A Gutsy Preacher

Lamb

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Yes, when someone makes a claim, the burden cannot legitimately be shifted onto others who simply reject that claim to prove the negation of that claim.

Let's return to the Sahara...you and I are standing on the edge looking out over the vast expanse of sand. I turn to you and claim that the number of grains of sand contained within the desert is even. The burden of proof is on me to prove this claim, if you simply reject it, and I wish to convince you of the truth of my claim. Now, if you claim that the number is odd, only then do you also have a burden of proof. But if you merely reject the claim you have no burden of proof, since you are not claiming knowledge. Your only position, in the absence of evidence of the number of grains, is that we don't know whether the number is odd or even, and that you have no reason to accept my claim.

What if you're blind to the grains of sand and don't see them and can't reach them because you are on the edge of a high rock and cannot get down to the sand (just for another type of example)? Then what?
 

MarkFL

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What if you're blind to the grains of sand and don't see them and can't reach them because you are on the edge of a high rock and cannot get down to the sand (just for another type of example)? Then what?

If we can't see the sand, then why would we make any claim regarding something we don't know is there? At that point we could only guess if there is any sand or not (or have faith that the sand is there based on the writings of an ancient book). One could claim that sand is there, but that claim could easily and legitimately be rejected if there is no way of seeing the sand in the first place. There would be no need to prove the sand isn't there.
 

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What if you're blind to the grains of sand and don't see them and can't reach them because you are on the edge of a high rock and cannot get down to the sand (just for another type of example)? Then what?

If you don't know that you're blind you might say it's rubbish, there is no sand. If you do know, you trust the other person who sees it. Went on a date with a blind man once. Never had a guy listen to me so well and ask me to lead him. I walked the wrong direction, he guided us back with his phone with a talking Tom Tom: turn left here, turn right there.
 

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What if you're blind to the grains of sand and don't see them and can't reach them because you are on the edge of a high rock and cannot get down to the sand (just for another type of example)? Then what?

I think if I'm on the edge of a high rock and you're making claims about the sand below you'd need to back your claims. It certainly wouldn't be my job to provide proof to refute the claims.

Of course if I couldn't see the sand the obvious thing to do would be to invite me to come and see it, to walk on it, to feel it between my toes, to build sandcastles out of it, to experience it for myself. That makes far more sense than trying to come up with some kind of proof, especially when proof would do nothing other than provide a theoretical knowledge that the sand exists.

In the same way even if we could provide proof that would convince the most hardened skeptic that God exists, what have we achieved? If we persuade someone that God exists but they still don't know anything about this mysterious being how is the newfound knowledge, without any doubt at all, that this mysterious divine being exists of any value to them? It seems to have no more value than the inner city kid knowing that there's a beautiful countryside out there when you can run and play and breathe fresh air, but also knowing they haven't experienced it and may never experience it.
 

Lamb

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But the sand still exists though. Proof or not. It's not like once proof is given that sand suddenly exists.

One major point that needs to be addressed is that mere knowing that God exists is not salvation to man. Salvation points to the Savior and the forgiveness won at the cross. The first commandment God gave in the Old Testament was about Him being the Lord our God but the entire bible points to His plan to save us from our sins.
 

Josiah

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Hm, if they want proof I just pray that He gives them proof. I wanted proof too. Nothing wrong with it. It was only wrong when the pharisees asked for proof, their heart wasn't good. They only got the sign of Jonah. To the rest He said: if you don't believe My Words believe because of the miracles. I'm afraid the ball is with the christians to show the world He lives. Btw the world would believe if we were one.


The issue clearly is: the double standard, the contradiction. Mark has stated that this recent "stipping" of words of their meanings has been done "so that theists understand that when someone says they are an atheist, this doesn't necessarily mean the atheist is in the same boat regarding burden of proof." This very odd, nonsensical, illogical position of "Atheist/Agnostic" exists so that the Atheist can dodge the "burden of proof", accountability, responsibility. So that the Atheist can continue the obsession on proof, this constant rant that Theist must prove the position (using ONLY "evidence" that the Atheist beleives is real - thus insuring the inability of the Theist) but, but, but, but, BUT.... the Atheist has no "burden of proof."


Mark states that an Theist is one who state that God is. Yup (finally!). Ergo, an Atheist must be one who states God is not. Anytime in epistemology, when a "A" (not, no) is placed in front, it negates it, rejects it, says an equally dogmatic "NO" "NOT". Mark has admitted this (thus the reason for the "stripping"). But the "burden of proof" belongs on only one side - the Theist position since these few new "Atheists" insist on dodging the same burden, the same insistence, the same accountability..... the Atheist needs to say "God is NOT but I need not uphold my position...... you say GOD IS and so you must prove your posiition, the burden of proof applies." These Atheist have just got out of the boat they INSIST we are in.

I asked for many, many pages what is the PURPOSE of this new semantic gymnastics, this new nonsensical position of "Atheist/Agnostic".... Tigger (a former Atheist) came up with a reasonable theory which Mark much later confirmed. The Theist can continue their obsession with Theist being mandated to PROVE their position, to be responsible and accountable for it..... but this only works one way now; this new nonesenical position means the opposite can just dodge back and forth between the two mutually exclusive positions of Atheist and Agnostic in order to both HAVE and NOT HAVE a position - have to attack, have not to avoid the proof they insist on.



- Josiah



.
 
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Rens

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The issue clearly is: a double standard, a contradiction. Mark has stated that this recent "stripping" of words of their meanings has been done "so that theists understand that when someone says they are an atheist, this doesn't necessarily mean the atheist is in the same boat regarding burden of proof." This very odd, nonsensical position of "Atheist/Agnostic" exists so that the Atheist can dodge the "burden of proof", accountability, responsibility. So that the Atheist can continue the obsession on proof, that Theist must prove God exists (using ONLY "evidence" that the Atheist beleives is real - thus insuring the inability of the Theist) but, but, but, but, but.... the Atheist has no "burden of proof."


And we finally see that this "stripping" of meaning that Mark relates a few have recently done actually is irrelevant because he stated that an Theist is own who state that God is - ergo, an Atheist must be one who states God is not. Anytime in epistemology, when a "A" (not, no) is placed in front, it negates it, rejects it, says an equally dogmatic "NO" "NOT". But the "burden of proof" belongs on only one side - the Theist position since these few new "Atheists" insist on dodging the same burden, the same insistence, the same accountability..... the Atheist needs to say "God is NOT but I need not uphold my position...... you say GOD IS and so you must prove your posiition, the burden of proof applies."



- Josiah
Hmm, I don't know if they did that with that reason. You can just ask in a conversation, everyone has a different meaning of it, so maybe they wanted to make it more clear.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2013/04/after-the-new-atheism/
It's like with feminism, that meaning also changed through the years and everyone has a different meaning of it, because you don't want to be attached to that group of weirdo's. I hate feminism, yet when a guy would expect me to clean up after him and shut up, ehmmmmm yeah others would call me a feminist maybe. I'd run.
 

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Josiah, your posts are a chore to quote because of your excessive use of spacing (you should have noticed by now that vBulletin automatically strips excessive spaces when displaying post content) and abuse of newlines, however, I will labor through it.

The issue clearly is: the double standard, the contradiction.

It is obvious at this point that you did not watch the video I posted. You have decided you are not going to learn anything, that you are correct and no one is going to correct you or teach you anything new. You feel there is a double standard because you carry a burden of proof, whereas someone who rejects your claim does not. Sorry, but that's just how it works. Otherwise, anyone could make any unfalsifiable claim they want and it would stand because no one could falsify it. I don't understand why you refuse to see this.

As for any contradiction, I don't know what you're referring to.

Mark has stated that this recent "stipping" of words of their meanings has been done "so that theists understand that when someone says they are an atheist, this doesn't necessarily mean the atheist is in the same boat regarding burden of proof." This very odd, nonsensical, illogical position of "Atheist/Agnostic" exists so that the Atheist can dodge the "burden of proof", accountability, responsibility. So that the Atheist can continue the obsession on proof, this constant rant that Theist must prove the position (using ONLY "evidence" that the Atheist believes is real - thus insuring the inability of the Theist) but.... the Atheist has no "burden of proof."

Again, had you bothered to watch the video I posted on burden of proof, you wouldn't be so hopelessly confused here regarding who has the burden of proof and why. However, it is also obvious you aren't actually reading my posts either, you have your fingers firmly planted in your ears and are chanting "la la la la la" and then when i or others are done, you simply repeat your misconceptions.

Mark states that an Theist is one who state that God is. Yup (finally!).

I never said otherwise, had you bothered to actually read my posts.

Ergo, an Atheist must be one who states God is not.

Wrong, an atheist is anyone who rejects theism:

a - without

theism - the claim that god/gods exist.

Anytime in epistemology, when a "A" (not, no) is placed in front, it negates it, rejects it, says an equally dogmatic "NO" "NOT".

Wrong...see above.

But the "burden of proof" belongs on only one side

Yes, it belongs only with the one actually making a claim. Watch that video.

As I said, until you can put aside your pride and come to terms with the fact that there might be something you can learn here, you will struggle in any conversation with someone who has a good grasp of what atheism actually is and why the atheist (with the exception of "hard" atheists) has no burden of proof. I understand why you want to saddle those who reject your claim with a burden of proof, but it is intellectually dishonest.
 

Josiah

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that you are correct and no one is going to correct you or teach you anything new.


Friend,

You are the one who stat"ed that these few folks have recently "stripped" the words of their meaning. It's not my claim, it's yours.

And IMO you stated that the reason is so that Atheist can avoid the "burden of proof" that they insist the opposite position has. It's YOUR claim (not mine) that Atheists have now claimed their position has no burden of proof - the same burden of proof or at all.

IMO, I've simply noted what you said. For a long, long time I asked WHY this gymnatics, this "stripping" you stated has been recently done by some, the REASON for this recent creation of this (to me entirely nonsensical) postion of "Atheist - Agnsotic" and for just as long, you evaded it. Tigger wrote a powerful post (he's a former Atheist) which you chose to ignore but eventually, it seems to me, you confirmed exactly what he stated.




You feel there is a double standard because you carry a burden of proof


ALL propositions carry a "burden of proof" - it's just as you noted, some recently have stripped words and now claim that all positions have a burden of proof - except one: Atheism. Hum. They now insist the theists (God is) have an extreme, radical burden of proof - but the antithesis (Atheism) does not - they've decided recently to exit the boat, to not place themselves in "the same boat." I think the reason for that is obvious.



As for any contradiction, I don't know what you're referring to.


AGAIN........ "the number of sands on the beach is odd and I have no position on whether the number of grains of sand on the beach is odd or even." "There is no life on Mars and I have no position on whether there is life on Mars." "There is no God and I have no position on whether the divine is or is not." You see those as consistent, logical. I see them as nonsensical, illogical, absurd.... and surely done with some intent.


And again.... "BELIEVE" is not a proposition and NEVER has ANY burden of proof. I can say "I BELIEVE my wife will cook tonight" but it is impossible to prove whether I BELEIVE that or not, but it's irrelevant since BELIEF is not a proposition and has no burden. What we are discussing are the two opposite, antithetical propositions: GOD IS..... GOD IS NOT. One is called "Theism" and one is, by necessity, called "Atheism." In epistemology, the antithesis always has an "A" in front (from the Greek meaning NO, NOT). And yes, there is a third option: No position, no verdict "I don't know if there is life on Mars or not - both are possible, neither seems confirmed" a position that is called "Agnosticism" (a term that applies in epistemology to ALL propositional statements - the "neutral" position is always "Agnosticism" (it's not just a term used in this debate over the divine). But these are 3 mutually exclusive positions, impossible and illogical and nonsenical to combine.

But as you noted, these few who recently played this semantic gymnastics, who recently invented this new position of Atheism/Agnosticism was invented so that the one so labeling his/her proposition can leave the boat of accountability, can deny SELF the burden of proof - but no other. See Tigger's very insightful post.



Wrong, an atheist is anyone who rejects theism

Correct. A (no, not) Theos (God). No God, God is not.

It's NOT the same as Agnosticism: A (no, not) Gnosis (certainty, a position is held)




a - without

theism - the claim that god/gods exist.

Correct again. Atheism = God is not.


it belongs only with the one actually making a claim.


It's the one with a proposition who has the burden of proof.


I understand why you want to entirely strip one proposition of a burden of proof yet insist the antithesis fully has that burden, but it is intellectually dishonest. And it's a game, a dodge.




- Josiah



.
 
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MarkFL

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You sure are as tenacious as you are dead wrong. It's okay to be wrong...all of us are wrong from time to time, but it's not okay to be wrong, and to be shown by others (more than one) that you are wrong and why and not learn from it. I have absolutely no respect for that.
 

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I think Mark's made a whole lot more sense than you in the conversation, josiah
So help me out here MC. I'm a simple guy so I like to keep things simple. I haven't seen you come right out and answer this but do you accept the term agnostic atheist?
 

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So help me out here MC. I'm a simple guy so I like to keep things simple. I haven't seen you come right out and answer this but do you accept the term agnostic atheist?

"Agnostic atheist" seems like a noun turned into an adjective and then applied to a noun. Agnostic is usually accounted to be a noun. Atheist is usually accounted to be a noun. So agnostic atheist reads like "horse cow".

Mark says he is an atheist and I believe he is telling the truth. Mark says he makes no claim that God does not exist and that appears to be true because I have seen no such claim from him. Mark says he worships no gods believes in none. Not even one. Isn't that atheism?

Agnostic-atheist appears to be intended to mean something like an atheist who makes no claim to know if God does exist or if God does not exist but since many atheists say that they do not believe in God and see no evidence for the existence of God - I think that they are speaking of scientific/experimental/verifiable evidence such as one gathers for Physics and Chemistry - that is all they need to say. That's fair enough. The philosophical foundation for that kind of atheism is like philosophical materialism but not exactly the same as it. It's core is to think in terms of matter and energy and what can be detected and/or measured by instruments or may be deduced by measurements even if direct detection is not (yet) possible. Christian faith is about God who created matter, energy, all that is detectable and even some things that are not detectable in terms of matter & energy. Christians believe God IS. Not that he is a being like others but greater than any other. God is the source of being but he is not a being like any created being. God's existence is not of creation and ought not be expected to be detectable by instruments rooted in creation.
 

MarkFL

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This may help those who are open to learning:


Many have trouble comprehending that "not believing X" (not believe gods exist) doesn't mean the same as "believing not X" (believe gods do not exist). The placement of the negative is key: the first means not having the mental attitude that proposition X (gods exist) is true, the second means having the mental attitude that proposition X (gods exist) is false. The difference here is between disbelief and denial: the first is disbelief in the broad or narrow sense whereas the second is denial.

The distinction here should be relatively simple and straightforward, but it's difficult to explain when someone doesn't automatically "get it." The stumbling block for many people seems to be the assumption that when faced with any given proposition, the only options are to either believe that it is true or believe that it is false — so when faced with the question of whether any gods exist, a person must believe that either at least one god exists or believe that it is false that any gods exist (in other words, deny that any gods exist).

This is incorrect. It may be that most of the propositions that come immediately to mind are those which we either positively believe are true or deny as false, but there are a myriad of other propositions which don't fall into either category. A little careful thinking about a couple of hypothetical scenarios may help reveal how this is the case.

An Atheist's Yellow Shirt

Do you believe that I am wearing a yellow shirt? To put the question more technically, do you believe the proposition "Austin is wearing a yellow shirt" is true? It's a simple question where the meanings of all the terms are relatively straightforward, so there shouldn't be any issue with comprehension. There are lots of people wearing yellow shirts every day, so there is no issue with logical or physical impossibility.

The biggest problem is ignorance: you really have no way of knowing what I am wearing right now. I might not even be wearing a shirt, never mind a yellow one. There's just no reasonable basis for you to believe that I am wearing a yellow shirt. You should believe that it's possible that I'm wearing a yellow shirt, and you might reasonably believe that I sometimes wear a yellow shirt, but you shouldn't believe that I am wearing one right now.

By the same token, though, you also shouldn't believe that the proposition "Austin is wearing a yellow shirt" is false. Your ignorance of what I am wearing should prevent you from denying this proposition the same way it prevents you from affirming it. As you can see, not believing that this proposition is true isn't the same as believing the proposition is not true: not affirming that I am wearing a yellow shirt doesn't entail denying that I am wearing a yellow shirt.

This describes the most basic level of disbelief: you don’t actively believe my claim, but you don’t deny it either. Many atheists take this position with respect to theistic claims when those claims are too vague or incoherent to adequately evaluate. Obviously such claims don’t merit rational belief, but there simply isn’t enough substance to say anything more about them.

Visiting Canada

A broader range of responses to a proposition can be seen through a more complicated scenario. If I tell you that I visited Canada last week, would you believe me? Visiting Canada is common and unremarkable, so there is no reason to think that my statement is false, but, you also have no reason to think it is true. You could accept me at my word, but you could just accept my claim as plausible without giving it further thought, much less believing it is true.

We can modify my claim to state that I crawled from my house to Canada. Again, such a feat is logically possible — but it also isn’t very likely. Why would anyone do such a thing? While you might step right up to assert that my claim is false, a more cautious position would be to “reject belief in” my claim pending further evidence and support. You aren’t actively believing it (because it seems implausible) but you aren’t denying it either (because it’s not impossible).

Once again, not believing that a proposition is true doesn't entail believing that the proposition is false. This narrower form of disbelief is also a common atheistic reaction to theistic claims. In such cases the claims are coherent and understandable, but there is a lack of substantive support — for example, actual evidence to back the claims up. Lacking sufficient evidence to warrant rational belief, the atheist does not adopt the belief — but the atheist also does not necessarily deny the claim due to a similar lack of contrary evidence. The reaction, then, is to simply “reject belief in” the claim because the theist offers no good reasons to believe.

Belief vs. Disbelief vs. Denial

It should be fairly clear now that there are more that while there is no middle ground between the presence or absence of belief that some proposition is true, it's not the case that one has to either positively affirm or actively deny that any given proposition is true. Disbelief in a proposition may be nothing more than the absence of belief that the proposition is true and this may be due to nothing more than ignorance of the proposition, though it may be due to other reasons, like a desire to think longer about it or gather more evidence.

Disbelief in a proposition might go a bit further as the active rejection of belief that it is true, but without going so far as to actively deny that it is true. Denying that a proposition is true is the same as affirming that it's contradictory proposition is true but the evidence might not warrant this any more than affirming the truth of the original claim.

Once again, there are any number of possible reasons for why a person might refuse to accept a proposition as true without also asserting the contradictory is true — they don't even have to be good reasons. What matters is the fact that a failure or refusal to believe a proposition, including the proposition that some god is true, doesn't require that one assert that that proposition s false.

Continued in next post...
 

MarkFL

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Question:

Isn't not believing in any gods the same as believing there are no gods?

Response:

People’s misunderstanding about the nature of atheism can sometimes be traced to a misunderstanding about the nature of disbelief. Comprehensive dictionaries generally define atheism as the “disbelief in or denial of the existence of gods,” and atheists commonly refer to atheism as simply not believing in any gods — but is not believing something the same as denying it?

Certainly disbelief and denial aren’t considered the same in the dictionaries, otherwise they wouldn’t need to list both. In the Oxford English Dictionary, for example, the primary definition of “disbelieve” is simply “not believe” and the secondary definition is “reject belief in.” Both of these meanings are distinct from “deny,” which is not listed. Both of these also match the definition used for “weak atheism,” which is to lack belief in the existence of any gods.

Logically speaking, mere disbelief in the truth of a proposition cannot be treated as equivalent to the belief that the proposition is false and that the opposite is true.

If you make a claim and I disbelieve it, I am not necessarily saying that your claim is false. I may not understand it well enough to say one way or the other. Or I may lack enough information to test your claim. Or I may simply not care enough to think about it.

All of these are, of course, possible reactions of an atheist to theistic claims. The atheist may not understand what the theist means by “god” or by certain characteristics of the god (omnipotence, omniscience, etc.). The atheist may not have enough information to determine whether the claim is credible. Or, perhaps, the atheist may find the claim so incredible that it simply isn’t worth thinking about more deeply.

As we can see, not only are disbelief and denial different things, but there are different levels to disbelief, just as there are to belief. If you are interested in learning in what sense a particular atheist “disbelieves” in a god, you will have to ask. Different atheists disbelieve in different ways and for different reasons.

Question:

How can atheists be so certain that God doesn't exist?

Response:

When theists ask how and why atheists can be certain that no gods exist, they do so under the mistaken assumption that all atheists deny the existence or possible existence of any gods and that such denial is based upon certainty. Although this is true of some atheists, it is not true of all; indeed, it seems unlikely that it is true of most or even a significant minority of atheists. Not all atheists deny the existence of all gods and not all of those who do claim absolute certainty.

So, the first thing to understand is that atheism is simply a matter of lacking belief in the existence of gods. An atheist might go further and deny the existence of some, many, or all gods, but this isn't necessary for the "atheist" label to apply. Whether or not an atheist does go that extra step with regards to any particular god depends upon how "god" is defined. Some definitions are too vague or incoherent to reasonably deny or affirm; others are clear enough that denial is not only possible, but necessary.

The same is true for whether or not an atheist claims to be certain in their denial of the existence of any gods. Certainty is a pretty big word and many atheists consciously model their approach to the existence of gods on the naturalistic, skeptical methodology of science where "certainty" is typically avoided except where it is unquestionably warranted. In science, belief is proportioned to the evidence and every conclusion is considered basically provisional because new evidence in the future might, in theory, force us to change our beliefs.

If an atheist is going to claim certainty in their denial of the existence of gods, it will often be because there is no logically possible evidence that could force a change in their conclusions. It may, however, also simply be a position based on probability: in the world outside of science, most people are willing to claim "certainty" if contrary evidence is extremely unlikely and not just impossible. Either way, though, the definition which a theist uses for "god" will play a critical role in what sorts of conclusions and certainty an atheist is likely to draw.

Some theists define their god in a way which is logically contradictory — much like claiming that their god is a "square circle." Square circles cannot exist because they are logically impossible. If a god is defined in a way which is logically impossible, then we can say "this god does not exist" with a great deal of certainty. There is no way that we will ever come across evidence which points to the reality of something that is logically impossible or impossible by definition.

Other people define their god in such a way that it is, quite frankly, impossible to understand. Terms used are too vague to pin down and concepts used don't seem to go anywhere. Indeed, sometimes this incomprehensibility is touted as a specific quality and maybe even as an advantage. In such situations, it just isn't possible to adopt a rational belief in such a god. As defined, at least, such a god might be denied with some certainty because the chances of having evidence pointing to an incomprehensible god are pretty low. Most atheists, though, will simply refuse to believe or deny such gods.

So, how can atheists be certain that no gods exist? A person doesn't have to be certain of the nonexistence of gods in order to be an atheist, but just as important is the fact that most people aren't absolutely certain of many of the things they believe or disbelieve. We don't have perfect and irrefutable proof of most things in our lives, but that doesn't stop us from navigating the world as best we can.

A person doesn't need absolute and perfect certainty in order to be either an atheist or a theist. What should be required, however, are very good reasons for whatever direction a person goes. For atheists, those reasons are at the very least the failure of theists to make a good enough case for either theism generally or any specific form of theism to warrant adoption.

Theists on the whole think that they have good reasons for their beliefs, but I have yet to encounter an alleged god which warrants my belief. I don't have to be certain that those claimed gods don't exist in order to be an atheist, all I need is to lack good reasons to bother believing. Perhaps someday that will change, but I've been at this long enough that I rather doubt it will.

Taken from:

Not Believing vs. Believing Not - The Difference Between Disbelief and Denial
 

Rens

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God's existence is not of creation and ought not be expected to be detectable by instruments rooted in creation.

Yet Romans 1 says:
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead

It has to be possible to prove He exists. I'm not intelligent enough for that though. Isn't this girl great? Instead of starting a discussion and putting the ball with him she just gives him proof and prays for him to see it.

https://youtu.be/hBLltwJDoX4
 

MarkFL

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Romans 1:20 appears to me to be a classic design argument ("creation" implies a creator)...and this is how atheists typically respond to such arguments:


The Design Argument is probably the most popular argument for the existence of God. Even a nonreligious person may look at the world, so complex and beautiful, and decide it must have been created by somebody very smart and powerful. Voltaire and Thomas Jefferson thought religions were absurd, but even they thought there must have been some kind of Creator.

But there are some problems with this argument.

First, Christians do not argue for God in general, but for a specific god: Yahweh. They’re really saying, “The world is complex, so Yahweh must have created it.” But we might as well say, “The world is complex, so Mbombo must have created it.” Or, “The world is complex, so an alien race must have designed it.”

Even if it succeeds, the Design Argument only gets you as far as a Creator. It does not support the existence of Yahweh any better than it supports a million other possible creators. And given how much bad design there is in the world, I think it’s more likely to have been designed by a confused committee of gods than a single, all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good god. Our world looks like the work of Congress.

Design in the world says nothing about Yahweh, revelation, miracles, prayer, virgin birth, sin, redemption, or Jesus.

Emergent systems

But there is another, more basic way in which the Design Argument suffers from special thinking. There are many complex things that are not designed. Why infer design from a complex universe when we cannot infer it from other complex things?

Complex things that were not designed are called “emergent systems,” because their complexity emerges from simple – sometimes random – rules.

We have a hard time thinking about emergent systems. It’s easier for us to think of a carpenter building something than a complex system emerging from thousands of simple interactions.

Biological evolution is one such emergent system, and a highly impressive one, but it’s far from the only one. Let’s look at some others.

Simple physical rules grow crystals and snowflakes into extremely complex and organized forms, often perfect geometric shapes.

One termite species builds colonies that are 90 times as high as they are long! But termites have no architects or engineers, just simple rules of behavior and millions of tiny interactions.

Human language is another example. Noah Webster did not design the English language. It emerged from millions of human communications over hundreds of years, and continues to evolve today. Yet it looks very much as though it was designed for beauty and function.

Argument from ignorance

Weather offers more examples of emergent systems. A tornado may look like the finger of God, but it’s just a particular collision of warm and cool air. Lightning looks like God’s Amazing Laser Show, but it emerges from simple electrical charges. Ancient peoples probably saw tornadoes and lightning as proofs of God, because they did not understand air pressure and electricity. Should we accept other complex things as proofs of God just because there are many things we don’t yet understand?

In this way, the Argument from Design is a “God of the gaps” argument. We can’t simply fill the gaps in our knowledge with “God,” for the same reason it was wrong for the ancient Greeks to plug the gaps in their knowledge with “Zeus.”
A big trend

And there’s another problem. Sure, it’s possible that consciousness or something else we don’t yet understand isn’t an emergent system, but is really governed by magic. Possible. But very unlikely.

Here’s why. History has been one long story of us replacing supernatural explanations with natural ones. It has happened tens of thousands of times. Why crops grow; why the sun rises and sets; why floods happen; why eclipses happen; why disease spreads; why kids look like their parents; why seizures happen. All these and more were once explained by gods or spirits. Today we know their natural causes.

Now, how many times has a natural explanation been replaced by a supernatural one?

Exactly zero times.

Given this pattern, it’s possible we’ll find a supernatural explanation for consciousness or whatever, but very unlikely. Don’t retreat to the possible. We want to know what is likely to be true.

Isn’t God complex?

There is yet another kind of special thinking in the Design Argument. Christians argue that complexity implies design, so the complexity of the world implies a Designer. But wait a minute. If a Designer was smart enough to design a universe, wouldn’t the Designer have to be extremely complex, too? By the Christian’s own logic, then, the Designer must have had a Designer. And that Designer must have had a Designer. And on into infinity, which is absurd.

Summary

The Design Argument may sound good at first, but a close look shows that it suffers from special thinking in many ways. First, there is no reason to infer any particular god from a complex world, or even one god instead of a committee.

Second, complexity does not imply design. There are thousands of complex, functional things that are not designed.1

Third, the Design Argument is another argument from ignorance. Even a Christian does not accept any other kind of argument from ignorance: “We don’t understand how salamanders can grow back their tails, therefore Quezelcoatl does it.” Ignorance is no argument. It is a complete lack of argument.

Fourth, supernatural explanations have always been replaced by natural ones. So it’s very unlikely that natural phenomena will be found to have supernatural causes.

Fifth, if complexity implies a designer, then what of the infinitely complex God? Who designed him?

However good it sounds, the Design Argument fails many times over when you apply the same logic you’d apply to anything else – when you apply common sense.
 

Rens

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Yes it doesn't prove that God did it. You can only prove that by doing a miracle in His Name that is convincing enough. Lol I once asked some Dutch atheists what would convince them. One said: oh just a splitting of the Red See or something like that lol.

I thought this was smart though (although I wonder if this would have convinced me):

http://cosmicfingerprints.com/prove-god-exists/
 
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