more murder would happen? Or at least no more mass shootings?
 

psalms 91

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I see them as a tool and not an idol and I think most people do, more weapons in the hands of responsible people would definitely cut down on crime not less
 
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